Let's not go with group regulated units, like the M12II. Thanks.

[LienusLateTips]

USED TO BE TITLED: Why you shouldn't buy a S12II/M12II in 2017 (or later years)

Last updated: 28 December 108 (2019)

 

Many lower end units still these days are made with group regulation! Most of the market isn't educated on this, so companies continue to use older designs with group regulation.

 

Nowadays, the 12V line is used by pretty much anything that uses power. Graphics cards. Your CPU. Fans. Some of the motherboard. RGB LEDs!!! 

 

Some common examples include:

• Antec - HCG Gamer 520/620, EarthWatts, Basiq
• Cooler Master - Elite V2/V3, MWE White (old), MWE Bronze (old), MasterWatt Lite
• Corsair - VS, CX (green/old), CXM (430/500/600), GS
• Deepcool - DA, DA-M
• EVGA - BR/BT, B1, W1, N1, N2, SUPERNOVA NEX/G1\
• FSP - Raider, Hexa
• Rosewill - Glacier, Hive/Hive S, Arc/Arc M, Fortress
• SeaSonic - M12D, M12II, S12II

 

Problem 1: The 12V line and 5V line are regulated together.

Back in the day, most things used 5V and a bit of 3.3V. They've went from powering almost everything on the board to pretty much just storage and some DRAM. The load on it is so low, that it causes issues with modern PCs.

In group regulation PSUs, the two rails are averaged out and regulated together. This means in a modern system, if you load the 12V a bit too far, which happens often, you'll get a uncontrolled 5V rail, and it'll start going out of ATX spec.

Symptoms include shorter lifespan of components, burnt cables, and dead components, the latter two less common. They can also go the other way, if only the 3.3V and 5V rails are loaded up. While they look alright in testing, when you look at crossload testing (loading up only one rail), you'll see the out of spec regulation.

 

Problem 2: They can't handle extreme low loads

The required minimum load to pass ATX spec as of Haswell on 12V is 0.05A. Most group regulated units again can't do this due to the aforementioned crossload issues.

 

You can see a couple units failing ATX spec here:

https://www.jonnyguru.com/blog/2018/11/26/evga-450bt-450w-power-supply/3/

https://www.jonnyguru.com/blog/2018/11/12/evga-750n1-750w-power-supply/3/

while it's not exclusive to evga, these were on the front page of jonnyguru

 

Problem 3: OTHER UNITS WITH DC-DC EXIST, AT NOT MUCH MORE!
The Corsair CX/CXM¹! be Quiet! Pure Power 10/11²! EVGA B3, Cooler Master MasterWatt, Bitfenix Formula Gold! Even options a bit more expensive like the Corsair TXM, Gigabyte G750H, and the Rosewill Capstone. These are all good options at a price usually not double. If you CAN'T afford any of these, try searching for a dual mag amp option like the S12III.... they're at least better than many group reg PSUs.

 

TL;DR: They have big regulation issues and have much better competitors at around the same price.

 

_{1. Model numbers ending in x50}

^{2. If you are in US, look on Newegg for prices for these units, PCPartPicker glitches out the prices on their site. 400W and up only. 300W/350W models are group regulated.}

[79wjd]

I've been wondering something......What will PSUs look like in another 7 years? Will the P2/Prime/AX be considered "crap" (or just above crap since they are a few calibers better than the M12/S12 ever were).

 

E.g. what else could be added/tweaked on high end PSUs that already have protections on everything, and good regulation, temp ratings, etc... to make them so much better? 

[aisle9]

RIP Seasonic 12 series, may the three of you that I own carry on for many years to come.

 

 

[Blebekblebek]

Not entirely agreeing with that statement.

a good unit is a good unit, it may not good for today standard but it was great for it's time.

 

Seasonic unlike other brand that I know, won't modified/change their parts of choice at least not for this series (CMIIW), It's one of the most consistent brand to make power supply.

 

Lot's of brand change the parts overtime, like changing the original capacitor that rated from 105c to 85c, etc.

While the type name maybe discontinued, I think they just to update it with newer tech/parts that meets current standard.

[LienusLateTips]

8 minutes ago, Blebekblebek said:

Not entirely agreeing with that statement.

a good unit is a good unit, it may not good for today standard but it was great for it's time.

 

Seasonic unlike other brand that I know, won't modified/change their parts of choice at least not for this series (CMIIW), It's one of the most consistent brand to make power supply.

 

Lot's of brand change the parts overtime, like changing the original capacitor that rated from 105c to 85c, etc.

While the type name maybe discontinued, I think they just to update it with newer tech/parts that meets current standard.

I'm not saying it wasn't great for it's time. It was a great value when it was introduced. However, in 2017, I wouldn't buy a group regulated design with no OCP for any important or gaming computer. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, djdwosk97 said:

I've been wondering something......What will PSUs look like in another 7 years? Will the P2/Prime/AX be considered "crap" (or just above crap since they are a few calibers better than the M12/S12 ever were).

 

E.g. what else could be added/tweaked on high end PSUs that already have protections on everything, and good regulation, temp ratings, etc... to make them so much better? 

Don't need seven years.

 

Just have a look at the Intel PSU DSG 1.4 and the CEC (California Energy Commision) requirements.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Blebekblebek said:

Lot's of brand change the parts overtime, like changing the original capacitor that rated from 105c to 85c, etc.

Lots of brands, eh?

 

Examples?

 

[Blebekblebek]

37 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

Lots of brands, eh?

 

Examples?

 

I live in indonesia so most brand are locals, the recent ones is when Muscle Power (this is a PSU only brand, not the memory) swtichng OEM from CWT/Seasonic to another local brand.

 

For international brand the the famous one is FSP 85+ rated that switch the 105c capacitor to 85c capacitor, the original thread was from computer magazine chip forums which is now dead since the magazine is no longer published, the distributor even make an apologize letter to public.

Acbel, for the 550w unit, and some lower end Super Flower model.

 

Most also been archived here https://www.kaskus.co.id/thread/586ded6031e2e64f618b456d/new-recommend-psu---part-8/ (this is part 8, each part is 500 Pages long)

 

Unlike other country I've seen so many different units than other unit from the rest of the world with the same type.

I don't know why, or how it happen, that is the situation with market here.

 

[Stefan Payne]

3 hours ago, djdwosk97 said:

I've been wondering something......What will PSUs look like in another 7 years? Will the P2/Prime/AX be considered "crap" (or just above crap since they are a few calibers better than the M12/S12 ever were).

Nobody knows.

ATX already is 20 years old - 10 years older than its predecessor.

 

So that means that ATX can be repealed and replaced any day now.

And nobody knows how that repealed and replaced would look like.

The most likely thing to happen is to get rid of the +3,3V and -5V rail, reduce the max amperage of +5V or make it +12V Only.

 

Besides that it also is possible that the +5VSB rail will be replaced with a +12V Standby rail as well. Maybe other things could happen as well...

 

 

Quote

E.g. what else could be added/tweaked on high end PSUs that already have protections on everything, and good regulation, temp ratings, etc... to make them so much better? 

They don't!

Many high end units still lack protection. OTP is still rare these days, many PSU don't even have UVP on +12V, those also don't have OCP on +12V either.

 

Also multiple +12V Rails are really really rare these days and especially on 750W and above needed...

 

2 hours ago, Blebekblebek said:

Not entirely agreeing with that statement.

a good unit is a good unit, it may not good for today standard but it was great for it's time.

No.

 

First a good unit in 2003 is total garbage today because things change...

In this example the first thing that changed is the load distribution. In those days the load on those rails were higher and more important, load on +12V was low.

And independently regulated units were rare, if available at all.

These days the load on +5V is irrelevant, only +12V counts. If you use one of those units with modern systems, the rails will be out of spec. +5V too high, +12V too low. If you're lucky, its something inside the spec.

 

Also what you are missing is the protection of the unit and the importance of protections on all rails!

That isn't something this unit has. So if a highish ohm short on either rail happens, the PSU won't shut off and components might catch on fire...

 

So no, that doesn't make it a good unit, at best it's an OKish one.

If Seasonic hadn't cheaped out on the protection IC it might have been rather good for the time, though still a lower end unit that still didn't deserve the hype it got...

Quote

Seasonic unlike other brand that I know, won't modified/change their parts of choice at least not for this series (CMIIW), It's one of the most consistent brand to make power supply.

That's not true.

There was a running change in the S12II/M12II series.

The earlier models had falsly advertized two rails and a double Ball Bearing Jamicon or Adda fan.

With the newer models, the fan was replaced with a Hong Hua FDB fan (if its better or not can be argued. I think the old one was better) and also the lie on the label was corrected.

So no, every manufacturer does running changes, if there is a good reason for that!

 

Quote

Lot's of brand change the parts overtime, like changing the original capacitor that rated from 105c to 85c, etc.

Why the hell do people get so hung up on the primary bulk capacitor?!
That part is one of the least important parts in a PSU...

 

The most important part is still the protection IC and that it has OCP on all rails and, if possible, OTP as well.

Quote

While the type name maybe discontinued, I think they just to update it with newer tech/parts that meets current standard.

WHY?
That would make a shitty unit compared to competitors.

 

For the same price you get units with DC-DC left and right from almost all manufacturers...
And also with modern PSU the caps don't get that hot no more. What I've measured was around 45°C at around 20°C room temperature. And that was a worst case in a semi fanless unit...

 

 

[79wjd]

16 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Nobody knows.

ATX already is 20 years old - 10 years older than its predecessor.

 

So that means that ATX can be repealed and replaced any day now.

And nobody knows how that repealed and replaced would look like.

The most likely thing to happen is to get rid of the +3,3V and -5V rail, reduce the max amperage of +5V or make it +12V Only.

 

Besides that it also is possible that the +5VSB rail will be replaced with a +12V Standby rail as well. Maybe other things could happen as well...

The spec could change, but would that make a PSU bad -- they still have all the protections and electrical consistencies? Wouldn't that just mean that something high end today may not be able to support something akin to Haswell's low power states (obviously that's just an example). 

 

And I'm referring to the high end PSUs today that have most/all the protections (my examples weren't meant to be specifically those units).

[Damascus]

Yo OP, what are your thoughts on the AX series?  AX860 in particular 

[Stefan Payne]

1 hour ago, djdwosk97 said:

The spec could change, but would that make a PSU bad -- they still have all the protections and electrical consistencies?

Depends on how the spec changes, what the differences are.

The example above, high +5V/3,3V current (up to 40A each) and low +12V current made even the best units of the time to garbage today because nobody needs that much current on those rails because 90% or more of the power of modern systems is delivered on the +12V rail.

 

 

But its also possible that there could be a  20 or 24V line added, wich would make any PSU you could buy today pretty much useless...

 

1 hour ago, djdwosk97 said:

Wouldn't that just mean that something high end today may not be able to support something akin to Haswell's low power states (obviously that's just an example). 

The possibilitys are endless.

 

Another highly likely situation is that the Powergood signal could be gotten rid of and a more modern, digital means of communication could be implemented... 

 

Again we are talking about a ~21 year old specification.

That was done without anybody ever thinking that anybody would implement a microcontroller in a consumer unit.

And today many high end units have a microcontroller, some just for the Semi Fanless Marketing shit and there are also some primary controll microcontrollers on the Market, like the Texas Instruments chip found in the Enermax Platimax DF 800W+ units.

1 hour ago, djdwosk97 said:

And I'm referring to the high end PSUs today that have most/all the protections (my examples weren't meant to be specifically those units).

Yeah, there are things that can make any modern unit useless/crap.

 

Depends on what the future will bring, if you can use your PSU with those upcoming things...

[Stefan Payne]

Just now, Damascus said:

Yo OP, what are your thoughts on the AX series?  AX860 in particular 

 

Wrong thread??

We ain't takling about Seasonic X/P Series here, though I'd say there are way better units by todays standards...

Or are you talking about the AXi series?
 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Blebekblebek said:

FSP 85+

No such model.

 

FSP has a number of PSUs with an "85+" on the box, but they're all different models.  

 

GHT(85), GHS(85), Everest 85, GUB(85), HHN(85).....

 

They are all different.  Including whether they use 105°C caps or 85°C caps.

[Damascus]

1 minute ago, Stefan Payne said:

 

Wrong thread??

We ain't takling about Seasonic X/P Series here, though I'd say there are way better units by todays standards...

Or are you talking about the AXi series?
 

Nah, just got one on the cheap a while back (150 CAD for the unit bnib + individually sleeved cables, how could I say no? )

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Nobody knows.

You missed my post.  DSG 1.4 has some pretty considerable changes.  While many of them are "recommended" and not "required", Coffee Lake is going to use those lower sleep states and that's not going to work with 99% of the PSUs on the market (because it requires DSP or a supervisor IC that hasn't begun to ship yet).

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

 

We ain't takling about Seasonic X/P Series here, though I'd say there are way better units by todays standards...
 

At least it's LLC with DC to DC.

 

But the question really was a thread jack.  Nobody said, "Why you shouldn't buy Seasonic PSUs".  Just "Why you shouldn't buy an S12/M12.

[Damascus]

Just now, jonnyGURU said:

Coffee Lake is going to use those lower sleep states and that's not going to work with 99% of the PSUs on the market (because it requires DSP or a supervisor IC that hasn't begun to ship yet).

 

Would that be similar to the Haswell fiasco a while back?

[Guest]

Just now, Damascus said:

Would that be similar to the Haswell fiasco a while back?

Yup.

 

[Damascus]

Just now, jonnyGURU said:

At least it's LLC with DC to DC.

 

But the question really was a thread jack.  Nobody said, "Why you shouldn't buy Seasonic PSUs".  Just "Why you shouldn't buy an S12/M12.

Actually I’m just curious because I own one and I rarely have an opportunity to ask such a high density and knowledgeable group about it.  Love your reviews btw

[awesomegamer919]

1 minute ago, jonnyGURU said:

Yup.

 

One would think they would set the standards and make sure the IC is shipping before they release a product that loses features due to said IC being missing  

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, awesomegamer919 said:

One would think they would set the standards and make sure the IC is shipping before they release a product that loses features due to said IC being missing  

You would think that, right?  Right?

 

Yeah.... F'in Intel.

 

[awesomegamer919]

14 minutes ago, Damascus said:

Actually I’m just curious because I own one and I rarely have an opportunity to ask such a high density and knowledgeable group about it.  Love your reviews btw

Jonny hasn't done reviews in nearly a decade, OklahomaWolf does all the reviews nowadays...

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, awesomegamer919 said:

OklahomaWolf does all the reviews nowadays.

Or Tazz:

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=497

 

5 minutes ago, awesomegamer919 said:

Jonny hasn't done reviews in nearly a decade...

Five years.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=296

[awesomegamer919]

2 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

Or Tazz:

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=497

True, Tazz does them so rarely (Compared to Jeremy) that I forget he does them altogether  

2 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

Five years.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=296

Damn, I though it was longer