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Samsung's new M3 Cores: Super Wide, True Apple Competitors at Last?

Source: https://www.anandtech.com/show/12361/samsung-exynos-m3-architecture

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The Exynos 9810 was one of the first big announcements for 2018 and it was quite an exciting one. Samsung’s claims of doubling single-threaded performance was definitely an eye-catching moment and got a lot of attention. The new SoC sports four of Samsung’s third-generation Exynos M3 custom architecture cores running at up to 2.9GHz, alongside four Cortex A55 cores at 1.8GHz.

 

Usually Samsung LSI’s advertised target frequency for the CPUs doesn’t necessarily mean that the mobile division will release devices with the CPU running at those frequencies. The Exynos 8890 was advertised by SLSI to run up to 2.7GHz, while the S7 limited it to 2.6GHz. The Exynos M2’s DVFS tables showed that the CPU could go up to 2.8GHz but was rather released with a lower and more power efficient 2.3GHz clock. Similarly, it’s very possible we might see more limited clocks on an eventual Galaxy S9 with the Exynos 9810.

 

Of course even accounting for the fact that part of Samsung’s performance increase claim for the Exynos 9810 comes from the clockspeed jump from 2.3GHz to 2.9GHz, that still leave a massive performance discrepancy towards the goal of doubling single-threaded performance. Thus, this performance delta must come from the microarchitectural changes. Indeed the effective IPC increase must be in the 55-60% range for the math to make sense.

m1_m2.png

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The Exynos M3 differs greatly from the M1/M2 as it completely overhauls the front-end and also widens the back-end. The M3 front-end fetch, decode, and rename stages now increases in width by 50% to accommodate a 6-wide decoder, making the new microarchitecture among one of the widest in the mobile space alongside Apple’s CPU cores.

 

This comes at a cost however, as some undisclosed stages in the front-end become longer by 2 cycles, increasing the minimum pipeline depth from fetch to writeback from 13 to 15 stages. To counteract this, Samsung must have improved the branch predictor, however we can’t confirm for sure what individual front-end stage improvements have been made. The reorder buffer on the rename stage has seen a massive increase from 96 entries to 228 entries, pointing out that Samsung is trying to vastly increase their ability to extract instruction level parallelism to feed their back-end execution units.

 

The depiction of the schedulers are my own best guess on how the M3 looks like, as it seemed to me like the natural progression from the M1 configuration. What we do know is that the core dispatches up to 12 µops into the schedulers and we have 12 execution ports:

 

  • Two simple ALU pipelines for integer additions, same as on the M1/M2.
  • Two complex ALUs handling integer multiplication and division. The doubling of the complex pipelines means that the M3 has now double the integer multiplication throughput compared to the M1/M2.
  • Two load units. Again, the M3 here doubles the load capabilities compared to the M1 and M2.
  • A store unit port, same as on the M1/M2.
  • Two branch prediction ports, likely the same setup as on the M1/M2, capable of feeding the two branches/cycle the branch prediction unit is able to complete.
  • Instead of 2 floating point and vector pipelines, the M3 now includes 3 of them, all of them capable of complex operations, theoretically vastly increasing FP throughput.
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We’re only scratching the surface of what Samsung’s third-generation CPU microarchitecture is bringing to the table, but already one thing is clear: SLSI’s claim of doubling single-threaded performance does not seem farfetched at all. What I’ve covered here are only the high-level changes the in the pipeline configurations and we don’t know much at all about the improvements on the side of the memory subsystem. I’m still pretty sure that we’ll be looking at large increases in the cache sizes up to 512KB private L2’s for the cores with a large 4MB DSU L3. Given the floating point pipeline changes I’m also expecting massive gains for such workloads. The front-end of the M3 microarchitecture is still a mystery so here’s hoping that Samsung will be able to re-attend Hot Chips this year for a worthy follow-up presentation covering the new design.

 

With all of these performance improvements, it’s also expected that the power requirements of the core will be greatly beyond those of existing cores. This seems a natural explanation for the two-fold single-core performance increase while the multi-core improvement remains at 40% - running all cores of such a core design at full frequency would indeed showcase some very high TDP numbers.

 

If all these projections come to fruition, I have no idea how Samsung’s mobile division is planning to equalise the CPU performance between the Exynos 9810 and against an eventual Snapdragon 845 variant of the Galaxy S9, short of finding ourselves in a best-case scenario for ARM’s A75 vs a worst-case for the new Exynos M3. With 2 months to go, we’ll have to wait & see what both Samsung mobile and Samsung LSI have managed to cook up.

Ever since the A7 I think it's fair to say Apple has held a huge lead over everyone else on the market when it comes to CPU performance. Qualcomm and to a lesser extent Nvidia have remained competitive on the GPU side but due to Apple's use of very wide custom designed ARM CPU cores it has maintained a very large cpu performance advantage over everyone else, with estimates from benchmarks like geekbench 4 implying that Apple could be enjoying as much of a 2x performance lead compared to every single other major mobile CPU on the market.

 

However, it seems that this may be no more. With the new M3 cores Samsung is advertising as much as a 2x performance jump over the prior generation M2 cores, which would most likely put performance very close to that of the high performance cores in Apple's new A11 Bionic chip used in the iPhone 8, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X. 

 

In order to do this they've not only raised clock speeds a fair bit (from 2.3 ghz to around 2.8, a 20% ish jump in and of itself). However, they've widened the core a lot to give a more AMD, Intel, and Apple like design that it sounds like will bring with it a HUGE performance jump when it comes to IPC: Perhaps over 50%. For reference, the Snapdragon 845 sounds like it will only get around a 30% performance jump compared to the 835, clock speed and IPC jumps all included.

 

This is really exciting, as it sounds like we may finally have a CPU that can compete with Apple in performance and power. If Samsung's claims are true I wouldn't be surprised if the S9 only uses Exynos chips as it sounds like the 9810 will hold a really big performance advantage over the Snapdragon 845. This might put more pressure on other CPU designers like Qualcomm to create wider CPU cores and could really push the market forward. I look forward to the next few years when it comes to mobile CPU performance and it sounds like we could see some real performance jumps now.

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Interesting. Yet at the same time, I don't think it will beat Apple in benchmarks or speeds.

1) Samsung has to throttle the cpu's from being too much faster than the Snapdragon 845 unless they want an outcry on their hands from their U.S. based customers.

2) Apple iOS is optimized purely for Apple iPhones and their bionic chipsets. The iOS system is much faster and lightweight than Samsung's custom OS which is a modified version of Android (forgot the name of the os). If Samsung starts shipping their phones with these processors and a completely stock and stripped down Android Oreo, then they will have a chance to actually get ahead Apple

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Haha, I like how the bars of the division and FP just fades out to hide how much more time they actually need.

Also, let me know how large the performance gain is after patching for specter and meltdown....

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This is very good for every consumer, regardless of what you use. This will push apple and Qualcomm to make even faster chips to compete.

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7 minutes ago, sazrocks said:

This is very good for every consumer, regardless of what you use. This will push apple and Qualcomm to make even faster chips to compete.

Not really.

 

None of them actually compete right now. They all occupy their own space.

Qualcomm has had plenty of opportunity to go down this path but they don't have to nor do they want to. They're content to compete through co-processor and wireless technology. That's pretty much been their strategy for the past 5 years and was officially cemented last year.

 

And Apple... They don't really care much what happens in Android space. Otherwise they wouldn't have leapfrogged their own processors year over year while all other ARM processors were stumbling along.

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I’d rather see Samsung make some Windows 10S devices using their own in house silicon. I wonder if the cache and IPC are on par with Apple as those are two of the reasons why Apple is ahead of Qualcomm. 

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41 minutes ago, Airdragonz said:

1) Samsung has to throttle the cpu's from being too much faster than the Snapdragon 845 unless they want an outcry on their hands from their U.S. based customers.

Or like they have done before, completely exclude Qualcomm's 845 SoC from this year's line of phones.

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50 minutes ago, Airdragonz said:

1) Samsung has to throttle the cpu's from being too much faster than the Snapdragon 845 unless they want an outcry on their hands from their U.S. based customers.

Or they can use exynos in all their phones, like they did with the S6. 

50 minutes ago, Airdragonz said:

2) Apple iOS is optimized purely for Apple iPhones and their bionic chipsets. The iOS system is much faster and lightweight than Samsung's custom OS which is a modified version of Android (forgot the name of the os). If Samsung starts shipping their phones with these processors and a completely stock and stripped down Android Oreo, then they will have a chance to actually get ahead Apple

Samsung's "bloat" doesn't really affect benchmarks and stuff as evidenced by the S8, for example, not losing to the pixel 2. Rather, the bloat mainly impacts fps while doing stuff like scrolling through web pages, during which the SoC doesn't usually jump to max performance states. 

 

I don't think it really makes sense for an OS like ios to be able to improve processor performance. Rather, it would be down to optimizations on individual applications that would actually do this. If such optimizations at the OS level could improve performance, I think we'd see a bigger performance delta between the same SoC from different manufacturers. 

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Now the question remains as to whether or not Android will take advantage of the extra width, or if it (Samsung's M3) will be the proverbial albatross that increases power consumption for little gain. Apple has control over iOS, so it makes sense to go wider. Android predominantly runs on a greater quantity of much narrower cores, and is probably optimized as such.

 

This should be interesting. 

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3 hours ago, CUDA_Cores said:

Wait, Super wide cores you say:

 

 

On an unrelated note, someone made a battlefront 2 mod for that

 

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4 hours ago, Airdragonz said:

Interesting. Yet at the same time, I don't think it will beat Apple in benchmarks or speeds.

Yes, because Geekbench matters... Jk. But seriously.

4 hours ago, Airdragonz said:

1) Samsung has to throttle the cpu's from being too much faster than the Snapdragon 845 unless they want an outcry on their hands from their U.S. based customers.

I'm like super uneducated in this department. Could you explain this for me? I don't get the reference, so I don't understand the statement.

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The problem if Samsung manages to catch up: congratulations, you're roughly even with Apple for 6 months, until the A12 comes out and puts Apple ahead again.  Most likely, the Exynos 9810 would need to have a clear lead over the A11 to make Apple nervous about the speed of its 2018 iPhones.

 

Having said all that: if there's a dramatic speed boost, it's still good news for Galaxy S fans.  The S9 sounds like it'll mostly be an iterative upgrade, so having a tangible speed difference will make it easier to justify... at least, if you're coming from an S7 or earlier.

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43 minutes ago, Ryujin2003 said:

I'm like super uneducated in this department. Could you explain this for me? I don't get the reference, so I don't understand the statement

The markets getting the 845 version feel shafted that they're spending a shit ton of money, but not getting the same package that a similar amount of money in a different currency would get them elsewhere.

 

It'd be like Apple offering the 5S and 8 in the same exact body, called it the same thing, but limited them to nonintersecting markets. Assuming that the M3 is everything that it's reported to be.

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7 hours ago, DocSwag said:

This is really exciting, as it sounds like we may finally have a CPU that can compete with Apple in performance and power. 

Does everyone forget that Denver V2/V3 exists? Or does it just not get counted because it's not *technically* using the ARM ISA?

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5 hours ago, Commodus said:

The problem if Samsung manages to catch up: congratulations, you're roughly even with Apple for 6 months, until the A12 comes out and puts Apple ahead again.  Most likely, the Exynos 9810 would need to have a clear lead over the A11 to make Apple nervous about the speed of its 2018 iPhones.

 

Having said all that: if there's a dramatic speed boost, it's still good news for Galaxy S fans.  The S9 sounds like it'll mostly be an iterative upgrade, so having a tangible speed difference will make it easier to justify... at least, if you're coming from an S7 or earlier.

Apple's gains in core design are slowing. That's why they're working on many uncore things to make sure the gains are still there. Besides they're on different schedules so it's only natural for Apple to be ahead after the fact.

 

There's probably a bigger reason to upgrade from an S8 to S9 than there was from iPhone 7 to 8. There are a lot of changes here and there (slight design changes, cameras, software to name a few).

3 hours ago, Sniperfox47 said:

Does everyone forget that Denver V2/V3 exists? Or does it just not get counted because it's not *technically* using the ARM ISA?

How ubiquitous are Denver cores again?

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8 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Now the question remains as to whether or not Android will take advantage of the extra width, or if it (Samsung's M3) will be the proverbial albatross that increases power consumption for little gain. Apple has control over iOS, so it makes sense to go wider. Android predominantly runs on a greater quantity of much narrower cores, and is probably optimized as such.

 

This should be interesting. 

To be fair Android is open-source it’s not like Samsung can get their act together and optimise it just a little. Maybe even see how Bada would run.

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51 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

To be fair Android is open-source it’s not like Samsung can get their act together and optimise it just a little. Maybe even see how Bada would run.

Their latest software is decently optimized. In fact in some tests they're in the same ballpark as Pixel and OnePlus devices. With that being said they could still stop bloating their software. Even if optimized, Samsung doesn't have a reputation for lean software and they do have a tendency to introduce new bugs.

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10 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

Their latest software is decently optimized. In fact in some tests they're in the same ballpark as Pixel and OnePlus devices. With that being said they could still stop bloating their software. Even if optimized, Samsung doesn't have a reputation for lean software and they do have a tendency to introduce new bugs.

Should expect more from a top tier Android company. They have played the game long enough to know they can’t beat fully optimised firmware. 

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27 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

Should expect more from a top tier Android company. They have played the game long enough to know they can’t beat fully optimised firmware. 

Well, I suspect with the S9 it'll be better than Pixel in software if they continue the trend and add to that sheer brute force with an Apple-esque SoC, I think you'll find the experience very good. It's actually quite impressive that a Pixel has an Apple-like feel to it but has significantly lower processing power.

In any case, I give credit where credit is due and the Note8 was somehow miles better than the S8 despite sharing the same platform so I have high hopes for the S9 with Oreo and the latest iteration of Samsung Experience. Unless of course we end up with a similar situation where the new software is slow on S9 but gets fixed 6 months later with Note9.

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2 hours ago, Trixanity said:

How ubiquitous are Denver cores again?

They're in pretty much every self driving car being marketed in the past two years, and a number of higher end commercial drones. How ubiquitous are Apple's cores?

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20 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

They're in pretty much every self driving car being marketed in the past two years, and a number of higher end commercial drones. How ubiquitous are Apple's cores?

Intel is in pretty much every laptop and desktop but how does this help phones again?

 

While Samsung is clearly pushing custom cores to expand their market beyond phones and tablets (same goes for Apple), it doesn't really matter if high performance cores exist in other markets. It's a pretty pointless comparison if there is no overlap. If Apple launched an automotive SoC, you'd be free to compare to your heart's content but having designed Denver core that have no place in phones when talking phone SoCs is irrelevant. Nvidia gave up on that market - competition too fierce.

 

You could argue high performance wide cores are just that regardless of market but then we'd have to start making odd comparisons across market segments and TDP. That would in most cases be a silly exercise.

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1 minute ago, Trixanity said:

You could argue high performance wide cores are just that regardless of market but then we'd have to start making odd comparisons across market segments and TDP. That would in most cases be a silly exercise.

But like... they're both low TDP, ultra-low voltage, AArch64 chips. And Android runs just fine on the Jetson TX2 board, so it's not even that much of an Apples to oranges comparison.

 

The Drive PX2 is an automotive chipset, but the X2 itself is not an automotive SoC. It's in the 7-15W TDP which is totally realistic for a larger phablet/tablet. It's the exact same TDP range as the X1, used in the Pixel C and Nintendo Switch.

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Now if Samsung could put out a good tablet with this chip I'd be very happy. It's amazing how no company except Sony seems to know how to make a tablet, and they gave up on that idea.

 

14 hours ago, Airdragonz said:

2) Apple iOS is optimized purely for Apple iPhones and their bionic chipsets. The iOS system is much faster and lightweight than Samsung's custom OS which is a modified version of Android (forgot the name of the os). If Samsung starts shipping their phones with these processors and a completely stock and stripped down Android Oreo, then they will have a chance to actually get ahead Apple

I would like a source on these claims you made:

1) iOS is optimized for the specific processor used in the iPhones.

2) That iOS requires less resources to run than Android.

3) That the changes Samsung makes reduces performance.

 

I am getting pretty tired of people always saying these things with no source or evidence to back it up.

 

 

14 hours ago, Stefan1024 said:

Also, let me know how large the performance gain is after patching for specter and meltdown....

Well, that will need to be applied to all processors so overall the percentages shouldn't change much.

 

 

11 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Now the question remains as to whether or not Android will take advantage of the extra width, or if it (Samsung's M3) will be the proverbial albatross that increases power consumption for little gain. Apple has control over iOS, so it makes sense to go wider. Android predominantly runs on a greater quantity of much narrower cores, and is probably optimized as such.

 

This should be interesting. 

That's not how OS schedulers work...

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18 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

But like... they're both low TDP, ultra-low voltage, AArch64 chips. And Android runs just fine on the Jetson TX2 board, so it's not even that much of an Apples to oranges comparison.

 

The Drive PX2 is an automotive chipset, but the X2 itself is not an automotive SoC. It's in the 7-15W TDP which is totally realistic for a larger phablet/tablet. It's the exact same TDP range as the X1, used in the Pixel C and Nintendo Switch.

At the same TDP you can certainly start comparing performance but what's the point? You're not going to see Xavier in a phone nor will you see A11 in a car. They don't compete. Their purposes are different. The closest you'd get would be an updated Shield with Xavier but is that really disruptive? While probably the best Android TV on the market, I'd consider it pretty niche in the grand scheme of things. Hence the ubiquity comment. 

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