Bonded DSL and a longer phone line cable

[Raxxath]

My ISP uses bonded DSL (I think that's the correct term) to give me higher speeds. The issue is that I want to move my gateway to outside of my bedroom, but the phone jack is in my bedroom, so I need a longer cable. But the cable is split at one end, with a connector for each phone line, and I can't find anyone selling cables that look like this. I assume it's just some kind of regular phone cable that's been split and then another connector attached, but I don't know much of anything about wire crimping. And then with the added length, does it need to be a shielded cable or something like that?

 

If I can get that figured out, then I have a second question. With my gateway outside of my bedroom, I would then want to route an ethernet cable back into my bedroom to connect to a router or a switch, so I could then hardwire all my devices in my bedroom. I can't figure out if I need a router or just a switch for this purpose, though.

 

The purpose of all this is to get the gateway in a more centralized location outside of my bedroom to give a better wireless signal to the rest of the house.

 

 

[Raxxath]

4 minutes ago, RandomGuy13 said:

Assuming your gateway is a router, then you would just need a switch.

It's a Zyxel VMG4825-B10A

[Raxxath]

5 minutes ago, RandomGuy13 said:

As for the cable, what does the other end look like, Is it a single 8p8c connector like a rj45?

 

It's a single connector, but that's all I know. Here's the end connected to the gateway:

 

 

[Raxxath]

36 minutes ago, RandomGuy13 said:

You don't need any shielding for short - medium distances.

 

Even on 25 feet like that one? And with an ethernet cable running right on top of it? I read on another forum that any phone cable over 5 feet should be shielded or twisted pair or something along those lines.

 

36 minutes ago, RandomGuy13 said:

It's important that both the cable and coupler have all 4 contacts on each end and that they are straight through cables.

 

I'm guessing you mean that some couplers and cables don't come with all 4 contacts? And I'm not sure what you mean by "straight through" cables.

 

Edit: I'm guessing you mean "straight" as opposed to "reverse." So this one should be perfect, right? https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=102&cp_id=10222&cs_id=1022203&p_id=948&seq=1&format=2

 

And this coupler? https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=105&cp_id=10519&cs_id=1051901&p_id=7278&seq=1&format=2

[mynameisjuan]

1 hour ago, Raxxath said:

My ISP uses bonded DSL (I think that's the correct term) to give me higher speeds. The issue is that I want to move my gateway to outside of my bedroom, but the phone jack is in my bedroom, so I need a longer cable. But the cable is split at one end, with a connector for each phone line, and I can't find anyone selling cables that look like this. I assume it's just some kind of regular phone cable that's been split and then another connector attached, but I don't know much of anything about wire crimping. And then with the added length, does it need to be a shielded cable or something like that?

 

If I can get that figured out, then I have a second question. With my gateway outside of my bedroom, I would then want to route an ethernet cable back into my bedroom to connect to a router or a switch, so I could then hardwire all my devices in my bedroom. I can't figure out if I need a router or just a switch for this purpose, though.

 

The purpose of all this is to get the gateway in a more centralized location outside of my bedroom to give a better wireless signal to the rest of the house.

 

 

 

All you need is an RJ11 2 pair cable. They are common and wicked cheap. 

 

So RJ11 is a typical phone cable but in DSL only the two inner pairs are connected. Thats why a phone cable you only see two wires but they typically have 4. 

 

Buy a phone cable with 2 pairs, buy a crimp tool ($10 and they last for life), crimp 1 side normally, two inner wires will be 1 DSL, the two outer will be the second. 

 

One side will look like this and the other end you swap the B and Y cables but leave the inner ones the same. Again one end will be BRGY and the other will be YRGB.

 

It probably sounds worst than it actually is. Do the same YRGB on the outlet as well and you are done.

 

The reason why I say to do it this way instead of buying a switch because its more cables, more hardware to cause issue and 1 cable has less interference than two so you have more stability. Not only that, now you can wire any phone jack in the house and move your modem where ever you want. 

 

If I wasnt clear enough please let me know. 

[mynameisjuan]

40 minutes ago, RandomGuy13 said:

You don't need any shielding for short - medium distances. 

Oh yes you do. I cant emphasize enough how important that last run is on stability. Couplers will knock 2-4db off instantly and are exposed and the devices next to them will drop their connection constantly. The NID to the modem is where 90% of problems occur in DSL due to interference and bad connections. 

[Raxxath]

Welp, this information is somewhat conflicting and I'm still confused.

 

5 hours ago, mynameisjuan said:

 

 

I can't tell if you're suggesting that I also need to rewire the phone jack itself... If so, I'm definitely not qualified for that.

[mynameisjuan]

21 hours ago, Raxxath said:

Welp, this information is somewhat conflicting and I'm still confused.

 

 

I can't tell if you're suggesting that I also need to rewire the phone jack itself... If so, I'm definitely not qualified for that.

You dont have to be qualified for that. When you remove the jack its literally 4 wires that you just unscrew and screw in.

 

On 6/22/2018 at 7:44 PM, RandomGuy13 said:

Yea you're probably right, I normally work only with twisted cable so I forgot how much non twisted cable can degrade the signal.

All cable is twisted unless you see the exposed pairs. phone pairs are just more susceptible to interference so you want shielding the whole run.  

[Raxxath]

My ISP says that a longer cable would cause interference and can't be done. Yet googling about longer phone cables for DSL yields many results of people saying it causes little to no difference.

 

On 6/23/2018 at 10:12 PM, mynameisjuan said:

You dont have to be qualified for that. When you remove the jack its literally 4 wires that you just unscrew and screw in.

 

Okay, but I don't understand why I need to fiddle with the jack in the first place. I thought the issue was with the cables.

[mynameisjuan]

2 minutes ago, Raxxath said:

My ISP says that a longer cable would cause interference and can't be done. Yet googling about longer phone cables for DSL yields many results of people saying it causes little to no difference.

 

 

Okay, but I don't understand why I need to fiddle with the jack in the first place. I thought the issue was with the cables.

Because when you bond pairs they should be joined at the jack not a cable that splices then together. 

 

And no a longer cable will not affect it. 

[Falconevo]

Leave the modem/router where it is, the dual RJ11 cable that goes in to it for bonded DSL is a custom cable which it not that hard to replicate but you shouldn't.  You want that cable as short as possible as extending it will reduce the speed of your DSL synchronisation.  Having worked with bonded DSL back when it was all new, you want the 2 connections as close to each other as possible (downstream & upstream rates) to get the best out of it

 

You should simply run a longer RJ45 cable (ethernet) from the modem/router to a switch somewhere else.  You are moving it for all the wrong reasons, simply run a longer RJ45 from the modem to a switch somewhere else in the house.  If you don't want to run a cable, look in to powerline adapters instead.

[Raxxath]

16 minutes ago, Falconevo said:

Leave the modem/router where it is, the dual RJ11 cable that goes in to it for bonded DSL is a custom cable which it not that hard to replicate but you shouldn't.  You want that cable as short as possible as extending it will reduce the speed of your DSL synchronisation.  Having worked with bonded DSL back when it was all new, you want the 2 connections as close to each other as possible (downstream & upstream rates) to get the best out of it

 

You should simply run a longer RJ45 cable (ethernet) from the modem/router to a switch somewhere else.  You are moving it for all the wrong reasons, simply run a longer RJ45 from the modem to a switch somewhere else in the house.  If you don't want to run a cable, look in to powerline adapters instead.

 

I'm trying to get the gateway outside of my bedroom so the wireless signal reaches the rest of the house better.

 

The only other option that I can see to accomplish this, without using a longer phone line cable, would be to buy my own wired modem to place in my bedroom, and a wireless router to place outside. But then I could have compatibility issues and of course my ISP won't offer any support for that.

[Falconevo]

1 minute ago, Raxxath said:

 

I'm trying to get the gateway outside of my bedroom so the wireless signal reaches the rest of the house better.

 

The only other option that I can see to accomplish this, without using a longer phone line cable, would be to buy my own wired modem to place in my bedroom, and a wireless router to place outside. But then I could have compatibility issues and of course my ISP won't offer any support for that.

Why not just buy a wireless access point, like a Ubiquiti AC Lite and use that for WiFi instead.  The WiFi from consumer modem/routers is completely shite.

[mynameisjuan]

23 minutes ago, Falconevo said:

Leave the modem/router where it is, the dual RJ11 cable that goes in to it for bonded DSL is a custom cable which it not that hard to replicate but you shouldn't.  You want that cable as short as possible as extending it will reduce the speed of your DSL synchronisation.  Having worked with bonded DSL back when it was all new, you want the 2 connections as close to each other as possible (downstream & upstream rates) to get the best out of it

 

You should simply run a longer RJ45 cable (ethernet) from the modem/router to a switch somewhere else.  You are moving it for all the wrong reasons, simply run a longer RJ45 from the modem to a switch somewhere else in the house.  If you don't want to run a cable, look in to powerline adapters instead.

The length of an average house will affect the connection almost none. It should spliced at the jack. It will be more stable and that way he can wire up the other jacks in the house so he can move his modem anywhere. 

[Falconevo]

6 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

The length of an average house will affect the connection almost none. It should spliced at the jack. It will be more stable and that way he can wire up the other jacks in the house so he can move his modem anywhere. 

Sorry to say, that is incorrect.  Having worked in DSL industry for well over 8 years when I was younger.  I can tell you with the upmost certainty that extending the cable past the master socket any substantial distance will reduce the sync rate, affecting the signal attenuation for a generally fixed SNR margin.  Poor quality cabling and 'making your own' extended cable is going to end badly.  When you can prevent all this by simply running a longer RJ45 from the modem/router to a switch and WiFi access point it is the most sensible choice.  

It won't affect line stability, it also won't cause the ISPs dynamic line management to kick in and reduce line rates.

[Raxxath]

Just another thought, but would a filter not allow me to extend the cable? It was mentioned by someone else I was talking to.

[mynameisjuan]

8 minutes ago, Falconevo said:

Having worked in DSL industry for well over 8 years when I was younger

*psstt* you should probably know im currently an engineer at an ISP that is head of DSL

 

Also I didnt say make his own. I told him to rewire the jack and any other jack that doesnt have a second pair should have another installed by the ISP. 

 

I never said to extend the cable because no shit that makes it worse. Again there should not be a cable like that joining the pairs. 

[mynameisjuan]

9 minutes ago, Raxxath said:

Just another thought, but would a filter not allow me to extend the cable? It was mentioned by someone else I was talking to.

No dont use a filter, nothing but problem. Call your ISP and tell them to wire it properly. 

[Falconevo]

3 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

*psstt* you should probably know im currently an engineer at an ISP that is head of DSL

 

Also I didnt say make his own. I told him to rewire the jack and any other jack that doesnt have a second pair should have another installed by the ISP. 

 

I never said to extend the cable because no shit that makes it worse. Again there should not be a cable like that joining the pairs. 

If you are, i'm not sure why you are suggesting him to rewire the socket pre-installed by the ISP.  That is ludicrous tbh, he 'ideally' shouldn't be touching any of the pre-installed cabling by the ISP.  You and I both know that if you start messing around with their cabling, they will no longer support your configuration and you are going to get charged for every engineer visit to come resolve it.

 

The most sensible option in my eyes is to simply run a long RJ45 from the modem/router to a switch, run a wireless AP from the switch and connect another other devices needed to that switch.  Turn off WiFi on the modem/router as it won't be required if he purchases a WiFi AP strong enough to cover the area needed.

[Raxxath]

4 minutes ago, Falconevo said:

You and I both know that if you start messing around with their cabling, they will no longer support your configuration and you are going to get charged for every engineer visit to come resolve it.

 

Yep, they did say this.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Falconevo said:

The most sensible option in my eyes is to simply run a long RJ45 from the modem/router to a switch, run a wireless AP from the switch and connect another other devices needed to that switch.  Turn off WiFi on the modem/router as it won't be required if he purchases a WiFi AP strong enough to cover the area needed.

 

I'm leaning towards this now. The only big downside is the cost. I was hoping to do this on the cheap, or do it in a way that gets rid of my ISP's gateway, so I didn't have to pay the $10 rental fee each month. But I guess you can't win them all.

[mynameisjuan]

3 minutes ago, Falconevo said:

If you are, i'm not sure why you are suggesting him to rewire the socket pre-installed by the ISP.  That is ludicrous tbh, he 'ideally' shouldn't be touching any of the pre-installed cabling by the ISP.  You and I both know that if you start messing around with their cabling, they will no longer support your configuration and you are going to get charged for every engineer visit to come resolve it.

 

The most sensible option in my eyes is to simply run a long RJ45 from the modem/router to a switch, run a wireless AP from the switch and connect another other devices needed to that switch.  Turn off WiFi on the modem/router as it won't be required if he purchases a WiFi AP strong enough to cover the area needed.

The ISP should of wired bonded at the jack. Its ludicrous that you think that is acceptable. No you are taking a crossed pair, separating them withing interference range and running them parallel until them tapper off. The noise the line will have will be stupid. It need to be wire to the jack and the pairs need to be twisted. 

 

The jacks need to be rewired so he can move the modem. Running an additional cable is not the solution. 

[Raxxath]

9 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

The ISP should of wired bonded at the jack. Its ludicrous that you think that is acceptable. No you are taking a crossed pair, separating them withing interference range and running them parallel until them tapper off. The noise the line will have will be stupid. It need to be wire to the jack and the pairs need to be twisted. 

 

The jacks need to be rewired so he can move the modem. Running an additional cable is not the solution. 

 

It took me a long time to figure out how your solution works, but I think I have it now. The re-wiring of the phone jack you wanted me to do was to combine those two phone lines into one inside the jack, rather than with that weird spliced cable, right? So that way I could then run a single, normal, long phone line from the jack to the modem with no issues, and still get the bonded DSL speeds.

 

My ISP only has one technician for my area, and he's notoriously awful. He actually knows less about networking than I do - I mentioned ping times to him and he had no idea what I was talking about. So maybe this whole issue comes from him not knowing how to rewire the jack properly and using this shoddy spliced cable instead.

 

 

[Falconevo]

16 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

The ISP should of wired bonded at the jack. Its ludicrous that you think that is acceptable. No you are taking a crossed pair, separating them withing interference range and running them parallel until them tapper off. The noise the line will have will be stupid. It need to be wire to the jack and the pairs need to be twisted. 

 

The jacks need to be rewired so he can move the modem. Running an additional cable is not the solution. 

Although technically that would work, the ISP won't wire bond the jack from installation.  They will use cabling provided by the modem manufacturer rather than make their own or confuse their engineers (which isn't difficult to do) I was around during the initial testing of bonded dsl for business customers in the UK and most of the modem manufacturers who wanted involvement provided the cabling for the task at hand.  ISPs won't go out of their way to make the end users cabling look neater, they really dont give a shit

 

In fact in our testing, we only had 1 modem solution from Netgear that had a combined RJ11 port on the modem side with 2 copper pairs in it for the modem.  The majority of the equipment tested back in the day had 2x RJ11 connections on the back of the modem and expected the customer to have 2x NTE sockets and run 2 separate RJ11 cables.  The bonding/routing was all done in software on the modem itself.

[Raxxath]

Would it be possible to use the Zyxel gateway as a modem and my old ASUS RT-N66U as the wireless router while keeping the ethernet ports on both devices usable?

[mynameisjuan]

3 hours ago, Raxxath said:

 

It took me a long time to figure out how your solution works, but I think I have it now. The re-wiring of the phone jack you wanted me to do was to combine those two phone lines into one inside the jack, rather than with that weird spliced cable, right? So that way I could then run a single, normal, long phone line from the jack to the modem with no issues, and still get the bonded DSL speeds.

 

My ISP only has one technician for my area, and he's notoriously awful. He actually knows less about networking than I do - I mentioned ping times to him and he had no idea what I was talking about. So maybe this whole issue comes from him not knowing how to rewire the jack properly and using this shoddy spliced cable instead.

Correct. One wire means more twisted pairs to help with interference. Also gives the benefit that if other jacks have two lets you move the modem where needed. 

 

3 hours ago, Falconevo said:

Although technically that would work, the ISP won't wire bond the jack from installation.  They will use cabling provided by the modem manufacturer rather than make their own or confuse their engineers (which isn't difficult to do) I was around during the initial testing of bonded dsl for business customers in the UK and most of the modem manufacturers who wanted involvement provided the cabling for the task at hand.  ISPs won't go out of their way to make the end users cabling look neater, they really dont give a shit

 

In fact in our testing, we only had 1 modem solution from Netgear that had a combined RJ11 port on the modem side with 2 copper pairs in it for the modem.  The majority of the equipment tested back in the day had 2x RJ11 connections on the back of the modem and expected the customer to have 2x NTE sockets and run 2 separate RJ11 cables.  The bonding/routing was all done in software on the modem itself.

All our bonded are at the jack. There is no getting around that as I dont allow it. They used to do it before with two pairs but there were so many dispatches for trouble shooting I told them its the problem. Havent had issues since. ISPs do care....I mean if you at least get me as the tech

 

Most modems that at least support VDSL have 2 pairs now in the port indicating bonding. Its better to splice out by the modem then at the jack if splicing is a must.