Asus believes Coffee Lake should work on Z270

[Deli]

2 hours ago, dragoon20005 said:

so this is Intel decision to fu*k end users up into buying a new board

 

thanks Intel

 

 

I think Intel fxck up the retailers even more. All the Z270 boards will have to cut price big time.

[Dabombinable]

21 minutes ago, FRlTZ said:

-snip-

"Looks at LGA771 Xeon X5450 with its sticker to run on LGA775 motherboard"

[mr moose]

30 minutes ago, FRlTZ said:

and just to hurts it's own economy even more,

 

 

Not likely, they can't keep up with the CL demand.   At best/worst they have a few more 7700K's they can shift with their ubber gaming bundle extraordinaire.

 

I am constantly amazed by how many people get wet panties over AMD's incremental improvements over 3-4 years even though they never actually upgrade that often.  Damn you Intel I paid $330 for my i5 3550, now I can;t even buy a new CPU for the mobo.  

[strat guy]

So those extra power delivery pins on z370 will be capable of powering the rumored 8/10 core chips out next year but the z270 chipset as is can run the current coffee lake lineup ? Weren't Z270 boards non backward compatible with Skylake till they put out a BIOS update as well ?

 

Why like this, Intel ? Gib BIOS pls

[MyName13]

2 hours ago, dave_k said:

The all power delivery thing is BS.

Most good Z270 boards had overkill VRMs, they would have no problem with another 20-40A

There are other chipsets, not everyone buys z motherboards, instead of supporting some boards and not some others, it was obviously easier to simply release new chipsets.

[Trixanity]

2 hours ago, Ezilkannan said:

True that, but I doubt Zen refresh / Zen 2 would give any drastic performance gains against Zen. We may get to see some IPC improvement, but I'm very skeptical. I doubt AMD will catch up to Intel in IPC or clock speed event at Zen 3

Zen has a lot of low hanging fruit. Not saying you should expect miracles but there's a lot of room to grow. Intel can't say the same; they're working on a brand new architecture.

[Prox1ma]

Just now, Trixanity said:

Zen has a lot of low hanging fruit. Not saying you should expect miracles but there's a lot of room to grow. Intel can't say the same; they're working on a brand new architecture.

Thing is, will AMD make full use of that? I'm not too sure.

[Bananasplit_00]

now what did i freaking say... ofc they arent needed, the pins are already well capable of delivering the extra power

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

So without naming and shaming, certain people in the other threads who "knew for a fact" Intel couldn't support CL on older chipsets were talking out of their asses.

Don't know how many said couldn't but I was certainly saying wouldn't. Whether it was right or wrong that's been Intel's trend and they stuck too it, it's just that the time frames were much closer which is mostly where the outrage comes from and not actually Z270 not supporting CL.

 

We also have to consider the generation after CL and what chipset that would have to use, it's much nicer in the long run to cut support now and release Z370 and support a forward generation on that.

 

No matter which way we'd either have a bunch of people with KL CPUs crying fowl or a bunch of people with CL CPUs crying fowl, however it does make less sense putting a new CPU generation in to an older motherboard/chipset that you know will be depreciated in the next generation if you do care about being able to upgrade a CPU as has been much of the arguments about this topic.

[leadeater]

13 minutes ago, Ezilkannan said:

Thing is, will AMD make full use of that? I'm not too sure.

What makes you think they can't, it's not like they are polishing a turd like they were in the past. You can polish a turd but all you're left with is shit on your hands .

[Morgan MLGman]

So I was right all along It's "because Intel", not because of serious hardware limitations...

3 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

So without naming and shaming, certain people in the other threads who "knew for a fact" Intel couldn't support CL on older chipsets were talking out of their asses.

Remember my thread about it?

quote from the original post

Quote

It's probably either due to some architectural changes in Coffee Lake over Skylake & Kaby Lake or it's just Intel being assholes again and creating artificial limitations so people buy more CPUs

 

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

What makes you think they can't, it's not like they are polishing a turd like they were in the past. You can polish a turd but all you're left with is shit on your hands .

And a really shiny shit.

 

 

 

AMD will do alright, no reason to think they won't at the moment.  The only thing I'd be cautious of is banking on a Zen2+ dropping into today's AM4 and getting the full gamut of goodness from it.

[leadeater]

7 minutes ago, mr moose said:

The only thing I'd be cautious of is banking on a Zen2+ dropping into today's AM4 and getting the full gamut of goodness from it.

Word play could be the key to that, support doesn't always mean fully featured like in the past with AMD and their CPUs support across multiple sockets. I can see the arguments already .

 

I can see it now, Zen2+ with DDR4 and DDR5 support but will only support DDR4 in AM4/TR4.

[mr moose]

Just now, leadeater said:

Word play could be the key to that, support doesn't always mean fully featured like in the past with AMD and their CPUs support across multiple sockets. I can see the arguments now .

 

I can see it now, Zen2+ with DDR4 and DDR5 support but will only support DDR4 in AM4/TR4.

exactly, the future is a big unknown, anyone who walks in thinking stuff like memory/expansion lanes etc won't change is going to be in for a surprise.

 

8 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

So I was right all along It's "because Intel", not because of serious hardware limitations...

Remember my thread about it?

quote from the original post

 

You do realise the article doesn't exactly say that don't you?   It says they can run the lower core count CL CPU's on some 200 series boards, but there are still 20 power management pins that he admits will be needed later on.  There is a big difference between top of the line z series boards being able to cope with 6 cores now and all 200 series boards being able to do it for the rest of the CL line up.

[Prox1ma]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

What makes you think they can't, it's not like they are polishing a turd like they were in the past. You can polish a turd but all you're left with is shit on your hands .

I am very skeptical with respect to IPC and single thread performance gains. Ryzen is behind/at Haswell right now. I wouldn't be surprised if Zen 2 is still behind Skylake.

[Master Disaster]

Don't get paranoid or defensive guys, no need for that.

 

Yeah, at least one person (although I'm pretty sure there were a few) stated categorically that Intel had to redesign things to accommodate CL and it was impossible for them to offer backwards support but it won't be the first or last time someone on a tech forum posted something that wasn't true as a fact and we're all adults.

 

I shouldn't really have even brought it up, it was a flippant comment meant only to be semi serious. I actually intended to add a smiley to the end of it to show it wasn't entirely serious but it was 6am and I forgot.

 

At the end of the day it's Intel we should be mad at.

[Morgan MLGman]

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You do realise the article doesn't exactly say that don't you?   It says they can run the lower core count CL CPU's on some 200 series boards, but there are still 20 power management pins that he admits will be needed later on.  There is a big difference between top of the line z series boards being able to cope with 6 cores now and all 200 series boards being able to do it for the rest of the CL line up.

I'm sure they could support Coffee Lake on decent Z170/Z270 boards, they just chose not to.

 

Of course, one might argue that it's to avoid any confusion for potential buyers but then again, the socket is called the same which introduces A LOT confusion to customers that aren't as tech savvy as we are. For instance, I'm sure that even my Z170 Extreme4 could support the 8600K/8700K.

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

I shouldn't really have even brought it up, it was a flippant comment meant only to be semi serious. I actually intended to add a smiley to the end of it to show it wasn't entirely serious but it was 6am and I forgot.

Was more trying to own it, it's not like you can't go in to that thread and not see me in multiple pages discussing it . I don't actually remember that many people actually saying it couldn't support it until the topic/news item about the pin configuration came out, that generated a lot of "see look at this".

[mr moose]

Just now, Morgan MLGman said:

I'm sure they could support Coffee Lake on decent Z170/Z270 boards, they just chose not to.

 

Of course, one might argue that it's to avoid any confusion for potential buyers but then again, the socket is called the same which introduces A LOT confusion to customers that aren't as tech savvy as we are. For instance, I'm sure that even my Z170 Extreme4 could support the 8600K/8700K.

Well, I'm not going to go around making assumptions one way or the other until we know for sure.  

 

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Was more trying to own it, it's not like you can't go in to that thread and not see me in multiple pages discussing it . I don't actually remember that many people actually saying it couldn't support it until the topic/news item about the pin configuration came out, that generated a lot of "see look at this".

 

The news about pin config certainly gave credence to the belief there was nothing untoward in Intel motives.  And to be honest I still feel there is not enough information on the topic to make a motivational call just yet anyway.

[Trixanity]

1 hour ago, Ezilkannan said:

I am very skeptical with respect to IPC and single thread performance gains. Ryzen is behind/at Haswell right now. I wouldn't be surprised if Zen 2 is still behind Skylake.

Are you honestly claiming AMD can't do a 5% IPC improvement with Zen? Because that's what separates Haswell and Skylake in IPC. While it was a shit show, AMD managed double digit IPC increases with the Construction family of chips between generations with one exception I believe (which was 9% if I recall). Intel saw the biggest gains from Sandy to Haswell which was double digit as well. Since then we're looking at 2-5% between generations. Skylake being at 5% was an outlier, the rest are 2-3% and while I haven't seen the numbers, Kaby Lake and Coffee Lake might be within the margin of error.

 

The rest comes down to clock speed and that's where I would be skeptical too. However 7 nm should be interesting. We don't know how the node behaves with high frequencies. We know the current 14 nm is derived from a mobile low power node which means it doesn't do well with high frequencies. The upcoming 12 nm process for Zen+ is supposedly tweaked for higher frequencies but I doubt it it's a significant change from 14 nm, so I don't expect more than 200 MHz extra at the top.

[Princess Luna]

Yeah... what annoyed me was that mATX Z370 motherboards will only be available next year, since I wanted to buy a mATX i7 8700k system I decided to call it all off... if I have to wait until next year for it I might as well wait longer for the finally so long waited 10nm processors on the yet new z390 chipset

[Trixanity]

3 minutes ago, ONOTech said:

Clock for clock, jumping from Skylake to Haswell garners a 10% IPC difference, and most generational single-threaded improvements remained around 5% until Kaby Lake, with around 10% improvement going from Sandy -> Ivy.

 

The margin of error increase was recent. Everything else has seen improvements from what I remember.

Not according to Anandtech. They quote 5.7% from Haswell to Skylake with DDR3 RAM installed. To contrast they listed 2.4% for DDR3 and 2.7% for DDR4 - both from Broadwell to Skylake. Of course this is an average. The actual benchmarks vary greatly but average is the right way to do it because otherwise you skew it if you either look at benchmarks that show 0% gains or look at ones that show 20% (or for instance Dolphin showing 70% gains from Sandy to Skylake with DDR3).

 

Quote

Sandy Bridge to Ivy Bridge: Average ~5.8% Up
Ivy Bridge to Haswell: Average ~11.2% Up
Haswell to Broadwell: Average ~3.3% Up
Broadwell to Skylake (DDR3): Average ~2.4% Up
Broadwell to Skylake (DDR4): Average ~2.7% Up

Haswell to Skylake (DDR3): Average ~5.7% Up

Just for reference.

[TidaLWaveZ]

7 hours ago, NumLock21 said:

Asus confirms Coffee Lake does work on Z270

 

Did I miss something?

 

Wouldn't that mean that they literally have Coffee lake running on Z270?

[Nup]

could be big if intel lets it happen.

[Trixanity]

1 minute ago, TidaLWaveZ said:

 

Did I miss something?

 

Wouldn't that mean that they literally have Coffee lake running on Z270?

Probably more like they could make it work but Intel won't allow it and they need Intel to provide some prerequisite software updates (BIOS and Management Engine updates). What they're saying is that there is technically no reason for it to not work other than it needing a software update. The hardware is fine.