Tesla are running out of money and will be bankrupt by early 2019, they're asking suppliers to offer "retroactive price cuts"

[jagdtigger]

2 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

2% loss per year

Keep on dreaming pal..... Even if i take the best case scenario in 5 years it will loose at least 40% of its capacity.

Edited July 24, 2018 by jagdtigger

[AnonymousGuy]

2 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

Batteries last longer than most engines and transmissions. Even then its estimated 10 years at 2% loss per year and its $12k to replace. 

We see iPhones losing 30% of capacity in 2 years, 2% per year is some sort of theoretical / world's most gentle usage scenario.

[mynameisjuan]

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

Keep on dreaming pal.....

Tesla owners say otherwise 

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/how-much-will-replacement-battery-last-and-what-will-it-cost

[GoodBytes]

Just now, jagdtigger said:

Look it up how lithium and other ingridients mined to make a battery cell, then how its disposed.... Sorry but this process in itself pollutes more than running an IC car.

There is a very minimal amount of Lithium in a Lithium-ion/poly battery actually. Look it up. The only batteries that highly pollutes are the button cell ones, which are jam pack with Lithium inside, and they are not even rechargeable (well now they are some rechargeable, but those are rare). And battery manufactures makes batteries cleaner every generations. They last longer, they can operate better under cold environment, they don't wear out under intense heat. Lots of improvement.

 

Just now, jagdtigger said:

So does EV's, or you were thinking there is no oil needed for the rest of the car just because it has a electric motor instead of IC?

Lets see what you say about that when you have to replace the battery....

Batteries are getting cheaper, and improvement in recycling them and putting new life in them are also improving. Batteries for car are rated to last 10 years. Tesla batteries are rated to lose 10% over 160 000 miles (https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/), and you can bet Samsung and LG continues to have nice improvements on their side.

[mynameisjuan]

4 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

We see iPhones losing 30% of capacity in 2 years, 2% per year is some sort of theoretical / world's most gentle usage scenario.

In a thin non- ventilated case with no active cooling and constantly being drained below 20% and are charged to 100%. All factors that kill battery life. 

 

Then take the Tesla that has active cooling, charge controllers that prevent overcharging and to top it off most drive in the city with some charging once ever 3-4 days to a week. 

[GoodBytes]

16 hours ago, AnonymousGuy said:

We see iPhones losing 30% of capacity in 2 years, 2% per year is some sort of theoretical / world's most gentle usage scenario.

Sorry, if Apple uses shit batteries in their phones, that is not Lithium-Ion battery fault.

This is like going "Windows is dog slow you can't even surf the web, because my 200$ netbook gives me that experience, while this fancy 2000$ MacBook Pro delivers performance! OSX is awesome!".  It's not the OS, it's the hardwrae and associated cost to get something good. But sadly, you can't control what Apple put in their phone and the price they charge you, beside not buying one.

(Android manufactures are also guilty of this)

[Brooksie359]

2 hours ago, Hip said:

Well that is not true. There are already great batteries with a huge capacity and small charging time, it depends on where you live. Look at those countries in north europe or china, where electric cars are selling off like crazy. The US market is not that big as people think of.

 

But electric cars are not the best future we could imagine considering all the mining that has to be done for the batteries.

I actually see quite a few teslas around and that's living in the northern part of the us. I primarily see them in richer areas and in the city but still quite a bit more than I had expected when I heard about the model 3. 

[ARikozuM]

I feel like everyone is underestimating the Tesla network plus the fact that you can charge from an outlet. 

 

Power stations in Florida. They are available along major highways and even in cities. Red = Supercharging stations (free charging if you wait or pay for a battery swap) and Black = Destination charging. 

Spoiler

 

The US as a whole has a pretty healthy and well-spaced network already created. Nearly all major areas are covered with distance to spare. 

Spoiler

 

[D13H4RD]

I probably am very biased here, but if someone were to ask me to pick between a Model 3 DM or any gasoline-powered car of my choice that's around half the Model 3's base MSRP, guess what I'd pick? 

 

[BuckGup]

2 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Well well, the bubble is about to burst... As predicted, electric cars arent ready for mainstream. Short range, long charging time, relatively short battery lifespan.

Except almost all large auto companies have pledged to be all electric in the near future. Range is that of a combustion engine, charging time with fast chargers is 20-30 minutes, battery lifespan due to controlled environment and limited discharge is around 15 years. 

[Mr.Meerkat]

1 minute ago, AnonymousGuy said:

We see iPhones losing 30% of capacity in 2 years, 2% per year is some sort of theoretical / world's most gentle usage scenario.

Actually I would disagree. Phones are charged everyday whereas EVs do not have to be. Of course, its probably a completely different story in America however in Europe, its very likely you'd meet the 2%/year figure.

Lets take the quoted range of the nissan leaf (168 miles) and the average figure of 7900 miles/year (22~ miles/day) for an average motorist in Britain. By doing 168/22, you're only charging around once per week. This means that you're charging the battery 7 times less, which if you consider the battery of an iPhone loses 30% capacity/2 years, you'd easily come to 2%/year for an EV. 

[mynameisjuan]

3 minutes ago, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

I probably am very biased here, but if someone were to ask me to pick between a Model 3 DM or any gasoline-powered car of my choice that's around half the Model 3's base MSRP, guess what I'd pick? 

 

 

Yeah you def are not the target market for Tesla

[ARikozuM]

5 minutes ago, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

I probably am very biased here, but if someone were to ask me to pick between a Model 3 DM or any gasoline-powered car of my choice that's around half the Model 3's base MSRP, guess what I'd pick? 

 

Nice Corolla!

[GoodBytes]

13 minutes ago, Eaglerino said:

It takes 8-12 hours on standard outlet, then providing nobody unplugs it. Don't forget how petty people are (sure you could siphon gas, but that's a tad more noticeable if you ask me). You also can't convince me the second gas cars get made illegal, which I'm sure will happen eventually, that they won't start charging for electricity. They aren't going to charge everybody's cars for free forever

 

Then what if you're stuck on the side of the road? Will AAA have battery bank trucks for you, or will they need to take generators and wait a few hours for you? I just feel gas is safer and more reliable for now, and that won't change for many years in a country with long swaths of road like America. But again if I lived in the middle of a city and never left (mostly cause if I lived in the middle of a city I'd be making enough to money to fly anywhere) then I'd probably have an electric car already. Imagine all the noisy roads becoming silent with electric vehicles

More like 8h, and that is assuming you battery is really at 0, which it won't, you sleep for 8h in general, and people won't unplug it. And all electric cars have a phone app which you status of the car battery. You know your mileages based on your current driving style, percentage of the battery, and if its charging or not. So you can even go to a shopping mall (say), that has charging station (more and more have some, desperate to get people in), and you can see the battery life of your phone while shopping, so if you want to stick in an extra 5min to get more juice, than go ahead, no need to wonder and run back and forth to your car.

 

By the way, the lack of fuel level info on the go in cars, is how gas station makes money, while I can't speak for every place around the world, at least in Canada and many places in the US, Monday and Tuesday you have the cheapest fuel prices as most people filled up, but the week-end when you realize you are low in gas, or plan to go on trip of any kind with the car, you notice you are low in fuel, and have to gas up. Prices are the highest then. Fun.

 

[D13H4RD]

1 minute ago, mynameisjuan said:

Yeah you def are not the target market for Tesla

Actually, you're right on the ball. 

 

I think gearheads who love the IC engine are a hard bunch to please with electric vehicles. But I think a Model S is great daily material. It's quiet, easy to drive and has zippy acceleration that's useful for city driving. 

 

It's just not my first choice for a fun car. 

 

Also, why Model S and not Model 3? Because I still abhor the lack of an instrument cluster. 

[jagdtigger]

15 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

here is a very minimal amount of Lithium in a Lithium-ion/poly battery actually.

In case of phones maybe, but these aint small batteries.

 

15 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Batteries for car are rated to last 10 years.

See my previous post, thats not possible. If you dont want to risk your car breaking down on you that is.

 

15 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Tesla batteries are rated to lose 10% over 160 000 miles

Many cars rated for 5l/100km but in relity its 8l. Same goes for this. As long as the only data available is coming from the company i cannot trust it.

2 minutes ago, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

I think gearheads who love the IC engine are a hard bunch to please with electric vehicles.

More like impossible....

Edited July 24, 2018 by jagdtigger

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

1 minute ago, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

Actually, you're right on the ball. 

 

I think gearheads who love the IC engine are a hard bunch to please with electric vehicles. But I think a Model S is great daily material. It's quiet, easy to drive and has zippy acceleration that's useful for city driving. 

 

It's just not my first choice for a fun car. 

 

Also, why Model S and not Model 3? Because I still abhor the lack of an instrument cluster. 

Well they just have to change their attitude towards it. Do they really want a WRX as a daily? It's so loud and hard, it's pretty much one of the worst commuter cars you can think of. 

[GoodBytes]

Oh!, if you ever did a big travel in your gasoline car, you know that the reality of finding a gas station is scares. You need to plan ahead. But strangely, finding power is everywhere. You might be stuck for a couple of hours while charging the car enough to the next power station, but at least you won't be pushing the car until the next town (or spend 250$ for "towing" because you are out of nowhere, just to have some towing truck bring you to the next closest town, or bring you a small gas tank which hopefully will last)

[D13H4RD]

Just now, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

Well they just have to change their attitude towards it. Do they really want a WRX as a daily? It's so loud and hard, it's pretty much one of the worst commuter cars you can think of. 

It's hard to change our mindset. Some of us actually want a bone-crushing loud daily. 

 

Yeah, we're weird, but there's also Supergramps 

[mynameisjuan]

Just now, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

It's just not my first choice for a fun car. 

A P100d smokes any IC car up to120 and is the fastest accelerating consumer car. 

 

Calling electric cars just city driving and are not made for fun is way off the mark. Its hilarious that people still think IC can touch electric cars. 

 

I love combustion and I love electric. Facts are facts though.

[Mr.Meerkat]

19 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Yeah, lets shorten the not so great lifespan  of the battery even further. :facepalm:

Well its not that hard to implement measures to reduce the degradation of battery wear. By simply adding some cooling to the batteries and limiting+regulating how much a battery can charge/discharge, the life span of a battery can be drastically increased. Of course, there are downsides such as increased costs, increased weight and potentially decreased range however, the latter can be negated by allowing the user to control whether they want maximum range or maximum lifespan. 

[Master Disaster]

28 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Sorry but no. Electric cars pollutes less. If your country you live, produces electricity by burning coil, oil, or whatever highly pollutant product, than that is their problem. Push your government for green solution. Quebec, for example, has all it's power from hydro.

 

In addition, cars leak oil (engine oil and other oil that the car needs) beside burning fuel, and due to the constant high cost of maintenance (oil changes, filter changes, and so on, not to mention finding an affordable mechanic), makes people not maintain their car properly, and results in high pollution.

And the cadmium and cobalt used in the batteries comes from where exactly?

 

Do you realise how toxic the mining of these chemicals is for both the miners and for the environment (mostly because the mines tend to be in third world countries that don't care about dumping tonnes of acid straight into the water table) not to mention the fact all the processed material needs to be shipped half way around the globe before it can be used.

[Yoinkerman]

The wall street journal doing a hit piece against competitors to incumbent idustries?

 

WHO COULD HAVE PREDICTED THIS

[jagdtigger]

4 minutes ago, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

Some of us actually want a bone-crushing loud daily.

Well not bone crushing but i like my sport exhaust...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9QC_gkwOFw

3 minutes ago, Mr.Meerkat said:

Well its not that hard to implement measures to reduce the degradation of battery wear

 

Anything above 1C is damaging the battery, have fun calculating out how big of a battery needed/how big of a motor can you use to match that....

 

Edited July 24, 2018 by jagdtigger

[D13H4RD]

4 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

A P100d smokes any IC car up to120 and is the fastest accelerating consumer car. 

 

Calling electric cars just city driving and are not made for fun is way off the mark. Its hilarious that people still think IC can touch electric cars. 

 

I love combustion and I love electric. Facts are facts though.

Yeahhhhhh, I don't think it's clear cut. 

 

The thing is, it's not the acceleration. It's the sensation of driving. The manual H-shifter, the clutch pedal, the feeling of being one with the car. 

 

There is a reason why gearheads like the Miata even though it's pretty slow 

 

I'm not saying electric cars can't be fun. It's just that my definition of fun in a car isn't limited to eyeball melting acceleration