Theoretical AC vs DC question regarding future of electricity and PCs

[SubLimation7]

I'm probably getting in a little over my head here, I only know enough about electricity to get myself in trouble...  Maybe you guys will spark my interest enough for me to spend days researching electricity.

 

But what if Edison won, would power supplies still be necessary? 

 

I know that back then, with the current tech they basically had to use AC for long distance transmission, but now that we are getting better DC converters and they are starting to  run lines with them.... 

 

Anyone in the industry know if DC lines are the future, and if so, could this potentially eliminate the need for power supplies in computers??  The main thing holding back compact designs?

 

Just curious...

[Godlygamer23]

You would still need power supplies to split the voltage between all the rails.

[Theguywhobea]

You'd need voltage dividers but those are easy. The difference is that everyone would need a generator in their house as you can transmit DC long distances without significant losses like you can with AC. So you'd have a big ass generator in your basement you'd be pouring gas or diesel into everyday. Essentially there is no way Edison would have every really won in the long run, even if he had won back then.

[SubLimation7]

4 minutes ago, Godlygamer23 said:

You would still need power supplies to split the voltage between all the rails.

I guess no way something like that could be embedded into motherboard? 

[SubLimation7]

1 minute ago, Theguywhobea said:

You'd need voltage dividers but those are easy. The difference is that everyone would need a generator in their house as you can transmit DC long distances without significant losses like you can with AC. So you'd have a big ass generator in your basement you'd be pouring gas or diesel into everyday. Essentially there is no way Edison would have every really won in the long run, even if he had won back then.

I was reading that with modern tech that DC could be ran long distances, could have been bogus info though.  And I imagine you meant can't transmit DC long distances without significant losses.\

 

But yeah I know Edison was wanting to put coal burners every few blocks... good thing that didn't happen lol.

[Godlygamer23]

Just now, SubLimation7 said:

I guess no way something like that could be embedded into motherboard? 

The motherboard already does that with the CPU and memory, but not to the same degree. 

[straight_stewie]

9 minutes ago, SubLimation7 said:

Anyone in the industry know if DC lines are the future, and if so, could this potentially eliminate the need for power supplies in computers??  The main thing holding back compact designs?

No. And here's why:

Straight from the Department of Energy:
 

Quote

Edison developed direct current -- current that runs continually in a single direction, like in a battery or a fuel cell. During the early years of electricity, direct current (shorthanded as DC) was the standard in the U.S. But there was one problem. Direct current is not easily converted to higher or lower voltages.
 

Tesla believed that alternating current (or AC) was the solution to this problem. Alternating current reverses direction a certain number of times per second -- 60 in the U.S. -- and can be converted to different voltages relatively easily using a transformer.

As for how much easier it would be to design computers if what came out of your wall was a bunch of cables that were magically exactly what the computer needed to be plugged into? Well, it would make it about that much easier.

[Theguywhobea]

Just now, SubLimation7 said:

I was reading that with modern tech that DC could be ran long distances, could have been bogus info though.  And I imagine you meant can't transmit DC long distances without significant losses.

Yeah, I don't honestly know if they have made anything to make DC transmit long distances efficiently but I think it might be an inherent property of DC and how electrons flow, so it'd only be optimizations that would only ever approach AC.

[SubLimation7]

2 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

No. And here's why:

Straight from the Department of Energy:
 

 

And I counter with Straight from TDworld!

Some good points in it, especially when you think of the aspect of renewable energy "devices".

 

That department of energy article didn't have any relevant points.

[straight_stewie]

2 minutes ago, SubLimation7 said:

And I counter with Straight from TDworld!

Did you actually read this article?

About 90% of it was actually just reasons why DC power would be cool, rather than reasons why DC power is coming.

[SubLimation7]

4 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

Did you actually read this article?

About 90% of it was actually just reasons why DC power would be cool, rather than reasons why DC power is coming.

Hardly,

 

"1. Many new long-distance transmission lines in the U.S., Asia and Europe are moving toward ultra-high-voltage DC (HVDC). HVDC can carry five to eight times the amount of power along a given transmission right-of-way compared to high-voltage AC systems. HVDC applied widely can lead to the elimination of wide-scale cascading blackouts, and today’s voltage-sourced converter technology (VSC) allows for DC networking. In the U.S. and Canada, where we are seeing the emergence of HVDC merchant transmission, many projects apply to transport electricity from major wind and solar farms. All of China’s new high-voltage transmission is planned and built as HVDC. Europe is expanding and upgrading much of its transmission infrastructure with HVDC, including interconnection of nations and continents."

 

FWIW this article isn't what started my curiosity, I was reading on Quora about stuffs and started reading about new DC converters and HVDC.

[Siedge]

Solar generation happens at a DC level, so for instance, my solar goes from DC to A/C and then as devices get plugged in they convert back to D/C, rather inefficient and I've often thought at how nice it would be to not need that conversion.

[SubLimation7]

Just now, Siedge said:

Solar generation happens at a DC level, so for instance, my solar goes from DC to A/C and then as devices get plugged in they convert back to D/C, rather inefficient and I've often thought at how nice it would be to not need that conversion.

Yeah and storage is going to be a huge thing with renewable energy.

[straight_stewie]

Just now, SubLimation7 said:

FWIW this article isn't what started my curiosity, I was reading on Quora about stuffs and started reading about new DC converters and HVDC.

Points 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, and 10 quite literally say "here's things that DC would be good at".

If you need a hard number on how much of the article is actually just saying "DC would be cool" then it's 70%. My initial estimate was a little high.

[SubLimation7]

3 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

Points 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, and 10 quite literally say "here's things that DC would be good at".

If you need a hard number on how much of the article is actually just saying "DC would be cool" then it's 70%. My initial estimate was a little high.

Dude...  I don't really consider valid points "reasons it would be cool", I mean I guess you aren't technically wrong, but the wording illustrates a bit differently than you might have been going for?  Especially combined with "Did you actually read this article?"

[cj09beira]

4 minutes ago, SubLimation7 said:

And I counter with Straight from TDworld!

sure lets compare apples to oranges,

1 - the bigger energy consumers are usually large motors spinning things, which are more efficient under ac,

2 - the reduced amount of cables is actually a problem as its more expensive, because you need much thicker cable for dc, and 3 smaller cables actually reduce       the amount of copper needed.

3 - lets compare a higher voltage system to a lower one and pretend it doesn't make a difference, it very well does, and its not a fair comparison.

3 - having 10% losses at the last meter of the system is  much better than having the bigger losses on most of the line (in case of dc hardware)

 

[burnttoastnice]

16 minutes ago, SubLimation7 said:

Anyone in the industry know if DC lines are the future, and if so, could this potentially eliminate the need for power supplies in computers??  The main thing holding back compact designs?

AC voltage is very interesting in itself.

• It runs at a 50hz frequency (60hz in US), so it can be used as a timer in cheap products
• The EMF caused by switching from positive to negative so frequently allows AC voltages to be easily converted up and down just by using a transformer
• Using transformers to convert voltage allows supplies to be completely electrically isolated from mains, as power is transferred over a magnetic field
• The switching from positive and negative (sinusoidal nature) allows AC relays to operate at higher voltages without too much concern over arcing; as soon as a high current device gets disconnected, an arc forms for a fraction of a second until the voltage dips.
• Special arrangement of capacitors and bridge rectifiers allow AC voltages to be regulated into a positive and negative DC supply, i.e. +12v, 0v, -12v. Most older amplifiers use this kind of design internally

 

9 minutes ago, SubLimation7 said:

I guess no way something like that could be embedded into motherboard? 

The motherboard does that to some extent already, but having the motherboard doing all the power conversion would make it much more expensive, having lots of metal blocks and random fans placed all over the place to cool down the power equipment. Plus, PCs wouldn't be as modular, and then the motherboards power delivery would be a limiting factor in how powerful a gpu can be installed etc unless gpus started shipping with dedicated power supplies.

[straight_stewie]

7 minutes ago, SubLimation7 said:

Dude...  I don't really consider valid points "reasons it would be cool", I mean I guess you aren't technically wrong, but the wording illustrates a bit differently than you might have been going for?  Especially combined with "Did you actually read this article?"

I don't consider valid points "reasons it would be cool" either, that's why you should stop relying on that article that only makes that type of point and understand that currently, there is little indication that the United States will switch to DC transmission anytime in the foreseeable future.

The DOE themselves says that it isn't viable, I think that's a pretty good indicator of the type of support that DC transmission has.

[SubLimation7]

3 hours ago, cj09beira said:

sure lets compare apples to oranges,

1 - the bigger energy consumers are usually large motors spinning things, which are more efficient under ac,

2 - the reduced amount of cables is actually a problem as its more expensive, because you need much thicker cable for dc, and 3 smaller cables actually reduce       the amount of copper needed.

3 - lets compare a higher voltage system to a lower one and pretend it doesn't make a difference, it very well does, and its not a fair comparison.

3 - having 10% losses at the last meter of the system is  much better than having the bigger losses on most of the line (in case of dc hardware)

 

Time to look at exactly how Tesla's (the car company, which I'm sure use AC since his company is named after Nikola....) store and convert their power.  That guy seems to be on the forefront, so if there is any new tech worth using that brings DC up to par I'm sure he's using it.  (I used to build DC motors for airsoft guns, so that obviously translates to the best solution for a modern car)

 

Alright I've got it!  Here's exactly why Tesla uses AC in their electric motors.

"Furthermore, it’s been pointed out that if a DC motor had been used, then Tesla Motors couldn’t be called Tesla Motors, given that Nikola Tesla was into AC, not DC."

#GetEnlightened

 

Update: In case it wasn't obvious, a good bit of the above is sarcasm...

So other electric cars use brushless DC motors, Tesla uses a 3 phase 4 pole AC motor.

Pretty cool how simple it is really, Just copper instead of rotor,  double the poles,  and then use 3 staggered power phases instead of 1 so that you triple the rate of magnetism to 3x per second,  basically the same as increasing cylinders in a car.

 

Good read: https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/30/nikola-teslas-19th-century-induction-motor-ideal-choice-21st-century-electric-car/

[SubLimation7]

33 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

I don't consider valid points "reasons it would be cool" either, that's why you should stop relying on that article that only makes that type of point and understand that currently, there is little indication that the United States will switch to DC transmission anytime in the foreseeable future.

The DOE themselves says that it isn't viable, I think that's a pretty good indicator of the type of support that DC transmission has.

The future stretches for quite a long time (hopefully forever, but I haven't been there yet), no one is relying on that one article, and this isn't really a yes/no type question regardless of your' stance, if big countries are doing it I imagine there is something potentially there, the past serves as many good examples but people down-talked every new emerging tech before it got widespread.

 

Sometimes you have to think outside the box a bit, the other people on this thread are adding useful info but it seems like you're giving knee-jerk reactions, "bunch of cables that were magically exactly what the computer needed to be plugged into".  An article from the DOE that only talks about Tesla vs Edison and then acknowledges that due to recent innovations the battle of AC vs DC is not over... lol

 

Tesla (car) is actually a great example of this, electric cars are piles of poop right, all these huge companies can't get it.  Then here comes Mr. Elon Musk not scared to think outside of the box designs (with his team) his own engine and not only destroyed the competition, but is up to 600 mile range (new roadster) while having hands down the fastest acceleration out of ANY car, idc if you look in the multi-million dollar range.  While everyone else is using brushless DC (electric cars), he chose to craft his own take on AC electric motors.

 

Go read through this entire page, and remember, the future isn't really something you can quantify.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current

 

First chunk

"A high-voltage, direct current (HVDC) electric power transmission system (also called a power super highway or an electrical super highway)^[1][2][3][4] uses direct current for the bulk transmission of electrical power, in contrast with the more common alternating current (AC) systems.^[5] For long-distance transmission, HVDC systems may be less expensive and suffer lower electrical losses. For underwater power cables, HVDC avoids the heavy currents required to charge and discharge the cable capacitance each cycle. For shorter distances, the higher cost of DC conversion equipment compared to an AC system may still be justified, due to other benefits of direct current links."

 

I've gotta go finish reading about how Tesla (car) electric motors are designed, I'll finish the wikipedia page with you in a moment, isn't learning fun?

[cj09beira]

1 minute ago, SubLimation7 said:

Time to look at exactly how Tesla's (the car company, which I'm sure use AC since his company is named after Nikola....) store and convert their power.  That guy seems to be on the forefront, so if there is any new tech worth using that brings DC up to par I'm sure he's using it.  

dc is inherently worse there is no way around that, maybe if you were using superconductors, but like anyone would use them for such a large grid.

tesla uses a dc battery and a very very good ac motor, 

plus renewable energies aren't inherently better, as solar takes way too much space, wind is way too unpredictable and both are very expensive, plus i dont like the idea that we are disturbing the earths energy cycle, (i don't want the core to cool down at all) the enrgy of the future is the much feared nuclear energy, as in the 80s a new reaactor was being developed, one which was set to resolve most of the problems of the ones used today, its a molten salt reactor

1 it uses thorium as a fuel (what other reactors make as waste)

2 it controls its own temperature, because when temperature rises too much the nuclear fuel in the molten salt gets farther away from each other and so reduces heat, it it gets too cold it will make the fuel get closer and will make more heat

3 there is no need for high pressure steam, because of that the risk of explosions of steam are much smaller, and the effects off such incident are small too

4 in case of a leak the salt solidifies and closes the wound 

but the research money was pulled due to not producing/using fuel for nuclear bombs 

 

[SubLimation7]

41 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

dc is inherently worse there is no way around that, maybe if you were using superconductors, but like anyone would use them for such a large grid.

tesla uses a dc battery and a very very good ac motor, 

plus renewable energies aren't inherently better, as solar takes way too much space, wind is way too unpredictable and both are very expensive, plus i dont like the idea that we are disturbing the earths energy cycle, (i don't want the core to cool down at all) the enrgy of the future is the much feared nuclear energy, as in the 80s a new reaactor was being developed, one which was set to resolve most of the problems of the ones used today, its a molten salt reactor

1 it uses thorium as a fuel (what other reactors make as waste)

2 it controls its own temperature, because when temperature rises too much the nuclear fuel in the molten salt gets farther away from each other and so reduces heat, it it gets too cold it will make the fuel get closer and will make more heat

3 there is no need for high pressure steam, because of that the risk of explosions of steam are much smaller, and the effects off such incident are small too

4 in case of a leak the salt solidifies and closes the wound 

but the research money was pulled due to not producing/using fuel for nuclear bombs 

 

Good ole corruption and greed stifling innovation....  I'll have to convince myself that DC is inherently worse because I'm reading conflicting things, I'm sure the final "answer" will be something along the lines of DC is better for x,y,z; while AC is better for a,b,c lol. 

 

But it will be a long night, once I open a can of worms I have to eat them... I'll probably read about 6 essays worth of literature now that my curiosity has been piqued.

 

Not at all saying you're wrong, you sound like you know what you are talking about but so much misinformation these days ya know.

 

[cj09beira]

2 minutes ago, SubLimation7 said:

Good ole corruption and greed stifling innovation....  I'll have to convince myself that DC is inherently worse because I'm reading conflicting things.

 

But it will be a long night, once I open a can of worms I have to eat them... I'll probably read about 6 essays worth of literature now that my curiosity has been peaked. 

 

Not at all saying you're wrong, you sound like you know what you are talking about but so much misinformation these days ya know.

if i was trying to find that out, i would look no further than electromagnetism books and courses, as thats the physics behind all that, as ac is just an electromagnetic wave,

[cj09beira]

if you find anything else, post it here i will make sure to follow this

[SubLimation7]

Just now, cj09beira said:

if i was trying to find that out, i would look no further than electromagnetism books and courses, as thats the physics behind all that, as ac is just an electromagnetic wave,

Thank you, that's actually really good info.  I knew it was an electromagnetic wave but a nod to the proper literature is greatly appreciated.