Caselabs is shutting down.

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

 

 

 

There are plenty of tariffs that have come into effect that could explain the price increase; and there could be the speculative price increases from providers (and to an extent price increases from shortages as supplies and consumers hoard material intended for tariffs).  Ultimately, the announcement of tariffs and the fear of what tariffs may mean can cause a lot of instability in prices. [An example, if you sourced your steel locally an proposed tariff would increase the demand for local product which the local supplier might not be able to full-fill, causing an increase in pricing due to demand.  If you relied on local steel to supply your company, you could see a huge increase in cost]

How many new tariffs do you think there are?  As far as I am aware there has been nothing new applied for a very long time, in fact if anything things over the last decade have gotten cheaper due too less government interference with trade.  Rest assured this is 99% poor business management in a tough market.

 

2 hours ago, 2FA said:

It didn't seem that unreasonable of a statement to me. Quotes for materials are going to include the tariffs in the price since orders are placed ahead of time.

It is when the tariff is not actually implemented yet.  How does a company suffer losses and cost increases from a cost that doesn't exist?

[Lurick]

9 minutes ago, mr moose said:

How many new tariffs do you think there are?  As far as I am aware there has been nothing new applied for a very long time, in fact if anything things over the last decade have gotten cheaper due too less government interference with trade.  Rest assured this is 99% poor business management in a tough market.

 

It is when the tariff is not actually implemented yet.  How does a company suffer losses and cost increases from a cost that doesn't exist?

You mean the tarrifs of 10% in aluminium and 25% on steel that were imposed back in March that are still in effect?

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, Lurick said:

You mean the tarrifs of 10% in aluminium and 25% on steel that were imposed back in March that are still in effect?

As far as I am aware those tariffs do not apply to goods but to the import of raw products E.G steel and Aluminium.  Happy to be educated, but Most of the analysis I have seen indicates the only people in the US who are goignt o benefit are steel makers as producers will all have to pay a higher price for the raw materials.  Where as caselabs do not have to pay a higher prices and are subject only to the import tariffs already applied.

 

Bush did this in 2002 to the US and that resulted in job losses in the US, not so much in other countries.

[wanderingfool2]

25 minutes ago, mr moose said:

How many new tariffs do you think there are?  As far as I am aware there has been nothing new applied for a very long time, in fact if anything things over the last decade have gotten cheaper due too less government interference with trade.  Rest assured this is 99% poor business management in a tough market.

 

It is when the tariff is not actually implemented yet.  How does a company suffer losses and cost increases from a cost that doesn't exist?

 

8 minutes ago, mr moose said:

As far as I am aware those tariffs do not apply to goods but to the import of raw products E.G steel and Aluminium.  Happy to be educated, but Most of the analysis I have seen indicates the only people in the US who are goignt o benefit are steel makers as producers will all have to pay a higher price for the raw materials.  Where as caselabs do not have to pay a higher prices and are subject only to the import tariffs already applied.

 

Bush did this in 2002 to the US and that resulted in job losses in the US, not so much in other countries.

The problem is everything trickles down.  caselabs needs to source their parts from somewhere, and if the supply chain has to raise prices, you can bet that their costs will increase.  If you tax/tariff a raw resource, you can see increases in many different areas.  As mentioned by @Lurick there is at least the steel and aluminum tariffs (and that doesn't include the counter tariffs from China and Canada, which will inadvertently increase prices as well)

 

An example being, if you double the price of petrol overnight; you increase shipping costs of groceries and many cheaper products, you also create a higher demand for coal and natural gas, causing those prices to increase.

 

I am not saying that the business would have survived without the tariff's, but when your profit margins get severely cut down by increased costs it could be the nail in the coffin for many businesses.  Hypothetical, as an example.  If you sell a case for $600, and the raw material costs $300, the processing costs $200, you will only make $100; which might be a sustainable business plan.  Just steel and aluminum tariffs would decrease your profits to $25.

[Stefan Payne]

20 hours ago, Streetguru said:

What are the actual numbers for the cost increase? It sounds like they were already struggling which makes sense given the extremely limited market

Agree.

has nothing to do with Tariffs and everything to do with them on their end.

20 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

In their post it says prices went up by 80% as a combo of Tariffs and shortages. 

No, because they messed up or aren't able to pay their bills and other shit.

Or they lost a manufacturer for them and went with another wich is way more expensive and they may have to pay up front.

 

That is far more likely than anything else.

 

Also they are doing nice application stuff. 

Because their shit is just way too expensive to be sold by stores to the enduser as most money is made with cheaper things.

 

20 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Some of Case Labs stuff would have been hit; some would not have been. (The Tariff run actually affects petroleum products a lot more.) It's 25% Import tax, but that usually translates to about a 10% end-user cost increase. They also *haven't gone into effect yet*.

 

The real problem would appear to them being an extremely fragile company. They lost 1 account and their production costs go up 80% from a 25% tariff that isn't active yet. This means a lot of bad decisions were made over time, and they simply got crunched by events when they weren't stable enough to handle them. One could also say that their business model required production cost arbitrage out of China. 

 

This won't be the last company to go under like this, but it also explains why this is happening. The entire Cost Structure of some of these industries is based off getting products at prices that aren't actually viable for the industry. China has been one Recession away from causing this chain of events anyway, it's just being kicked off by the USA.

Totally agree...

 

So you can summarize it with incompetence and unrealistic business practices.

Combined with a tiny market for their products...

 

How many cases would they have sold? Maybe 10 a Month? And how many people work for them?

That doesn't sound like a great idea, does it?

 

 

PS: Mainstream manufacturers measure their sells in 20 or 40ft containers...

[mr moose]

13 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

 

The problem is everything trickles down.  caselabs needs to source their parts from somewhere, and if the supply chain has to raise prices, you can bet that their costs will increase.  If you tax/tariff a raw resource, you can see increases in many different areas.  As mentioned by @Lurick there is at least the steel and aluminum tariffs (and that doesn't include the counter tariffs from China and Canada, which will inadvertently increase prices as well)

 

An example being, if you double the price of petrol overnight; you increase shipping costs of groceries and many cheaper products, you also create a higher demand for coal and natural gas, causing those prices to increase.

 

I am not saying that the business would have survived without the tariff's, but when your profit margins get severely cut down by increased costs it could be the nail in the coffin for many businesses.  Hypothetical, as an example.  If you sell a case for $600, and the raw material costs $300, the processing costs $200, you will only make $100; which might be a sustainable business plan.  Just steel and aluminum tariffs would decrease your profits to $25.

It all comes back to management, even if the the steel and aluminium tariffs that have only been a thing since June had an impact,  blaming the tariff in this case is ignoring the elephant in the room.    Major companies don't go bankrupt, they either slowly die over years as a result of becoming obsolete and not managing their relevance (think Kodak) or they die almost instantly due to poor decisions (think 3dfx).     Caselabs is in the former, trying to blame a market characteristic that is either not currently present or has little impact is erroneous.  That is unless they were pining holding the company together on 2 months worth of sales?

[Tribalinius]

12 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

PS: Mainstream manufacturers measure their sells in 20 or 40ft containers...

I'm pretty sure they never considered themselves "mainstream" in the first place. I'm sure they were never geared to be mainstream either. What differentiated CaseLabs from the rest of the case manufacturers out there was the quality of the product, the upgradability and the customization of their cases.

The sheer number of configurations possible would have been a logistical nightmare for a company like Corsair for example who would need to switch their mass produce business model to something more of a mass produce/built-to-order hybrid for some of their lineup causing inventory overhead for specific parts and such. It's not going to happen. CoolerMaster seems to do it to some extent with the MasterCase series but absolutely not at the insane customization level CaseLabs was doing with each case in their lineup. Add to that that we don't know how well the whole custom thing is going for CoolerMaster either.

I respect them in a sense that they felt that their customers were looking for the best case all around and, if that meant that mass producing was not meeting their specific criteria of absolute perfection, they decided to go the built-to-order way. They were artisans creating timeless pieces of art.

[NumLock21]

2 hours ago, jasonvp said:

As it turns out: no case manufacturer has the features and quality that CaseLabs does (or, more accurately: did).  It's why their cases cost so damned much.  For instance: my optioned-up THW10 was literally $900.  Just the case.  There isn't a case in existence that has what mine does.  It's why I bought it.

 

The problem is volume.  They obviously couldn't compete only with high-end cases.  They needed a "low-end" or "down-market" set of cases to sell in volume.  However, given that they were a teeny, little shop with only a few folks hand-building everything they did, volume just wasn't an option.

 

It's too bad, really.

 

Well it's too late for that.

2 hours ago, Lathlaer said:

You know very well that it's extremely improbable that there are any Caselabs chassis owners who had to make that kind of decision ;-)

 

"OMG bought SMA8 and custom LC, now I don't have money to buy actual hardware and will need to watercool my 1030"

Bought SMA8, don't have money even for GT1030. Watercools the iGPU.

 

[Furiku]

I'm sad

 

Caselabs represented the ultimate freedom for highest end custom PCs, something even average consumer like myself would consider seriously when eyeing cases with 1000$/€ budget.

[Lathlaer]

42 minutes ago, Tribalinius said:

They were artisans creating timeless pieces of art.

They say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder so I'm going to slightly disagree with that one ;-)

 

Their cases are well-built and extremely high quality but to me their form and design is pretty basic so calling them timeless pieces of art would be going one step too far ;-)

[pas008]

23 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Some of Case Labs stuff would have been hit; some would not have been. (The Tariff run actually affects petroleum products a lot more.) It's 25% Import tax, but that usually translates to about a 10% end-user cost increase. They also *haven't gone into effect yet*.

 

The real problem would appear to them being an extremely fragile company. They lost 1 account and their production costs go up 80% from a 25% tariff that isn't active yet. This means a lot of bad decisions were made over time, and they simply got crunched by events when they weren't stable enough to handle them. One could also say that their business model required production cost arbitrage out of China. 

 

This won't be the last company to go under like this, but it also explains why this is happening. The entire Cost Structure of some of these industries is based off getting products at prices that aren't actually viable for the industry. China has been one Recession away from causing this chain of events anyway, it's just being kicked off by the USA.

 

15 hours ago, mr moose said:

So a tariff that isn't implemented yet is blamed for a company going arse up and you people believe it without question?  Crikey!

 

13 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Translated:

 

Company can't compete. Blames tariffs that don't even have an effect yet.

 

 

Similar thing happened with steel products used in construction, tariffs are blamed for the most recent price increase, but the tariffs were ultimately irrelevant as said price increase was known to suppliers well in advance.

 

9 hours ago, an actual squirrel said:

Tariffs themselves are generally the result of failing industries with outsize political influence blaming other countries for their own lack of competitiveness.

 

8 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

 

 

 

There are plenty of tariffs that have come into effect that could explain the price increase; and there could be the speculative price increases from providers (and to an extent price increases from shortages as supplies and consumers hoard material intended for tariffs).  Ultimately, the announcement of tariffs and the fear of what tariffs may mean can cause a lot of instability in prices. [An example, if you sourced your steel locally an proposed tariff would increase the demand for local product which the local supplier might not be able to full-fill, causing an increase in pricing due to demand.  If you relied on local steel to supply your company, you could see a huge increase in cost]

 

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

How many new tariffs do you think there are?  As far as I am aware there has been nothing new applied for a very long time, in fact if anything things over the last decade have gotten cheaper due too less government interference with trade.  Rest assured this is 99% poor business management in a tough market.

 

It is when the tariff is not actually implemented yet.  How does a company suffer losses and cost increases from a cost that doesn't exist?

I cut steel for a living

10 cents a lb increase adds up which is what we have been given

Plus us companies doing limited supply to help drive up prices yes its done 

Not said directly but we know the wording

Harley Davidson is also suffering from tariffs look what they are going to do

I could name many companies that are looking into alternate methods of over coming the end cost of the rise

The tariffs are making it very anti competitive for manufacturers for raw materials allowing US companies to pay supply and demand game because of the mark up of the tariff

[Lady Fitzgerald]

7 hours ago, cj09beira said:

 

do you know how china can have steal and aluminum so much cheaper? well they subsidize it, and bought tons of it from 3rd world countries well under the price it was worth, remelted them and were able to sell at very low prices, the government then pays for transport too, how can other countries fight against all the trickery china pulls, its really hard 

Actually, the reason China can sell their steel and aluminum cheaper is cheaper labor and selling poor quality metals. They even lie on their certs, claiming the metal they sell is better quality than it is.

[seee the state im in nooow]

I heard secondhand they got the problems for a year now ._. most probably the busted account was the main problem

[Taf the Ghost]

3 minutes ago, pas008 said:

 

I cut steel for a living

10 cents a lb increase adds up which is what we have been given

Plus us companies doing limited supply to help drive up prices yes its done 

Not said directly but we know the wording

Harley Davidson is also suffering from tariffs look what they are going to do

I could name many companies that are looking into alternate methods of over coming the end cost of the rise

The tariffs are making it very anti competitive for manufacturers for raw materials allowing US companies to pay supply and demand game because of the mark up of the tariff

There's been a Trade War against the USA for a while now. At the basic level, the entire point is everyone else has spent decades bribing & manipulating their way into the American Market at a comparative advantage that American production can't compete with. (Environmental Regulations were also meant, mostly, to cause the outsourcing as well. Environmental Groups tend to get a lot of foreign funding for a reason.) That's really what it's about, and there's going to be costs to normalization.

 

It isn't all Puppies and Sunsets that result from this. There's going to be dead companies as a result, but there's always going to be dead companies. The UK just lost a 150 year old department store chain this week. The issue isn't companies going under; the issue is no one can profitably start another one locally. Most industries are addicted to under-priced Chinese production, which means they're now dependent upon Chinese subsidization of that production. That's a big problem, but it's going to take years to readjust.

 

In Case Labs' situation, it seems to be a combination of things that all landed at once. Especially with a big account not paying. (It's likely their AR & AP weren't in good alignment, which caused them to suddenly be insolvent.) 

[Taf the Ghost]

7 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Actually, the reason China can sell their steel and aluminum cheaper is cheaper labor and selling poor quality metals. They even lie on their certs, claiming the metal they sell is better quality than it is.

That too, though the main thing with Steel & Aluminum is actually this: more can be produced, per year, than is possible to use in any feasible way. For the last 3000+ years, metals have been the rate-limiting aspect to economic production, but now they can produce more than would ever be necessary. This makes it a commodity market, in the first place, which turns on other factors. 

 

But, just because a single country could produce all of the world's supply, it becomes a key National Security issue. Metal shows up in practically everything, so if you control the Metal supply, you control practically everything. It's the reason smaller countries across the globe still protect their Steel industries. Being wholly dependent on some other country for steel means you're under their control, if they want it. 

[S w a t s o n]

Welp, I guess if you want to spend way too much money on a custom case we'll have to hope Protocase doesnt get shrekt

 

I wonder if this is an opening for protocase to maybe start making a case line ala Caselabs, maybe some caselabs people could even find a new job there

[pas008]

18 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

There's been a Trade War against the USA for a while now. At the basic level, the entire point is everyone else has spent decades bribing & manipulating their way into the American Market at a comparative advantage that American production can't compete with. (Environmental Regulations were also meant, mostly, to cause the outsourcing as well. Environmental Groups tend to get a lot of foreign funding for a reason.) That's really what it's about, and there's going to be costs to normalization.

 

It isn't all Puppies and Sunsets that result from this. There's going to be dead companies as a result, but there's always going to be dead companies. The UK just lost a 150 year old department store chain this week. The issue isn't companies going under; the issue is no one can profitably start another one locally. Most industries are addicted to under-priced Chinese production, which means they're now dependent upon Chinese subsidization of that production. That's a big problem, but it's going to take years to readjust.

 

In Case Labs' situation, it seems to be a combination of things that all landed at once. Especially with a big account not paying. (It's likely their AR & AP weren't in good alignment, which caused them to suddenly be insolvent.) 

Imho

rich got richer investing in American steel because raising the price

Wish i had bunch of money to throw at that

 

We only bought north American which they were great Right before the announcement of the tariff

The 3 companies we deal with actually changed their service and ordering procedures 

Right now it has tapered off and the service has got a little better and price dropped but still 10cents a lb more than before

Actually think the tariff will be lowered mid next year because of next presidential election and establishing stronger American raw material companies

[Rune]

22 hours ago, Jurunce said:

I was hoping to eventually upgrade my Corsair 900D with their Caselabs Magnum SMA8 Revision A case. But holy shit my plans have changed dramatically!

 

It appears that I might keep the 900D and mod it as much as I can. Here's my modding to-do list:

1. Tempered glass panel (3/8 thick, clear)
2. Upgrade front I/O panel (4x USB 3.1 Gen.1 ports, 1 USB 3.1 Gen.2 Type C, and 1 HDMI port)
3. 560mm radiator support (the case can fit such a radiator once clearance for it has been made)

If you find a front panel let me know where. I've modded everything but on my 900D.

[Taf the Ghost]

46 minutes ago, pas008 said:

Imho

rich got richer investing in American steel because raising the price

Wish i had bunch of money to throw at that

 

We only bought north American which they were great Right before the announcement of the tariff

The 3 companies we deal with actually changed their service and ordering procedures 

Right now it has tapered off and the service has got a little better and price dropped but still 10cents a lb more than before

Actually think the tariff will be lowered mid next year because of next presidential election and establishing stronger American raw material companies

I'd be surprised if the tariffs drop at any point in the near future. They also work as a useful geo-political cudgel. Main point is to keep capital re-invested within the USA, which means they're here to stay. There'll be some shifting in aspects, but it's "Trade Normalization" for a reason.

[Jurunce]

12 minutes ago, Rune said:

If you find a front panel let me know where. I've modded everything but on my 900D.

You can get replacements from Corsair. I haven't actually started on the modding project, but when I do, what I've listed are what I have on my mind

 

As for individual front panel components, so far it looks like to me would be ModDIY. They've got just about anything you could think of.

[pas008]

30 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

I'd be surprised if the tariffs drop at any point in the near future. They also work as a useful geo-political cudgel. Main point is to keep capital re-invested within the USA, which means they're here to stay. There'll be some shifting in aspects, but it's "Trade Normalization" for a reason.

Think it depends on which tariffs to stay and possible change

Yes its a always best to keep money in house our shop has been doing this slowly and each has been successful

But there are things that can't be done here in the us period because employee costs vs final product/piece/component/etc

So i think many things will be reevaluated 

[Taf the Ghost]

44 minutes ago, pas008 said:

Think it depends on which tariffs to stay and possible change

Yes its a always best to keep money in house our shop has been doing this slowly and each has been successful

But there are things that can't be done here in the us period because employee costs vs final product/piece/component/etc

So i think many things will be reevaluated 

Secondary & Tertiary effects simply can't be known until industries re-evaluate their position in a new equilibrium. Breaking the subsidization cycle always causes weird things to pop up, but those should show up over the next few year.

 

Things will get really wonky if they normalize the Fed Rate more and the Dollar starts to rise sharply again. Too many industries are built up around ultra-low debt costs, which causes really stupid decisions to be made. For every good investment that happens because of low rates, it eats apart even more of the purchasing power of the consumer, right along with causing multiple bad businesses to spring up.

 

It's analogous to starting a proper diet after years of eating nothing but fast food. That's some rough parts at the beginning.

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, pas008 said:

 

 

 

 

 

I cut steel for a living

10 cents a lb increase adds up which is what we have been given

Plus us companies doing limited supply to help drive up prices yes its done 

Not said directly but we know the wording

Harley Davidson is also suffering from tariffs look what they are going to do

I could name many companies that are looking into alternate methods of over coming the end cost of the rise

The tariffs are making it very anti competitive for manufacturers for raw materials allowing US companies to pay supply and demand game because of the mark up of the tariff

So if it was 10c a lb, the sma8 (one of their larger cases) would cost $2.80 more being that it weighs 28Ibs.  lats assume the cost is double that and it cost $6 more to produce due to said tariff, also lets assume it is a case that sells for $100 rather than $700.  Given worst case scenario for them, the change in cost to the end consumer is hardly going to cause them bankruptcy in 2 months.  

 

I feel sorry for them to be sure, but lets be realistic about this.

[Taf the Ghost]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

So if it was 10c a lb, the sma8 (one of their larger cases) would cost $2.80 more being that it weighs 28Ibs.  lats assume the cost is double that and it cost $6 more to produce due to said tariff, also lets assume it is a case that sells for $100 rather than $700.  Given worst case scenario for them, the change in cost to the end consumer is hardly going to cause them bankruptcy in 2 months.  

 

I feel sorry for them to be sure, but lets be realistic about this.

It really seems like they ran into an Accounts Receivable issue and made them insolvent.

[mr moose]

15 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

It really seems like they ran into an Accounts Receivable issue and made them insolvent.

More than likely,   it really seems like their business was simply not a sustainable proposition.  I'd like to know if extending that credit to their clients was the only way they could secure more sales, because it does look that way.