Microsoft shares what it collectes in Windows 10 Telemetry data

[NinJake]

Just now, jagdtigger said:

Then you have one, win10 has a built in keylogger plus it isn't hard to get the websites address that you are viewing at the time...

Lol, if I used the internet for my banking.... Sadly I'm old school and prefer face to face communication with my finances.

[Drak3]

2 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

win10 has a built in keylogger

No, it doesn't.

 

But if we're to go by your claim, so does Android, iOS, OSX, and every consumer ready version of Linux.

[jagdtigger]

Just now, Drak3 said:

No, it doesn't.

 

But if we're to go by your claim, so does Android, iOS, OSX, and every consumer ready version of Linux.

Yes it does:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2974057/windows/how-to-turn-off-windows-10s-keylogger-yes-it-still-has-one.html

 

BTW Linux distros wont have it and anyone with a little brain in their heads wont use their phones anything important like banking .

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

Yes it does:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2974057/windows/how-to-turn-off-windows-10s-keylogger-yes-it-still-has-one.html

 

BTW Linux distros wont have it and anyone with a little brain in their heads wont use their phones anything important like banking .

A key logger collects ALL keystrokes, collects all keystrokes after a keyword(s) has been entered, or starts collecting with context (going to certain sites or programs).

 

The PCworld article was written by a fucking idiot. Windows 10 doesn't do that, Windows 10 does collect some (little) typing info from Cortana and Edge URL/search bar entries, but not from actual websites or programs. Windows 10 does collect some inking information to better handwriting recognition, but what is collected is submitted as incomprehensible jargon that cannot actually be used to steal valuable data.

And every consumer OS does this, it's how they improve their product.

[LAwLz]

18 minutes ago, NinJake said:

But then again, in the age of the internet and our current technology, almost any method other than physically walking into the bank will "collect data".

And I think that is scary, especially since this was not at all the case just ~10 years ago. The move from "we value user choice and privacy" to "fuck the users, we need all the data!" has happened in just a few years, and I don't think things horrible development will slow down as long as users are compliant.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Actually, we DO know that some information they collect is used to advertise/recommend through Edge, Windows Store, and sometimes the action center. It's still not quite as intrusive as Google or Facebook's advertising platform, and that can be disabled completely.

1) Please stop with all the whataboutery. I am so sick and tired of hearing this defense in Microsoft threads.

2) [Citation Needed] on it being as intrusive as Google or Facebook.

3) Saying that Google and Facebook are worse is like saying HIV is better than AIDS. I don't want either. I want to go back to the time when everyone was more or less healthy. Someone might have had a cold, but that was it. Not full-blown AIDS running rampant.

4) [Citation Needed] on it actually being possible to disable completely. Remember, there are a lot of settings in Windows 10 that actually don't do anything. You can turn them on or off all you want, it doesn't make a difference.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

No, it doesn't.

 

But if we're to go by your claim, so does Android, iOS, OSX, and every consumer ready version of Linux.

Well it depends on your definition of keylogger.

Windows 10 does include a setting which is turned on by default which logs what you write.

 

Got any evidence to support your claim that OS X and "every consumer ready version of Linux" includes similar data collection? I can't find anything similar in Debian nor Ubuntu.

 

 

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

A key logger collects ALL keystrokes, collects all keystrokes after a keyword(s) has been entered, or starts collecting with context (going to certain sites or programs).

According to whom? You're not in charge of making the definition.

It seems to me like you came up with that specific description just so that it would not include what Microsoft does in it.

 

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

The PCworld article was written by a fucking idiot. Windows 10 doesn't do that, Windows 10 does collect some (little) typing info from Cortana and Edge URL/search bar entries, but not from actual websites or programs. Windows 10 does collect some inking information to better handwriting recognition, but what is collected is submitted as incomprehensible jargon that cannot actually be used to steal valuable data.

But Windows 10 DOES do that. It collects written information from inside programs too.

How do you know that the inking information collected is just "incomprehensible jargon"? Is that just an assumption you are making or do you have evidence to back it up?

 

4 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

And every consumer OS does this, it's how they improve their product.

More whataboutery...

[GoodBytes]

20 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Then you have one, win10 has a built in keylogger plus it isn't hard to get the websites address that you are viewing at the time...

Do you have proof of this?

Microsoft has a whole website saying what they collect.

https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/privacyStatement

[NinJake]

3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

And I think that is scary, especially since this was not at all the case just ~10 years ago. The move from "we value user choice and privacy" to "fuck the users, we need all the data!" has happened in just a few years, and I don't think things horrible development will slow down as long as users are compliant.

It is kind of scary indeed. I'm pretty sure the bigger picture here is $money$. But that is how the world goes round, and I'm just thankful for being part of the 40% (?) of the worlds population with internet service. I'd rather complain about fossil fuels than telemetry data.

[LAwLz]

10 minutes ago, NinJake said:

It is kind of scary indeed. I'm pretty sure the bigger picture here is $money$. But that is how the world goes round, and I'm just thankful for being part of the 40% (?) of the worlds population with internet service. I'd rather complain about fossil fuels than telemetry data.

I think it has way bigger implications than just money.

Being in control of information gives you far bigger powers than that. Just some examples I can think of.

1) You can push different political views by using, or just simply have very detailed analysis of what individuals think.

2) The use of big data to predict criminals is already on its way. What this means is that you your personal data that was collected, possibly without your knowledge, could be used to frame you for a crime you might not have committed, because "a computer said you likely did it".

3) The knowledge of being spied on will unconsciously make you act differently. A study I have talked about before (I'll try to find the post) showed that people who knew they were being monitored did not express opinions they interpreted as being minority opinions. This is flat out a danger to the democracy because it relies on people actually being able to express their opinions.

 

 

Edit: As for "rather complaining about fossil fuels", why not complain about both?
It is possible to work on improving both of these things at once.

[NinJake]

Once again, I agree mostly with what you state.

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

2) The use of big data to predict criminals is already on its way. What this means is that you your personal data that was collected, possibly without your knowledge, could be used to frame you for a crime you might not have committed, because "a computer said you likely did it".

Even before computers, people have been getting wrongly accused of crimes. I think if anything, these days the extra data collected can help prove you innocent, not the other way around. And since we are on the topic of Windows 10 telemetry, and not other companies, I think Microsoft has a good sense of ethics and would not cross the line to start "policing" and working WITH the government unless a warrant has been provided.

 

I won't even talk about your third point, aside from "look where the US democracy ended up today".... And I do not talk any further about politics.

[LAwLz]

Just now, NinJake said:

these days the extra data collected can help prove you innocent, not the other way around.

Sadly, that is not how it works. If you get convinced for a crime, they will use all information they got access to to make it appear that you are guilty.

The Miranda warning does not include "Anything said can and will be used against you in a court of law" just for fun. It actually means it.

That is the reason why the US has the fifth amendment.

Here is a good speech about it:

 

 

 

1 minute ago, NinJake said:

I think Microsoft has a good sense of ethics and would not cross the line to start "policing" and working WITH the government unless a warrant has been provided.

Microsoft has a horrible sense of ethics. They have literally been in court several times and found guilty for actively harming consumers and competitors.

There are several court documents which contains internal documents from Microsoft outlining how to harm competitors for their personal gains. For example their tactic "embrace, extend and extinguish" which was/is Microsoft strategy to kill open standards and lock users into using propitiatory Microsoft products.

 

Also, Microsoft has been found to directly or indirectly help the government agencies such as the NSA spy on people. For example the NSA, with the help from Microsoft, had a backdoor in Outlook (the website/mail server, not the application) before it even launched. The NSA was ready to read emails from day one.

[NinJake]

Well then, you can clearly see how educated I am on this topic. Either way, I'll always trust open source software more than anything else. And I don't disagree with any of your points, I just don't care enough about if W10 is gathering my data. It sucks that they do, but unless everyone that is already using the Windows platform decides to boycott and stop using it (never going to happen in my lifetime I think..) then Microsoft will do as they please.

[GoodBytes]

51 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Yes it does:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2974057/windows/how-to-turn-off-windows-10s-keylogger-yes-it-still-has-one.html

 

BTW Linux distros wont have it and anyone with a little brain in their heads wont use their phones anything important like banking .

No. PCWorld are morons. It is for he spell check/suggestion system. If you used Office since, what.. Office XP?! maybe even before, you had this.

It does not record every key stroke you do. It collects info when you use the spell check or suggested words. This is how you have on iOS and Android, when you type a word, and you then you can pretty pick the first and second word in the suggested list of words on top the keyboard to write a whole sentence. Same system.

[Commodus]

I can't help but think that part of the problem is our reluctance to actually treat privacy as seriously as we say we do, even if the concerns over Windows 10 are frequently overblown.

 

"Windows 10 harvests all your data!"

"Switch to Linux or a Mac, then?"

"But... my games!"

 

And then we use Windows 10 anyway (or hold out on 7/8 until we have no choice).

 

It's not easy, of course, because switching platforms frequently means giving up most or all of your games, and maybe some productivity apps.  But that's the whole problem: we say we care about privacy, but really we're more interested in playing Battlegrounds or Overwatch.  Microsoft has most of the PC market over a barrel, and it doesn't have to change much because it knows you won't give up your software library.

[jagdtigger]

6 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

No. PCWorld are morons. It is for he spell check/suggestion system. If you used Office since, what.. Office XP?! maybe even before, you had this.

It does not record every key stroke you do. It collects info when you use the spell check or suggested words. This is how you have on iOS and Android, when you type a word, and you then you can pretty pick the first and second word in the suggested list of words on top the keyboard to write a whole sentence. Same system.

" Send Microsoft info about how I write to help us improve typing and writing in the future. "

Well its pretty broad and it gives MS the chance for a full keylogger, not just for what you say. And considering their track record so far you can bet it that they using this "chance".

[GoodBytes]

6 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

" Send Microsoft info about how I write to help us improve typing and writing in the future. "

Well its pretty broad and it gives MS the chance for a full keylogger, not just for what you say. And considering their track record so far you can bet it that they using this "chance".

Reading... it is hard sometimes.

 

[mach]

What we really need are ways to pollute the data they collect....since blocking or disabling are near impossible as they seem.

Only when they find out the data collected are worthless, they will stop. (And then find new ways to spy and benefit from users, because it's their passion and soul.) 

[jagdtigger]

13 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Reading... it is hard sometimes.

 

It will be stored there but guess where all that info will be processed... (I help you, im pretty sure its not your PC.)

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

It will be stored there but guess where all that info will be processed... (I help you, im pretty sure its not your PC.)

Your dictionary is stored locally. When you talk to Cortana, it is processed by the cloud servers of Microsoft, When you write with a pen in the Ink to text panel, stoke segments are sent to improve ink to text on your system, and is sent to Microsoft servers for improving the recognition initially in future updates of the OS.

 

[SansVarnic]

People will always make mountains out of molehills if given the chance.

Human eyes will never see 99.99% of the raw telemetry sent by ones pc to the servers.

*shakes head*

 

[LAwLz]

10 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Your dictionary is stored locally. When you talk to Cortana, it is processed by the cloud servers of Microsoft, When you write with a pen in the Ink to text panel, stoke segments are sent to improve ink to text on your system, and is sent to Microsoft servers for improving the recognition initially in future updates of the OS.

So you agree that info such as what you write is sent to Microsoft? Because a few posts ago you were being snide and told him that "reading is hard for some", and calling people moron while trying to disprove them for making such a claim.

 

10 hours ago, SansVarnic said:

Human eyes will never see 99.99% of the raw telemetry sent by ones pc to the servers.

I don't see why that matters. To me, that's like saying "human eyes will never see 99.99% of votes" as an argument for why everyone should be forced to submit what they voted for to Google for them to store in their database. It does not matter if most data is not read by a human because it will still have an impact on things. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but possibility in the distant future. Besides, that 0.01% could still be really bad.

 

On top of that, your argument only makes sense if you assume that being spied on is the default opinion. That being spied on should be considered normal and nothing to make a fuss about. "If you don't come up with a valid argument for not being spied on then you should be spied on!". I think it is the other way around. Not collecting a huge amount of data, both personal and not personal, should be something that is very looked down upon and something companies should be very careful with doing. If they want to do it, then THEY should have to justify why they want to do it, not the customers having to justify why they want to keep their privacy.

Right now, Microsoft has not justified why they collect the things they do. In fact, even Microsoft themselves have said that about 50% of what they are collecting is completely useless to them.

[GoodBytes]

14 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

So you agree that info such as what you write is sent to Microsoft? Because a few posts ago you were being snide and told him that "reading is hard for some", and calling people moron while trying to disprove them for making such a claim.

Don't add words to my mount. I called no one such thing.

And no, I didn't say that what you write is sent to Microsoft. I said, strokes are sent.

[LAwLz]

33 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Don't add words to my mount. I called no one such thing.

And no, I didn't say that what you write is sent to Microsoft. I said, strokes are sent.

Oh sorry, so it was not you who wrote these posts?

 

On 2017-05-23 at 10:25 PM, GoodBytes said:

PCWorld are morons.

and:

On 2017-05-24 at 0:04 PM, GoodBytes said:

Reading... it is hard sometimes.

 

 

 

33 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

And no, I didn't say that what you write is sent to Microsoft. I said, strokes are sent.

Can you tell me the difference? Because it seems like we are very shortly going to go into an argument of semantics and I would like for you to explain in as much details  you can what you think Microsoft is collecting in terms of what the user inputs to the machine, either through clicking on a keyboard, writing with a pen, using voice commands, or any other type of input the user can give.

 

"They don't collect what you write, the just collect your strokes".

To me that is the same thing because strokes are what makes up what you write, a keystroke is you typing, and so is a stroke with a pen.

[GoodBytes]

11 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Oh sorry, so it was not you who wrote these posts?

I didn't call anyone of the forum morons, which is what you were referring to.

PCWorld don't know what they are talking about. And I stand by what I said.

 

You are trying to derail the topic, because this is Microsoft. If it was Google or Apple, you would defend them with your life. And your reactions on negative Apple and Google news, shows this.

 

Quote

Can you tell me the difference? Because it seems like we are very shortly going to go into an argument of semantics and I would like for you to explain in as much details  you can what you think Microsoft is collecting in terms of what the user inputs to the machine, either through clicking on a keyboard, writing with a pen, using voice commands, or any other type of input the user can give.

 

"They don't collect what you write, the just collect your strokes".

To me that is the same thing because strokes are what makes up what you write, a keystroke is you typing, and so is a stroke with a pen.

Oh please. You know perfectly what it means, you try to waste my time, and everyone else time here. No matter what is given to you, you'll deny.

Even if tomorrow Microsoft adds a full disable button on any tracking of any kind, any data sent to their server, full quits, server shutdown, no more nothing, and start sending updates via floppy disks that you need to go and get from stores. You'll still claim that the OS is actually trying to track you, spy your every move...

[jagdtigger]

20 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

You are trying to derail the topic, because this is Microsoft. If it was Google or Apple, you would defend them with your life. And your reactions on negative Apple and Google news, shows this.

Look who is talking with that flawed argument again... MS was caught several times "with their pants down"(how they lied several times and included PUP in their updates), IDK why you try to defend them. Its natural that after all what they done many people distrusted them and expect the worst from that company. Its just how the market works.

[captain_to_fire]

31 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Oh please. You know perfectly what it means, you try to waste my time, and everyone else time here. No matter what is given to you, you'll deny.

Just an observation, you whine too much whenever someone disagrees with you. Here's a pro tip, you're a forum mod, act like one. ??

 

Just saying