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Ryzen has another instruction implementation problem, VME is broken

source: http://www.os2museum.com/wp/vme-broken-on-amd-ryzen/

 

what is VME?

also known as Virtual-8086 Mode Enhancements, it allows execution of real mode apps that cannot (were not designed) run in protected mode OS

it's also used in hardware virtualization to emulate multiple x86 CPUs

 

the Ryzen implementation

Quote

Ryzen has buggy VME implementation; specifically, the INT instruction is known to misbehave in V86 mode with VME enabled when the given vector is redirected (i.e. it should use standard real-mode IVT and execute in V86 mode without faulting). The INT instruction simply doesn’t go where it’s supposed to go which leads to more or less immediate crashes or hangs

 

what does it mean for the end-user?

if the end user tries to run XP / WS2003 and earlier OSes, the system will either crash or hang - this affects both direct installs or through a VM

 

not many end users need to run older OSes, but this particular issue can be problematic in a enterprise environments where they might need to run old OSes to keep their old equipment functional - if it ain't broke, don't fix it

 

so far, reports have indicated Windows XP, Windows Server 2003, Windows NT, FreeDOS to have issues while trying to run on Ryzen CPUs

Quote

Windows XP and Server 2003 (that is NT 5.1 and 5.2) is significantly more affected because it was the first Windows OS that shipped with a generic display driver using VBE (VESA BIOS Extensions), and the only Windows family which executed the BIOS code inside NTVDM (with VME on, if available). Starting with Vista, presumably due to increased focus on 64-bit OSes where V86 mode is entirely unavailable, the video BIOS is executed indirectly, likely using pure software emulation.

 

The upshot is that the problem is visible in Windows versions at least from NT 4.0 and up, but XP and Server 2003 may entirely fail to boot, either hanging or crashing just before bringing up the desktop.

 

the workaround, at least if you run a VM environment - mask out the VME CPUID bit (bit 1 in register EDX of leaf 1)

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Does this really matter though? Microsoft doesn't support older OSes on Ryzen anyways.

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>RyZen

>running XP

 

Who would even. They're getting drowned in the bathtub. 

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2 minutes ago, DocSwag said:

Does this really matter though? Microsoft doesn't support older OSes on Ryzen anyways.

you can run XP in a VM and there a valid reasons why people / businesses would do that - pointed out in the OP

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So can we agree now that AMD launched a beta product?

Or do you guys still need more proof?

 

P.S. I know everyone is going to start the hate because AMD delivered a good performer. Yeah yeah yeah, that's not the issue. So start with that.

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12 minutes ago, DildorTheDecent said:

>RyZen

>running XP

 

Who would even. They're getting drowned in the bathtub. 

VMs are a thing though. Imagine the chaos if AMD were selling server CPUs to farms running VM clusters?

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1 minute ago, Master Disaster said:

VMs are a thing though. Imagine the chaos if AMD were selling server CPUs to farms running VM clusters?

Hilarious. 

 

Doesn't matter what they're doing. Fancy new processor on old XP means you're having a date with the bathtub. Server guys it's a different story. 

 

Some nerd should pass though and scream "Linux!" though. Any minute...

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1 minute ago, DildorTheDecent said:

Hilarious. 

 

Doesn't matter what they're doing. Fancy new processor on old XP means you're having a date with the bathtub. Server guys it's a different story. 

 

Some nerd should pass though and scream "Linux!" though. Any minute...

LINUX!

 

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Who would even run a Ryzen CPU on such an old OS?

 

10 minutes ago, Darth Revan said:

So can we agree now that AMD launched a beta product?

Or do you guys still need more proof?

 

P.S. I know everyone is going to start the hate because AMD delivered a good performer. Yeah yeah yeah, that's not the issue. So start with that.

 

Like Haswell was a beta product? 

Erratas exists on all CPU's. Why do you think Intel's pro CPU's are an architecture generation behind the mainstream?

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

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5 minutes ago, DildorTheDecent said:

Some nerd should pass though and scream "Linux!" though. Any minute...

if you run Linux and want to run Windows in a VM you're still affected

so, it doesn't matter

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33 minutes ago, zMeul said:

what does it mean for the end-user?

if the end user tries to run XP / WS2003 and earlier OSes, the system will either crash or hang - this affects both direct installs or through a VM

That's not a problem, that's a security feature

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Just now, Ryan_Vickers said:

That's not a problem, that's a security feature

you can still run offline ;)

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1 hour ago, Darth Revan said:

So can we agree now that AMD launched a beta product?

Or do you guys still need more proof?

Pentium and FDIV.  Was that a beta product?

 

Bugs exist in everything, the key concern is how much of an issue the bug causes and whether it can be fixed.  The former isn't going to affect very many people, because not many are running XP VM's on their machine.  Yeah, some do.  I'm not arguing that.  I am arguing that the number is minuscule enough that it's not worth freaking out over.

 

As for the fix, there's already a workaround for the bug, and we'll just have to wait and see what AMD does in regards to a proper fix, if anything.

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On 5/13/2017 at 0:37 PM, DildorTheDecent said:

Hilarious. 

 

Doesn't matter what they're doing. Fancy new processor on old XP means you're having a date with the bathtub. Server guys it's a different story. 

 

Some nerd should pass though and scream "Linux!" though. Any minute...

LINUX /s

 

It's actually quite a big deal .

Obviously there's the issues with older OS's , but any old/poorly written code that makes use of this instruction could have issues . 

And that may not always be obvious . OG code could have been written during the DOS era and modified into something completely different over the years; if it still relies on that legacy instruction anywhere in the code ,  it breaks .

 

On 5/13/2017 at 0:29 PM, Darth Revan said:

So can we agree now that AMD launched a beta product?

Or do you guys still need more proof?

 

P.S. I know everyone is going to start the hate because AMD delivered a good performer. Yeah yeah yeah, that's not the issue. So start with that.

Almost every new cpu architecture made by intel or AMD has had stuff like this happen . 

Intel had issues with broadwell/haswell (TSX ) and skylake  (AVX) , and AMD had the aforementioned ryzen bugs ( FMA3 , VME ) and had the TLB bug with the OG phenom .

Like always , it'll be patched with a bios /microcode update .

 

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1 hour ago, Darth Revan said:

So can we agree now that AMD launched a beta product?

Or do you guys still need more proof?

 

P.S. I know everyone is going to start the hate because AMD delivered a good performer. Yeah yeah yeah, that's not the issue. So start with that.

X99? To be fair, AMD is no worse than intel :P 

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What? As I said, there seriously is nothing here :) 

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Well they don't support older OSs so be it VM or not heh. But fix will come no.

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Doesn't Ryzen also have problem with running Hyper-V in general?

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5 hours ago, Darth Revan said:

So can we agree now that AMD launched a beta product?

Or do you guys still need more proof?

 

P.S. I know everyone is going to start the hate because AMD delivered a good performer. Yeah yeah yeah, that's not the issue. So start with that.

Man we should look at how well Intel released X99 and how stable....oh wait! It wasn't stable. That too was a buggy piece of shit originally. 

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24 minutes ago, TechGod said:

Man we should look at how well Intel released X99 and how stable....oh wait! It wasn't stable. That too was a buggy piece of shit originally. 

Shhhh that doesn't count man neither does the other countless problems intel's had over the years with their new architectures.

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soo that's why my microsoft bob kept crashing...who knew.

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16 hours ago, DildorTheDecent said:

Some nerd should pass though and scream "Linux!" though. Any minute...

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20 hours ago, Coaxialgamer said:

Almost every new cpu architecture made by intel or AMD has had stuff like this happen . 

Intel had issues with broadwell/haswell (TSX ) and skylake  (AVX) , and AMD had the aforementioned ryzen bugs ( FMA3 , VME ) and had the TLB bug with the OG phenom .

Like always , it'll be patched with a bios /microcode update .

 

And I think everybody wants to forget the mess that was the LGA 1155 P67 launch with south-bridges killing SATA ports that led to a massive recall.

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