wait for ps5 or ps4 pro

[Astralis Fanboy]

Hi.

I wanna buy a ps4 pro on black friday to play games such as uncharted, god of war, and red dead redemption 2. 

Yet, i don't know if i should just wait for the ps5.

I'm fine with waiting for it, but there are certainly ps4 games that i wanna play.

Therefore, i wanna ask: will the ps5 have backwards compatibility? Is it likely at all?

Also, i would not buy the ps5 on release day. I'd at least wait a couple of months for the prices to fall a bit.

ps4 pro or ps5?

[PlayStation 2]

Haven't a damn clue; we know jack shit about the PS5, or if it'll even exist.

Might as well get a PS4 Pro.

[TechMasterMind]

*Invalid*

[NelizMastr]

7 minutes ago, TechMasterMind said:

Get a PC quite honestly, as it dosn't sound like you're getting a playstation for friends?

The games he listed are PlayStation exclusives, in case you missed that detail.

 

21 minutes ago, Astralis Fanboy said:

Hi.

I wanna buy a ps4 pro on black friday to play games such as uncharted, god of war, and red dead redemption 2. 

Yet, i don't know if i should just wait for the ps5.

I'm fine with waiting for it, but there are certainly ps4 games that i wanna play.

Therefore, i wanna ask: will the ps5 have backwards compatibility? Is it likely at all?

Also, i would not buy the ps5 on release day. I'd at least wait a couple of months for the prices to fall a bit.

ps4 pro or ps5?

Even if the PS5 gets released, it won't be before 2020 (maybe xmas 2019 or whatever), and you can bet it won't be PS4 compatible. get the PS4 Pro.

[TechMasterMind]

1 minute ago, NelizMastr said:

The games he listed are PlayStation exclusives, in case you missed that detail.

 

Even if the PS5 gets released, it won't be before 2020 (maybe xmas 2019 or whatever), and you can bet it won't be PS4 compatible. get the PS4 Pro.

I feel like an idiot I dunno I just kinda skipped over that somehow?!? Must be running on autopilot how do I delete post comments?

[NelizMastr]

10 minutes ago, TechMasterMind said:

I feel like an idiot I dunno I just kinda skipped over that somehow?!? Must be running on autopilot how do I delete post comments?

You don't. You either edit the comment to show nothing (but my quote doesn't change, mind you) or get it removed by an admin. We all make mistakes, don't worry about it  

[TechMasterMind]

Just now, NelizMastr said:

You don't. You either edit the comment to show nothing (but my quote doesn't change, mind you) or get it removed by an admin. We all make mistakes, don't worry about it  

OK, thanks a million! c:

[TacoSenpai]

Yeah there hasn't been anything on a PS5 even existing.  I honestly have no clue what Microsoft or Sony will do console wise.  I mean feasibly Sony could just power up and make a PS5 with the exclusives they have and consequently make it better at VR. 

 

 

So PS4 pro now i guess?

[Majinhoju]

If those exclusives are appealing enough, just get the ps4 pro and enjoy it.  There's been no announcement on ps5 yet so you'll be waiting a while.

[SteveGrabowski0]

You're going to be waiting at least two years for a PS5 most likely. And PS5 won't start getting big discounts until they shrink the lithography. So you could be waiting a couple more years after launch if you want a budget PS5.

[Stefan Payne]

6 hours ago, Astralis Fanboy said:

Hi.

I wanna buy a ps4 pro on black friday to play games such as uncharted, god of war, and red dead redemption 2. 

Yes, no alternative for that.

6 hours ago, Astralis Fanboy said:

Yet, i don't know if i should just wait for the ps5.

That's at least 2 years away. Or more.

 

6 hours ago, Astralis Fanboy said:

Therefore, i wanna ask: will the ps5 have backwards compatibility? Is it likely at all?

It is possible as the Hardware isn't that much different on PS4 than 5.

You can expect both be using AMD APUs. 

6 hours ago, NelizMastr said:

and you can bet it won't be PS4 compatible. get the PS4 Pro.

I wouldn't bet on it right now tbh.

Because there is no need or technical reason for it to be that way.

 

For PS2 to be incompatible to PS3 is a technical reason.

For PS3 to be incompatible to PS4 is a technical reason

For PS4 to be incompatible to PS5 is NOT a technical reason

 

Because both will use AMD APUs, CPUs will be binar compatible.

 

So there is a possibility for PS4 Games to run on PS5.

[ono]

Judging from past PS consoles, PS4 will still have some life after PS5 launches (speculation: in two years) so I wouldn't worry about getting a PS4 now. I speculate there will be backwards compatibility, as rumored specs suggest it'll maintain the same architecture (from public commits to Git on tools Sony uses in their dev chain) and are at least looking into backwards compatibility (they have recent patent filings relating backwards compatibility). So good chance your investment in games will carry forward should you upgrade in the future, should keeping your PS4 not be an option.

[SpriteNo5]

If you want to play the exclusives then get the PS4, no point in waiting for PS5. Too many games will release between now and then so, even if you could play these games on PS5, you likely won't.

 

Can't see PS5 being backwards compatible, they'll want to sell their games via digital back catalogue and/or streaming service. 

[Stefan Payne]

1 hour ago, SpriteNo5 said:

Can't see PS5 being backwards compatible, they'll want to sell their games via digital back catalogue and/or streaming service. 

PS1 games run on PS2 + all PS3

PS2 Games run on first gen PS3

Just PS3 games didn't run on PS4 because it would have been too expensive and Sony went for low price/good  deal.

 

While PS1 and two used MIPS CPUs, PS3 used something from the Power PC side. In this case they used an ancient nVidia GPU based on the crappy CineFX Architecture.

And the PS4 was also completely new and based on x86 and now with an AMD GPU.

 

PS5 will still be based on x86 so binary compatible with PS4 Games.

PS5 will still be based on an AMD GPU, though newer designs, though it might be possible to implement a backward compatible mode.

 

So there is absolutely NO technical REASON for PS4 games to not run on PS5, while there is a technical reason for the PS3 games to not run on the PS3. Because they essentially had to integrate the PS3 CPU and GPU inside the PS4 - wich they didn't because SONY can not shrink the GPU themselve and integrate both into one Chip! 

Oh the XDR-DRAM from RAMBUS is also another possible reason they could not make a usful backwards compatible mode.

 

With this Generation it is different for obvious reasons....

[SpriteNo5]

27 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

PS1 games run on PS2 + all PS3

PS2 Games run on first gen PS3

Just PS3 games didn't run on PS4 because it would have been too expensive and Sony went for low price/good  deal.

 

While PS1 and two used MIPS CPUs, PS3 used something from the Power PC side. In this case they used an ancient nVidia GPU based on the crappy CineFX Architecture.

And the PS4 was also completely new and based on x86 and now with an AMD GPU.

 

PS5 will still be based on x86 so binary compatible with PS4 Games.

PS5 will still be based on an AMD GPU, though newer designs, though it might be possible to implement a backward compatible mode.

 

So there is absolutely NO technical REASON for PS4 games to not run on PS5, while there is a technical reason for the PS3 games to not run on the PS3. Because they essentially had to integrate the PS3 CPU and GPU inside the PS4 - wich they didn't because SONY can not shrink the GPU themselve and integrate both into one Chip! 

Oh the XDR-DRAM from RAMBUS is also another possible reason they could not make a usful backwards compatible mode.

 

With this Generation it is different for obvious reasons....

I never commented on the technical reasons for backwards compatibility, so your wall of text is a bit premature. I just stated I didn't think there would be backwards compatibility. My reason for this assumption is that they would rather offer digital sales or a subscription steaming service.

 

Network infrastructure is improving all the time and will have improved even more by the time a new console is out, so streaming and digital sales are much less likely to be hampered by patchy broadband services. There's a good argument that the next consoles will be digital only and may not even have disc drives (my guess only, but not unreasonable). 

 

Also the fact that PS3 to PS4 was the first time and all previous consoles offered backwards compatibility, doesn't suggest to me that Sony will revive this possibility. In fact it's more likely, now that they've  realised that not offering this has not harmed sales of their PS4 at all, that they won't offer backwards compatibility again? There's no financial reason especially now they have PS Now.

[Stefan Payne]

There is as no backward compatibility will cause a shitstorm and backward compatibility will cause good PR.

PS Now doesn't change the fact...

 

As for Backwards Compatibility, it won't be chaper and easier to do than from PS4 to 5.

[SpriteNo5]

No backwards com

15 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

There is as no backward compatibility will cause a shitstorm and backward compatibility will cause good PR.

PS Now doesn't change the fact...

 

As for Backwards Compatibility, it won't be chaper and easier to do than from PS4 to 5.

No backwards compatibility didn't cause a shitstorm this gen, did it? PS4 has sold massively (70 million in 4 years compared to PS3 85 million in 11 years). That's why Sony are more likely not to offer it, not offering it hasn't harmed them at all 

[Stefan Payne]

5 hours ago, SpriteNo5 said:

No backwards compatibility didn't cause a shitstorm this gen, did it? PS4 has sold massively (70 million in 4 years compared to PS3 85 million in 11 years). That's why Sony are more likely not to offer it, not offering it hasn't harmed them at all 

Yes, because everybody know that the hardware is incompatible and there is no easy way around that. 

That's what I'm trying to tell you that there was a technical reason that it wasn't done. Because it was bullshit to do at the time, as they had to basically integrate a PS3 into the PS4 - makes no sense. So they didn't do it. Also the PS1 Compatibility is irrelevant, 24 Years after its release. And the first and second generation of 3D Games didn't age well either.

 

With the PS4 vs. PS5 it is just a simple software stack to allow compatibility. 

The CPU Code is compatible - it wasn't before.

So all you need to do is to deactivate SMT, maybe some cores, clock them down to 2GHz or so and also deactivate a couple of shaders. The PS4 PRO Hardware seem to be able to do that on the fly. 

 

 

So there is literally no reason to NOT allow Backwards Compatibility!

In R&D the cost for that will be negligable, maybe some games might need a patch (see Tomb Raider 2013 in Boost Mode on the PRO, the scene where you jump into the helicopter).

 

[Majinhoju]

As far as future backwards compatibility, I think it could go either way.

 

I don't forsee PS5 being all the different in architecture from PS4 so I doubt we'd see any technical limitations preventing backwards compatibility.  But this is Sony we're talking about it, who knows what they'll decide.  They could lock it all down and force you rebuy or stream their classic titles on their playstation store.

 

If I currently did not have a ps4 and wanted to play the ps4 exclusive titles.  I probably wouldn't wait, I'd just go for the ps4.

[SpriteNo5]

2 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Yes, because everybody know that the hardware is incompatible and there is no easy way around that. 

That's what I'm trying to tell you that there was a technical reason that it wasn't done. Because it was bullshit to do at the time, as they had to basically integrate a PS3 into the PS4 - makes no sense. So they didn't do it. Also the PS1 Compatibility is irrelevant, 24 Years after its release. And the first and second generation of 3D Games didn't age well either.

 

With the PS4 vs. PS5 it is just a simple software stack to allow compatibility. 

The CPU Code is compatible - it wasn't before.

So all you need to do is to deactivate SMT, maybe some cores, clock them down to 2GHz or so and also deactivate a couple of shaders. The PS4 PRO Hardware seem to be able to do that on the fly. 

 

 

So there is literally no reason to NOT allow Backwards Compatibility!

In R&D the cost for that will be negligable, maybe some games might need a patch (see Tomb Raider 2013 in Boost Mode on the PRO, the scene where you jump into the helicopter).

 

I understand what you are saying with regards to the technical issues, technically it would be very easy, I get  that. But to say there "is literally no reason" not to have backwards compatibility is hugely naive. If they think, for an instant, they can AGAIN not offer backwards compatibility and instead charge for streaming or digi download, then there's a very good chance they will do this. There is no technical reason not to offer the functionality but there is a huge financial incentive not to offer the service, that you either don't accept this premise or can't see it is surprising, especially the way the gaming industry has gone in the last 5 or so years.

[Stefan Payne]

6 hours ago, SpriteNo5 said:

f they think, for an instant, they can AGAIN not offer backwards compatibility

No, they can not.

This time there will be a shitstorm.

Because People are not as dumb as you might believe.

 

There are some engineers and other people who know their stuff that would bash SONY for not even whitelisting a couple of Applications.

 

 

Also you are dead wrong with your assumption that Backwards Compatibility would increase the sales of the PS5 - its the opposite!

 

It doesn't matter if you are new or old to the console stuff, if the PS5 plays most PS4 Games, you don't need no PS4 and can go all in with the 5.

 

Especially in the beginning, the sales of the 5 will be pretty shit because there are no games...

but there is a huge financial incentive not to offer the service,

Wrong

Backjwardscompatibility will be an equally important thing like the Kinect shit of the One.

 

As mentioned above, the Sales of the 5 will be hurt if there is no backwards compatibility because there will be no games for the 5 (or remakes/PC Ports that have increased detail settings).

 

 

With Backwards Compatibility you can play all the PS4 Stuff and don't need the PS4 in this generation. YOu can literally throw it away and replace it with the 5.

Without that, you'd want to wait for some interesting games and a price dump like the PS4.

 

I have my PS4 PRO for a little bit over a Year (and did the Sony Survey).

 

It will be the same for the 5. Especially in the beginning, Backwards Compatibility will increase the sales of the 5!

[SpriteNo5]

3 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

No, they can not.

This time there will be a shitstorm.

Because People are not as dumb as you might believe.

 

There are some engineers and other people who know their stuff that would bash SONY for not even whitelisting a couple of Applications.

 

 

Also you are dead wrong with your assumption that Backwards Compatibility would increase the sales of the PS5 - its the opposite!

 

It doesn't matter if you are new or old to the console stuff, if the PS5 plays most PS4 Games, you don't need no PS4 and can go all in with the 5.

 

Especially in the beginning, the sales of the 5 will be pretty shit because there are no games...

Wrong

Backjwardscompatibility will be an equally important thing like the Kinect shit of the One.

 

As mentioned above, the Sales of the 5 will be hurt if there is no backwards compatibility because there will be no games for the 5 (or remakes/PC Ports that have increased detail settings).

 

 

With Backwards Compatibility you can play all the PS4 Stuff and don't need the PS4 in this generation. YOu can literally throw it away and replace it with the 5.

Without that, you'd want to wait for some interesting games and a price dump like the PS4.

 

I have my PS4 PRO for a little bit over a Year (and did the Sony Survey).

 

It will be the same for the 5. Especially in the beginning, Backwards Compatibility will increase the sales of the 5!

Ok, I'll have to end here. You ignore every piece of evidence out there and continue on with unproved theories. History shows that a PS4 that was released without backwards compatibility and which had a very poor catalogue upon release, and for some months after, sold by the bucket. It became one of the strongest selling consoles in history.

 

But you say "this time there will be a shitstorm" but offer no evidence to back this up. 

 

I never said no backwards compatibility would increase sales of PS5, i just stated that after what has happened with PS4 they will not offer it with PS5.

 

You say sales of PS5 will be hurt with no backwards compatibility. See my first paragraph. Again you ignore all the evidence provided by PS4 and state unproved opinion.

 

I understand you really want this to happen, I think it would also be a good thing. But you can't sit there calling someone dead wrong when your arguments are based on nothing but hope and there is a decent amount of evidence to back up the opposing view.

 

One final thing, we may be arguing the same thing. I'm an old git, so when I say backwards compatibility, I mean you won't be able to put a PS4 disc into a PS5. I've no doubt you'll be able to play PS4 games on the PS5, digitally downloaded or streamed. If streamed you will have to subscribe, so pay to access a game you already own. And I'm pretty sure if you own the physical copy of a PS4 game and you want to play it on a PS5 you will need to buy the digital copy. Like now if you own a game on disc and the disc is damaged you can't just download a copy from the store, you have to buy again. However if you own a digital copy of a game on PS4 You'll likely be able to download this on PS5 at no cost.

 

So in one sense I may be wrong, but also, if you have to re-buy or pay to stream PS4 games you already have physical copies of, then that isn't really backwards compatibility IMO.

[Stefan Payne]

1 hour ago, SpriteNo5 said:

You ignore every piece of evidence out there

No, I'm arguing about Cost and viability.

It was too expensive and not viable with the PS4 to offer PS3 compatibility or too expensive. It won't be on the PS5 as the Hardware is binary compatible.

 

So the Cost for a "Backward Compatibility" are very low or non existant.

 

 

They don't have to do anything!!

Hell, they could even load the PS4 Firmware, if they wanted to!

And that's also something I'd expect that the PS4 and 5 Firmware are based on the same code.

Though the UI might change a bit, as its always the case. 

 

1 hour ago, SpriteNo5 said:

i just stated that after what has happened with PS4 they will not offer it with PS5.

That is were totally different circumstances!

And that is what you seem to ignore, as there were technical and financial reasons for that!

 

 

Software Emulation is out of the question as the used Jaguar APU isn't powerful enough to emulate it.

So that leaves the Hardware implementation. 

 

For a Hardware solution, they had to put the Cell Engine and the RSX onto the PS4 Board! Including the needed memory!

Can you imagine how much that would have increased the cost of the Console?! For such a thing they had to sell the PS4 for at least 499, probably rather 599€ or even more as they basically had to integrate the PS3 Hardware onto the Board. They had to also put another Heatsink on it, possibly with fan. Wich would also had to increase the Size of the PS4 as well. And just look at how big the PS3 "Slim" was and how big the Super Slim Board was.

 

That makes just no sense at all.

 

 

Microsoft could offer Some Kind of Software solution because their Xenon and Xenos wasn't a total clusterfuck like the PS3 Solution is!

We are talking about a 3 Core Power PC without out of order excecution but with SMT. That are rather simple cores. And the 360 also used a unified memory architecture with a fast 10MiB eDRAM Buffer.

 

The PS3 had one Power PC Core and 8 (1 disabled) so called "PPEs" wich were very simple, GPU like things with their own (256k L2 I believe) Cache. Wich makes emulating that everything but simple or even possible.

 

1 hour ago, SpriteNo5 said:

You say sales of PS5 will be hurt with no backwards compatibility. See my first paragraph. Again you ignore all the evidence provided by PS4 and state unproved opinion.

Yes, because there are no games for the PS5. 

And it is also possible to patch existing games for PS5 enhancements and increase the detail levels. As they are already implemented in many games that are also available on PC. 

 

So with Backwards Compatibility you have the PS5 Games that won't run on the PS4 but you'd also have the PS4 Games that could be enhanced for the PS5. Thus a pretty huge libary is available right at the Start of the PS5. And you can also increase the optics of existing games, if the developers want to.

 

As for Backwards Compatibility, what do they have to do:

 

Deactivate SMT, clock the CPU down to 1,6-2,3GHz, deactivate a couple of Shaderunits for the GPU and also clock them down. 

 

Ähm, yeah, the PS4 PRO already does that today. AM4 Boards support deactivating SMT and also the Architecture of Zen is rather similar to the APU inside the PS4. 

Navi will probably be a bit different. But that's what Graphics API are for. I don't see any reason for that. Especially since Sony has something to say in the development of Navi.

 

And now you are serious comparing the failed Playstation 3 <-> 4 that was impossible to emulate at the time with the Hardware, that also didn't have a working PC Emulation at the time (right now there is an Emulator that allows you to play ~1/3 of the PS3 games, another ~42% are somewhat playable, can't be finished, have serious glitches or shitty performance), where the recommended Hardware specification are Quad Core Haswell and Hexacore Ryen, 8GiB RAM and a Vulcan compatible GPU.

 

So emulation for PS3 is just not possible, Hardware solution is too expensive...

Your assumption is based on ignoring the cost of a PS3 compatibility via Hardware or viability of a Software emulation!

Because its not viable, too expensive or to crappy.

 

1 hour ago, SpriteNo5 said:

so when I say backwards compatibility, I mean you won't be able to put a PS4 disc into a PS5. I've no doubt you'll be able to play PS4 games on the PS5, digitally downloaded or streamed.

OK, on that we can agree that the PS5 might not have a Blueray Drive or that it might be sold as an optional extra.

With that I can agree that they might get rid of physical discs.

 

On the other hand, there is a Problem:

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/11/for-console-games-downloads-are-approaching-a-tipping-point/

 

Quote

Activision revealed that more than 50 percent of Destiny 2's sales on consoles came via download rather than on a retail disc.

(...)

Earlier this year, EA said it expects 40 percent of its console game sales to come from downloads in 2017. That's a big jump from 30 percent of sales in 2016 (...)

 

 And in the UK, data shows that digital sales now account for a 30 to 45 percent share of console game sales compared to a 20 to 25 percent proportion the year before.

Console Games are still sold on Disc.

 

And the Pricing of the Download Store is so that you only buy something if you are:

a) Lazy or are eager to get your game

b) the game is on sale right now.

Because the Price of the physical disc is usually cheaper than the Download Version. I had this discussion a while ago, where it was about the price of Console Games vs. PC-Games. And the difference wasn't big, if you compare the price of physical copies of the Console with the Price of the DL Version on PC. 

So right now, I doubt that the PS5 will come without a physical Disc drive...

And with the size of the consoles, they don't necessarily need to. Sony isn't Nintendo...

 

Its a bit early (and risky) for that...

[PineyCreek]

On 8/20/2018 at 7:39 AM, Dan Castellaneta said:

Haven't a damn clue; we know jack shit about the PS5, or if it'll even exist.

Might as well get a PS4 Pro.

...don't know if PS5 will be backwards compatible either :). 

[Stefan Payne]

2 minutes ago, PineyCreek said:

...don't know if PS5 will be backwards compatible either :). 

No, but we could guess with what we know about the probable Hardware as it is pretty certain that they will use an AMD APU with a Navi Core and for the CPU they'd use a Zen Core. The Shader and Cores is the question but I doubt they will go down form the 8 Cores of the PS4. 

 

 

 

So we are talking about a binary compatible Hardware - wich isn't a first in the Console realm but a first for Sony!

You remember the Gamecube -> Wii. And to an extend also the WiiU.

 

As for the Security: While there are a couple of Hacks here and there, the PS4 is mostly secure. So even from this point of view, there isn't really a reason...

 

From a technicians point of view, the Hardware is compatible, so even without anything done, (some) PS4 Games will run on PS5 Hardware. So you have to actively lock the PS4 Games out of that...