AMD speaks on W10 scheduler and Ryzen

[zMeul]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Stop repeating that, it's not true.

quote:

Quote

Microsoft's server spending decisions have the potential to impact suppliers' bottom lines -- its Azure service is No. 2 in cloud infrastructure behind Amazon, and it's one of the biggest server buyers. Last month, computer maker Hewlett Packard Enterprise Co. reported disappointing quarterly revenue, citing "significantly lower demand" from a major customer. That client was Microsoft, people familiar with the matter said.

not true, eh ...

[Valentyn]

26 minutes ago, zMeul said:

Naples ... oh boy

haven't you heard? HPC market is shifting towards ARM and ditching x86

who's Naples for?!!? junkyards 

Micorsoft have decided to partner with AMD for the first time in a decade, for their open source cloud hardware for Azure.

https://www.smarteranalyst.com/2017/03/08/advanced-micro-devices-inc-amd-announces-collaboration-microsoft-advance-open-source-cloud-hardware/

 

Quote

“Next quarter AMD will bring hardware innovation back into the datacenter and server markets with our high-performance ‘Naples’ x86 CPU, that was designed with the needs of cloud providers, enterprise OEMs and customers in mind

MS will be testing Intel, AMD, and ARM to see which works the best for them. Nothing is set in stone about them already adopting ARM.

 

 

At the same time, Microsoft are only testing ARM processors

http://www.geekwire.com/2017/look-intel-microsoft-tries-arm-processors-cloud-qualcomm-partnership/

 

 

AMD also are making ARM64 processors, and not long ago were talking about an x86 ARM hybrid.

http://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/anton-shilov/amd-ready-to-build-custom-64-bit-arm-processors-for-servers/

 

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/01/14/amd_arm_seattle_launch/

[leadeater]

Just now, zMeul said:

quote:

not true, eh ...

They are moving segments of the Azure infrastructure to ARM based systems, not all. The Azure cloud portfolio is very large and large parts of it are still going to be x86 for a long time yet.

[SCHISCHKA]

9 minutes ago, samcool55 said:

 

I rest my case until i see a product that shows us ARM is capable of competing with Naples/Xeon cpu's.

Proof first, then we will talk

I don't see any projects where arm challenges x86 except in multimedia where theres other hardware that does the real work. Think tablets and phones and TV that can do 4k. Arm will never replace real work. But don't you think that it's weakness is it's strength? If they can piss real work off to cheap commodity hardware while running a foss system arm should be able to do anything while providing an income stream to manufacturers who are currently shrinking in the x86 space

[zMeul]

1 minute ago, SCHISCHKA said:

I don't see any projects where arm challenges x86 except in multimedia where theres other hardware that does the real work. Think tablets and phones and TV that can do 4k. Arm will never replace those. But don't you think that it's weakness is it's strength? If they can piss real work off to cheap commodity hardware while running a foss system arm should be able to do anything while providing an income stream to manufacturers who are currently shrinking in the x86 space

the thing with ARM is that is more power efficient than x86 - x86 is an omni arch that executes almost anything you throw at it

ARM is built around RISC and if the software is built correctly it can produce faster results

[SCHISCHKA]

4 minutes ago, zMeul said:

the thing with ARM is that is more power efficient than x86 - x86 is an omni arch that executes almost anything you throw at it

ARM is built around RISC and if the software is built correctly it can produce faster results

Yes I only have limited experience in CPU architectures in occasionally compiling Linux for embedded devices. Arm is great it's not as bloated. I see it future as what AMD tried to do with the FX in that the CPU just runs the os  and performs simple maths. Hard out encryption or 3d graphics can be flicked off to other hardware. That's a win for hardware oem

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, Fetzie said:

Buy the processor for your work case. It's OK for that not to be Ryzen. It's also OK for that to be a 1700x over a 6900k if you want 16 logical cores, and motherboard dependent, ECC support on a smaller budget than the Intel platform. What is important is you now have the option. Ryzen is a compelling product for some use cases. It doesn't have to be a compelling product for all use cases to be successful.

Exactly

But sadly that is not enough for a lot of people. They either want it to be the best at everything, or say it is the worst at everything.

 

Personally I am in the camp that think Ryzen is way overhyped and overrated. It's not that it's a bad product, but Ryzen 7 is a bad buy for most people. The majority of people who are interested and follows Ryzen are people who should get a i5 because they play games and use mainly programs which doesn't scale well with increased thread count. For those people, it doesn't make sense to pay more for a processor that performs worse for most of the tasks they do.

 

For the people who do know that they can take advantage of more cores, Ryzen is great. In fact, I think it has killed the 6800K and most of the X99 platform (except for niche uses like a lot of PCIe lanes). Why would anyone buy the 6800K anymore? It's shit compared to Ryzen 7.

Ryzen 7 is only great because of the performance it provides today though. It is not great because there might be updates to programs several years from now which will make them perform better. By the time all these "fixes" people talk about comes out, it's probably time to replace it anyway (if these "fixes" even comes out to begin with... looking at you Bulldozer).

 

Don't like the performance benchmarks (and I mean the general consensus of benchmarks, not the outlier like The Joker) shows? Then don't buy it.

 

 

51 minutes ago, Daiyus said:

Too many people jump the gun without looking for evidence.

There was some evidence to support their theories. The problem is that they came up with the theory first, and then looked for evidence to support it. This is the exact opposite of what you should do. You should look for evidence, and then come up with a conclusion based on that. You should not come up with a conclusion, and then find evidence that supports it. Veritasium has a great video about this phenomenon.

 

Funnily enough, he also has a video about the reason why I dislike sites like /r/amd so much. It becomes an echo-chamber, and people believe things they hear often to be true. So this thing about the Windows scheduler had really little evidence (which someone worked backwards to get) but it was repeated so often that people started believing it was true.

 

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

You should not come up with a conclusion, and then find evidence that supports it. Veritasium has a great video about this phenomenon.

Sadly most people concluded that Ryzen was amazing before launch... We all remember how many bloody Ryzen threads there were before release right? Was getting more than a little insane.

[zMeul]

19 minutes ago, SCHISCHKA said:

Arm is great it's not as bloated

it's not that ARM is streamlined or x86 is bloated - they do different things

if you're going to built a ARM CPU and use it on a desktop, you'll quickly find out it performs poorly .. Windows RT anyone!?!?

 

and the reverse is true for x86 - why put a power hungry x86 CPU in a system that does data storage? an AMR CPU can handle it, it will be cheaper and draw less power

[samcool55]

Just now, zMeul said:

it's not that ARM is streamlined or x86 is bloated - they do different things

if you're going to built a ARM CPU and use it on a desktop, you'll quickly find out it performs poorly .. Windows RT anyone!?!?

 

and the reverse is true for x86 - why put a power hungry x86 CPU in a system that does data storage? and AMR CPU can handle it, it will be cheaper and draw less power

Well the thing is that's not how it's going to work tomorrow.

Today we have a badass cpu powered server with VM's and one storage focused server.

We are now heading to servers with decent cpu power and decent storage like the very early days (90's-00's) but turning them with software in 1 huge pool. Storage and cpu power is combined again in 1 physical machine but they are all connected together.

 

With that mindset ARM would be obsolete before it's even here... It's important to understand where server farms are actually heading to right now without ARM. If ARM doesn't fit in the picture anymore in a few years it's pointless.

[zMeul]

2 minutes ago, samcool55 said:

-

MS wouldn't even manufacture and test the darn things if there wasn't a real use for them

 

few years back would you even imagined GPUs to be good a compute? and I mean really good at it

[Valentyn]

8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Sadly most people concluded that Ryzen was amazing before launch... We all remember how many bloody Ryzen threads there were before release right? Was getting more than a little insane.

Ah now! We have a little more Ryzen thread love at the moment than 2 weeks ago.

[SCHISCHKA]

10 minutes ago, zMeul said:

it's not that ARM is streamlined or x86 is bloated - they do different things

if you're going to built a ARM CPU and use it on a desktop, you'll quickly find out it performs poorly .. Windows RT anyone!?!?

 

and the reverse is true for x86 - why put a power hungry x86 CPU in a system that does data storage? and AMR CPU can handle it, it will be cheaper and draw less power

Yep I agree. Windows RT is another can of worms. I was trying to say arm is in a position that certain things can be offloaded to hardware such as disk encryption where x86 does this but for the end customer it might not be cost effective. This provides revenue streams for OEM who are dying under x86

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, SCHISCHKA said:

Yep I agree. Windows RT is another can of worms

Windows 10 Cloud? 

[SCHISCHKA]

Just now, leadeater said:

Windows 10 Cloud? 

Cloud? What is that? Is that this internet thing everyone is raving about? Last I looked Ubuntu was somewhere between 30 to 40% on MS azure. Fkin score for canonical. MS can try but you won't get windows branding on consumer devices as long as people remember the 90s

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, SCHISCHKA said:

Cloud? What is that? Is that this internet thing everyone is raving about? Last I looked Ubuntu was somewhere between 30 to 40% on MS azure. Fkin score for canonical. MS can try but you won't get windows branding on consumer devices as long as people remember the 90s

Basically it's Windows RT again, another cut down Windows OS to take on Chromebooks etc.

http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/31/14450780/microsoft-windows-10-cloud

http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/windows-10-cloud-allows-external-app-installs/

[Liltrekkie]

Ah, another thread where zMeul finds a bogus reason to shit on AMD. 

 

Feeling high and mighty on your throne of Intel chips? 

 

So while zMeul figures out 10 different ways to call me an idiot and an AMD fanboy lets state some facts.

 

Windows 7 was always better. 

As has been stated the 7700k is better for pure gaming. As everyone has been stating. 

Anyone who hyped themselves thinking Ryzen would be some magic chip gets what they deserve. 

I'm pretty sure any smart person knew you can't create an 8 core chip that completes with both the 6900k and 7700k without using tons of power or being a heater. Doing it with 95 watts? ahaha. 

Why people keep comparing it to the 7700k is beyond me because it was clearly stated this was meant to battle Intels HEDT line. 

zMeul needs to compare the 6900k and 7700k and shut up about AMD because comparing 1800x to the 7700k is stupid unless you compare the 6900k to it too. 

 

And to counter zMeul saying I'm an AMD fanboy, I'm running a 5960x and a Intel 750 series SSD. Obviously I'm such an AMD fanboy there. 

[SCHISCHKA]

7 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Basically it's Windows RT again, another cut down Windows OS to take on Chromebooks etc.

http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/31/14450780/microsoft-windows-10-cloud

http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/windows-10-cloud-allows-external-app-installs/

Ewww

[PCGuy_5960]

5 minutes ago, Liltrekkie said:

I'm pretty sure any smart person knew you can't create an 8 core chip that completes with both the 6900k and 7700k without using tons of power or being a heater. Doing it with 95 watts? ahaha. 

 

Lel. Power consumption has nothing to do with TDP:

 

7 minutes ago, Liltrekkie said:

Why people keep comparing it to the 7700k is beyond me because it was clearly stated this was meant to battle Intels HEDT line. 

 

Intel's HEDT line beats it:

 

[Liltrekkie]

Just now, PCGuy_5960 said:

-snip-

While you lel at that, go back and reread what I said. "You cant do it without consuming tons of power OR being a heater" did you not read the or being a heater part? Maybe you missed that. Try again. 

 

And congrats to the HEDT lineup beating the 1800x. No where did I say Ryzen was better, I simply said it should be compared to the HEDT lineup and not the 7700k. 

 

Perhaps you should reread my post. 

[PCGuy_5960]

Ryzen's Gaming performance is mostly an issue with its architecture:

Quote

While it was not our reason for performing this test, the results may provide a possible explanation for the relatively poor performance seen in some gaming workloads. Multithreaded media encoding and tests like Cinebench segment chunks of the workload across multiple threads. There is little inter-thread communication necessary as each chunk is sent back to a coordination thread upon completion. Games (and some other workloads we assume) are a different story as their threads are sharing a lot of actively changing data, and a game that does this heavily might incur some penalty if a lot of those communications ended up crossing between CCX modules.

This is from PCPer's article. I have one question, why did AMD have to make Ryzen 7 a dual quad core die? Why did they not make an 8 core die and call it a day? Had they done that, Ryzen would be an AMAZING CPU for everyone. Now, it is only for content creators who game. 

[PCGuy_5960]

2 minutes ago, Liltrekkie said:

While you lel at that, go back and reread what I said. "You cant do it without consuming tons of power OR being a heater" did you not read the or being a heater part? Maybe you missed that. Try again. 

Misread that. Sorry.

2 minutes ago, Liltrekkie said:

And congrats to the HEDT lineup beating the 1800x. No where did I say Ryzen was better, I simply said it should be compared to the HEDT lineup and not the 7700k. 

And I said that Intel's HEDT line beats it. Let's not forget that the 6900K and the 5960X aren't the only CPUs in that lineup. The 5820K and the 6800K exist and both of them outperform Ryzen in gaming workloads and don't do too bad in multithreaded workloads....

[Liltrekkie]

Just now, PCGuy_5960 said:

And I said that Intel's HEDT line beats it. Let's not forget that the 6900K and the 5960X aren't the only CPUs in that lineup. The 5820K and the 6800K exist and both of them outperform Ryzen in gaming workloads and don't do too bad in multithreaded workloads....

And you're right about that. I'm also not surprised it gets beat by it. Especially with the clock speed bump when compared to the 6900k.  4 threads really doesn't make a difference in most games. Clock speed is what matters for the most part. Even though the 1800x has a small increase in clock speed over the 6800k, I can't help but wonder how much the CCX issue is holding back the Ryzen platform. 

 

I firmly believe this is part of AMD's problem, they went for a chip that competes with the HEDT lineup, doing HEDT type workloads, streaming, editing, with gaming performance as a back burner. I had that feeling since the demos. 

 

Hopefully the 6 core and 4 core versions will fare better at gaming. 

 

But, it still won't stop me from building a ryzen system once it matures a bit. *cough* BIOS issues *cough* 

[PCGuy_5960]

18 minutes ago, Liltrekkie said:

Hopefully the 6 core and 4 core versions will fare better at gaming. 

I hope that the Ryzen quad core will be a 1700(X)/1800X with one CCX disabled... Then it would be extremely competitive with the 7700K, especially with the very low latency between the cores on the same CCX. The 6 core will not be that amazing, because (from what we know so far) it will have 2 CCXs with one core disabled on each CCX.

18 minutes ago, Liltrekkie said:

I firmly believe this is part of AMD's problem, they went for a chip that competes with the HEDT lineup, doing HEDT type workloads, streaming, editing, with gaming performance as a back burner. I had that feeling since the demos. 

IMO, it was designed to be a nice middle ground between Intel's consumer and Intel's HEDT lineup. Because, it has 24 PCIe lanes. (16 of which are dedicated to expansion cards) and "only" 2 memory channels, we can't say that it competes directly with Intel's HEDT CPUs, which have a minimum of 28 PCIe lanes and all of them support quad channel memory. And because the higher end Ryzen CPUs have 8/6 Cores we can't say that Ryzen competes directly with Intel's consumer lineup, as the highest end consumer CPU by Intel has 4 cores. 

[Valentyn]

Just now, PCGuy_5960 said:

I hope that the Ryzen quad core will be a 1700(X)/1800X with one CCX disabled... Then it would be extremely competitive with the 7700K, especially with the very low latency between the cores on the same CCX.

Hardware.fr tested two scenarios for the Quadcore. One CCX 4core vs two CCX 2+2

20% improvement in BF1 using a single CCX....

3-8% in other games.

 

This was running all cores at a locked 3Ghz, and SMT off.

 

http://www.hardware.fr/articles/956-24/retour-sous-systeme-memoire-suite.html