Windows S can run anything from the Windows store......Except Linux

[Castdeath97]

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

Genuine question,  why would you buy a laptop with S on it if you were doing computing or similar anyway? Wouldn't you be looking for a more suitable OS?

Reasonably of course, was just taking shots at Microsoft marketing this as a "Student" machine. 

[SpaceGhostC2C]

44 minutes ago, suicidalfranco said:

did you go to myaccount.google.com/activitycontrols ?

Exactly. Everything is disabled there, and there's another site in which Google lists what they have (can't remember the url), which in my case is absolutely empty.

The problem is, they do have a lot on me despite those optimistic reports.

[Drak3]

33 minutes ago, suicidalfranco said:

you can see what they collect and manage it, call me when MS will even give a glimpse of what they're getting out of you

No, you can't really manage it. Google's "privacy settings" do next to nothing, and it's not having any meaningful effect on data collection, just ad personalization.

Also, I believe @GoodBytes (or another one of the more active admins) created a thread about Windows privacy settings getting a somewhat more detailed description in the settings menu, as well as more granular control over those settings. In initial setup, a decent description of what they collect has always been there, but all that requires one actually reading it.

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, Drak3 said:

No, you can't really manage it. Google's "privacy settings" do next to nothing, and it's not having any meaningful effect on data collection, just ad personalization.

Also, I believe @GoodBytes (or another one of the more active admins) created a thread about Windows privacy settings getting a somewhat more detailed description in the settings menu, as well as more granular control over those settings. In initial setup, a decent description of what they collect has always been there, but all that requires one actually reading it.

Yeah I don't think Google gives you any more control than Microsoft does. They are both horrible in that regard.

 

As for the thread about settings in Windows 10, the thread is here.

The update changed the descriptions of privacy settings in Windows, but that was just for the stuff you can turn off. It did not change any control over it though, nor did it contain any info about telemetry or the other data collection Microsoft does in Windows 10. If you look a bit deeper into the thread you will find a post with links to articles which are decently detailed (but still contains a ton of vague and unclear things).

That document is almost 100 pages long, with something like 30,000 words. That's just for the absolute minimum amount of info Microsoft collects through telemetry (as in, it does not include any details about the other data collection in Windows 10, just the telemetry things).

[pipnina]

It is more important for the consumer that Windows in general dies. Whether it's Linux, FreeBSD or something else; an open platform is the ONLY platform that will respect a user's rights.

[Misanthrope]

35 minutes ago, pipnina said:

It is more important for the consumer that Windows in general dies. Whether it's Linux, FreeBSD or something else; an open platform is the ONLY platform that will respect a user's rights.

Yeah that's not happening. Not for another 20 years at the very least.

[Doobeedoo]

Seriously wouldn't want to use limited OS version for school what so ever. Makes no sense at all.

[vorticalbox]

5 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

you can see what they collect and manage it, call me when MS will even give a glimpse of what they're getting out of you

like

 

https://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2017/04/windows-10-creators-update-privacy-telemetry/

 

 

[suicidalfranco]

21 minutes ago, vorticalbox said:

like

 

https://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2017/04/windows-10-creators-update-privacy-telemetry/

 

 

how is changing the description of some toggles the same as showing what they've collected 

[leadeater]

8 hours ago, Windspeed36 said:

I think a lot of people are failing to see what the real intention with Windows 10 S is. 

 

At the moment, Microsoft offer Azure alongside Office 365 to serve as IaaS (infrastructure as a service). Through this, most business & enterprise environments are catered to: Office 365 oversees user management through Azure Active Directory, mail through Exchange Online, file through SharePoint Online & OneDrive for Business and so on. Specialist requirements can be met through Azure deployments which include Linux OS support - they've even gone as far as to offer an MCSA for Linux on Azure. (An MCSA is the equivalent of a Cisco CCNP). Microsoft's IaaS platform also caters to communication through Skype for Business (formerly Lync), covering both your conventional video/audio calls & broadcasts (think Cisco WebEx) but also the role as a virtual PBX - Skype for Business is essentially a complete VoIP system for businesses. They also offer complete device management through InTune.

 

However, where they are let down at the moment is the integration of applications on devices. Through InTune, it's very difficult to deploy applications that aren't native to the Windows Store and thus can only really be deployed by an on premise domain controller via group policy. If you've got 99% of your environment in the cloud, you don't really want to keep a DC on prem purely to publish apps to devices. Sure, if it's a brand new device you could use SCCM & image the device but if it's already deployed, it's a pain.

 

By creating Windows 10 S and launching it with the Surface brand backing, Microsoft are no doubt aiming to have a large number of devices in the marketplace using Windows 10 S - and if Windows 10 S can only use devices form the app store, developers will develop for that platform. Think of it like the boom of iOS & the app store a few years back - if you didn't have an app, for the most part, you didn't matter and your product wouldn't succeed with the masses. From where I see it and to those I've spoken to who hold similar views, Microsoft are hoping to create this pool of users to force developers onboard UWP. 

 

Back to the concept of IaaS & the Microsoft world, if UWP now has a huge number of applications that you can deploy, there is no need for a business to have on-premise equipment. Their core infrastructure needs (user management, email, file & communication) are all handled by Microsoft's subscription services and device management is all done via InTune - you can have a staff member take a brand new device out of the box, select that it belongs to a company and that you want to sign into the domain with your Azure Active Directory credentials. From there Azure AD takes over, installing InTune onto the device which then loads the profile and pulls the appropriate apps out of the UWP store. - This entire process happens without the need for the IT department to get their hands on the device. Furthermore, if a businesses IT needs are all met through this service, there is no need for on-premise equipment, instead forcing the business into a per seat per month billing arrangement with Microsoft - one that is very difficult to migrate out of.

 

This is very much evident through the huge push from Microsoft at their technical events, constantly putting the emphasis on the UWP integration with InTune & Azure to the point where there are several certifications for this process now offered by MS.

 

@leadeater - Thoughts?

Not sure if I can be bothered talking about Windows 10, on this forum it's like pissing in to the wind .

 

If anyone is trying to think how to use Windows 10 S as a personal device for their own entertainment etc then it isn't for you and you've missed the point of it.

 

What makes Windows so go for networks is the management framework which nothing else comes close to, that is widely accepted in the IT industry. Mac used to be close with Open Directory until they killed that off for Profile Manager which is broken to it's core and offers about 10%-20% of what Group Policy can, when/if it works.

 

All you need is a device that can be joined to Active Directory and managed like normal and use the typical Software as a Service platforms as mentioned above, that covers almost everything you need for work and school. For the more advanced applications you can use Remote Applications either from on-perm RDS farm or from Azure (or anywhere) and run any application that looks and feels like it is locally on the device but is actually running on a remote server.

 

Previous job we used to have to try and manage Chromebooks in schools and that is possibly the worst thing I've ever had to do. Chromebooks are not actually designed for that and if the device needs to be shared forget it just burn the device and get something different.

[Bananasplit_00]

9 hours ago, Windspeed36 said:

I think a lot of people are failing to see what the real intention with Windows 10 S is. 

 

At the moment, Microsoft offer Azure alongside Office 365 to serve as IaaS (infrastructure as a service). Through this, most business & enterprise environments are catered to: Office 365 oversees user management through Azure Active Directory, mail through Exchange Online, file through SharePoint Online & OneDrive for Business and so on. Specialist requirements can be met through Azure deployments which include Linux OS support - they've even gone as far as to offer an MCSA for Linux on Azure. (An MCSA is the equivalent of a Cisco CCNP). Microsoft's IaaS platform also caters to communication through Skype for Business (formerly Lync), covering both your conventional video/audio calls & broadcasts (think Cisco WebEx) but also the role as a virtual PBX - Skype for Business is essentially a complete VoIP system for businesses. They also offer complete device management through InTune.

 

However, where they are let down at the moment is the integration of applications on devices. Through InTune, it's very difficult to deploy applications that aren't native to the Windows Store and thus can only really be deployed by an on premise domain controller via group policy. If you've got 99% of your environment in the cloud, you don't really want to keep a DC on prem purely to publish apps to devices. Sure, if it's a brand new device you could use SCCM & image the device but if it's already deployed, it's a pain.

 

By creating Windows 10 S and launching it with the Surface brand backing, Microsoft are no doubt aiming to have a large number of devices in the marketplace using Windows 10 S - and if Windows 10 S can only use devices form the app store, developers will develop for that platform. Think of it like the boom of iOS & the app store a few years back - if you didn't have an app, for the most part, you didn't matter and your product wouldn't succeed with the masses. From where I see it and to those I've spoken to who hold similar views, Microsoft are hoping to create this pool of users to force developers onboard UWP. 

 

Back to the concept of IaaS & the Microsoft world, if UWP now has a huge number of applications that you can deploy, there is no need for a business to have on-premise equipment. Their core infrastructure needs (user management, email, file & communication) are all handled by Microsoft's subscription services and device management is all done via InTune - you can have a staff member take a brand new device out of the box, select that it belongs to a company and that you want to sign into the domain with your Azure Active Directory credentials. From there Azure AD takes over, installing InTune onto the device which then loads the profile and pulls the appropriate apps out of the UWP store. - This entire process happens without the need for the IT department to get their hands on the device. Furthermore, if a businesses IT needs are all met through this service, there is no need for on-premise equipment, instead forcing the business into a per seat per month billing arrangement with Microsoft - one that is very difficult to migrate out of.

 

This is very much evident through the huge push from Microsoft at their technical events, constantly putting the emphasis on the UWP integration with InTune & Azure to the point where there are several certifications for this process now offered by MS.

 

@leadeater - Thoughts?

good point that i havent seen before, this isnt an OS that matters to me personaly seeing as i will never have to use it myself but i think quite a few students are going to get screwed a bit here. i have had to install a lot of programs not on the windows store to do some of the work i have done in school. a big reason to use windows in the fist place is the massive compatability and program library

[PlayStation 2]

I think Microsoft's forgetting that Windows 10 Education exists.

[Bananasplit_00]

3 hours ago, pipnina said:

It is more important for the consumer that Windows in general dies. Whether it's Linux, FreeBSD or something else; an open platform is the ONLY platform that will respect a user's rights.

i would be fine with just direct X dying tbh, that way we could game on anything other then Windows. the more techy of a person i have gotten the more compelling Linux is to me in almost every regard but the fact that i cant play any of my favorite games on it makes it a none option for me sadly.

 

18 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Not sure if I can be bothered talking about Windows 10, on this forum it's like pissing in to the wind .

 

If anyone is trying to think how to use Windows 10 S as a personal device for their own entertainment etc then it isn't for you and you've missed the point of it.

 

What makes Windows so go for networks is the management framework which nothing else comes close to, that is widely accepted in the IT industry. Mac used to be close with Open Directory until they killed that off for Profile Manager which is broken to it's core and offers about 10%-20% of what Group Policy can, when/if it works.

 

All you need is a device that can be joined to Active Directory and managed like normal and use the typical Software as a Service platforms as mentioned above, that covers almost everything you need for work and school. For the more advanced applications you can use Remote Applications either from on-perm RDS farm or from Azure (or anywhere) and run any application that looks and feels like it is locally on the device but is actually running on a remote server.

 

Previous job we used to have to try and manage Chromebooks in schools and that is possibly the worst thing I've ever had to do. Chromebooks are not actually designed for that and if the device needs to be shared forget it just burn the device and get something different.

thats another thing going for Windows deinatly. its very imporant to be able to manage your computers in a buisness but im sure there are ways that arent that painfull if you would be running a Linux only framework but it would probably not go AS smoothly with the setup.

[LAwLz]

35 minutes ago, leadeater said:

If anyone is trying to think how to use Windows 10 S as a personal device for their own entertainment etc then it isn't for you and you've missed the point of it.

Personally I don't think Windows 10S is meant for schools/work places either (although that's what Microsoft will claim is the target audience).

I think Windows 10S is a tool Microsoft designed to boost their app store. Windows RT failed so now they are trying it again. If everyone was already using the Windows app store then I very much doubt Microsoft would have created Windows 10S. It's just a way for them to force people into using it. I mean, the regular version of Windows got the ability to lock it down to store-only programs as well (not sure if that feature is available yet, but it's coming). So Windows 10S does not seem to offer anything whatsoever, not even for schools and workplaces, over regular Windows 10.

[leadeater]

24 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Personally I don't think Windows 10S is meant for schools/work places either (although that's what Microsoft will claim is the target audience).

I think Windows 10S is a tool Microsoft designed to boost their app store. Windows RT failed so now they are trying it again. If everyone was already using the Windows app store then I very much doubt Microsoft would have created Windows 10S. It's just a way for them to force people into using it. I mean, the regular version of Windows got the ability to lock it down to store-only programs as well (not sure if that feature is available yet, but it's coming). So Windows 10S does not seem to offer anything whatsoever, not even for schools and workplaces, over regular Windows 10.

True but if Microsoft is charging less for it to OEM then the cost of the device goes down allowing it to compete a bit closer to Chromebooks, it totally is a marketing thing only so looking at it from a technical point means it makes no sense at all.

 

Mind you we could argue why not just charge less for Windows overall too.

 

Edit:

Also lets not kid ourselves, sometimes you have to force people in to an ecosystem to make them use it and allow it to thrive e.g. iOS & iPad.

[Misanthrope]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

Not sure if I can be bothered talking about Windows 10, on this forum it's like pissing in to the wind .

 

If anyone is trying to think how to use Windows 10 S as a personal device for their own entertainment etc then it isn't for you and you've missed the point of it.

 

What makes Windows so go for networks is the management framework which nothing else comes close to, that is widely accepted in the IT industry. Mac used to be close with Open Directory until they killed that off for Profile Manager which is broken to it's core and offers about 10%-20% of what Group Policy can, when/if it works.

 

All you need is a device that can be joined to Active Directory and managed like normal and use the typical Software as a Service platforms as mentioned above, that covers almost everything you need for work and school. For the more advanced applications you can use Remote Applications either from on-perm RDS farm or from Azure (or anywhere) and run any application that looks and feels like it is locally on the device but is actually running on a remote server.

 

Previous job we used to have to try and manage Chromebooks in schools and that is possibly the worst thing I've ever had to do. Chromebooks are not actually designed for that and if the device needs to be shared forget it just burn the device and get something different.

So it's easier to do? I get that Chromebooks are "a nightmare" but Enterprise oriented versions of windows do most of what's been described by Windows S already. It just takes more work on the part of the IT department

 

Is your point that nobody offers to be a curator for the OS to ensure some level of security then? That's the appeal?

[SpaceGhostC2C]

4 hours ago, pipnina said:

It is more important for the consumer that Windows in general dies. Whether it's Linux, FreeBSD or something else; an open platform is the ONLY platform that will respect a user's rights.

It doesn't need to die, it's enough for the open alternative to be good enough for you. It's not like we need to collectively elect the nation's OS, we can all have it our way - as long as good enough alternatives exist. Basically, we need more "platform irrelevance", and open source OSs to be part of the relevant mix.

Then even people who overall are better off with Windows could reap some benefits from the competitive pressure...

 

With that said, it's not going to happen on its own. There is two-way causality between not switching until it's good enough, and not being good enough until more people switch. For example, some games are exclusive to a given console, but most PC gamers' reaction is "well, tough luck, I'm just not playing it then". It may take more people saying "well, you're game is not on Linux, so I won't play it" or "it's DX12, so irrelevant to me, give me a Vulkan version" to shift the developers' incentives. The more we take the "I'll switch the day game developers publish everything for Linux" approach, the less likely that day is to come.

[dditty]

Here's to hoping it's something that will be fixed in the not-so distant future. 

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

So it's easier to do? I get that Chromebooks are "a nightmare" but Enterprise oriented versions of windows do most of what's been described by Windows S already. It just takes more work on the part of the IT department

 

Is your point that nobody offers to be a curator for the OS to ensure some level of security then? That's the appeal?

Nah the only appeal is in the potential cheapness of devices from HP etc if Microsoft is charging a lot less for it. It doesn't create any more work for IT departments as it's just another Windows OS, no changes required (ish).

 

You can't join Windows 10 S to local Active Directory but you can to Azure AD, another lock in Azure push feature much like Windows Store Apps only.

 

The only security this adds is by not allowing standard applications from running, which is actually rather nice as it stops students using portable software like SSH proxy tunnels etc.

[mr moose]

I don't really follow on with what S is, I don't really care as I'm not about to buy one, but if the device is cheaper (and you're a company or school that buys them in their 100's/1000's) and your IT staff have less work to do to keep everything up to scratch and on top of that it is as secure as enterprise with all the goodies. Then solely from a financial perspective, if every program you need is in the windows store and you don't need linux then it's a bit of a no brainer. 

 

I don't see what he problem is. 

 

 

[LAwLz]

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

Also lets not kid ourselves, sometimes you have to force people in to an ecosystem to make them use it and allow it to thrive e.g. iOS & iPad.

Nobody was forced onto iOS. People chose it because it was genuinely good compared to what we had. This is the reverse version. Microsoft is taking something good (although that's up for debate) and then artificially making it worse for no reason.

 

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

You can't join Windows 10 S to local Active Directory but you can to Azure AD, another lock in Azure push feature much like Windows Store Apps only.

Wait... What? Why the hell not? Are the people working at Microsoft literally mentally disabled?

I get that Microsoft want to move away from on-premise AD, but seriously, that's idiotic. So S devices will not be easier to manage for a huge amount of IT departments after all. Because a lot of them relies on local ADs, not Azure ADs.

[vorticalbox]

8 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

how is changing the description of some toggles the same as showing what they've collected 

at the bottom there is a link too a control panel that let's you see what has been collected

 

https://account.microsoft.com/privacy/

 

they posted a breakdown of what they collect

 

https://technet.microsoft.com/itpro/windows/configure/basic-level-windows-diagnostic-events-and-fields

 

and 

 

https://technet.microsoft.com/itpro/windows/configure/windows-diagnostic-data

 

 

 

 

[Master Disaster]

I've called this scenario out multiple times in the past, Microsoft (Satya Nadella) are trying to move away from Windows as software towards Windows as a service and the start of that means gaining control over applications.

 

Windows 8s Metro was an attempt to force everybody away from the desktop paradigm and should have been the start of this shift but users rebelled and I think MS realised this change is going to have to be more gradual.

 

They'll sneak in smaller changes (they have already started doing it right now) over multiple updates till users don't notice the traditional desktop has disappeared, Win32 Apps no longer work and everything you want to do has to go through some kind of MS controlled gatekeeper. Want apps? MS Store only. Want Office? Office 365 it is.

 

I see FluentUI as the next step, basically they've thought "OK users didn't accept us removing the desktop so what we will do is redesign the desktop to suit our vision instead and present it as a shiny new UI upgrade".

 

After Fluent I think they'll slowly start to remove Win32 app support, the first step will be hiding Win32 apps from the Start menu (the option is already there as a toggle) and at the same time they'll start to entice the big devs to create UWP versions of their apps instead (maybe by dropping the fee for the big devs like Valve, Adobe etc) and then one day, boom - " No need for Win32 anymore, everything you need is available in UWP format now".

 

At this point they can basically give Windows away for free and make their profit from store transactions & selling services like Office365 & Onedrive.

 

Basically Satya Nadellas grand vision is to become Apple 2.0.

 

Just my opinion.

[leadeater]

39 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Nobody was forced onto iOS. People chose it because it was genuinely good compared to what we had. This is the reverse version. Microsoft is taking something good (although that's up for debate) and then artificially making it worse for no reason.

Nobody chose iOS, that's all that was on offer. Sure iPad was the best tablet on the market but at the time if you could have run Mac OS on an iPad everyone would of, iOS is clearly a better fit for that type of device but we know that now not back then. Having only one good option is still being forced in to that ecosystem, good or not still the same thing.

 

Now it's not a single choice issue which is why Windows RT died, massive failure right there. New and extremely limited ecosystem versus a well understood and refined one over a decade, yea I know which one I'd bet money on.

 

Edit:

Also Android back then on tablets was god awful so also not a real choice.

 

39 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Wait... What? Why the hell not? Are the people working at Microsoft literally mentally disabled?

I get that Microsoft want to move away from on-premise AD, but seriously, that's idiotic. So S devices will not be easier to manage for a huge amount of IT departments after all. Because a lot of them relies on local ADs, not Azure ADs.

Yep, add that to the list of bullshit moves Microsoft is doing to make you use things you don't actually want to.

 

Every school has Azure AD though just so you're aware, or well every school using Office 365 which is rather common. When you setup Office 365 you have to sync your local AD to Azure AD if you have a local AD (of course you do).

[SCHISCHKA]

I have an inside source in Microsoft that tells me S stands for Stupid