Before you buy amp and DAC + recommendations.

[StrudelMan]

No mention of electrostats? Drop x Koss ESP/95X has much more "analyticallness" than an of the headphones mentioned. And if one has the money, Stax does exist... Although if they to be included, one must mention that they require energizers to operate.

[MS-DOS]

Im asking about these 2 DACs here:

 

[HumdrumPenguin]

On 5/4/2016 at 7:20 AM, Pineapple Wolf said:

I'll be getting a pair of Audeze LCD-2's soon, I have a maximus ranger vi for onboard audio.

Do you think I'll need a amp and or dac? Might be a bit silly for me to get these headphones and not get as good of an experience as I can for them.

If so could you recommend something for me to get, I live in the UK btw

 

Thanks

You'll need it. You can go with Schiit's Asgard 3 and Modius. That will run you down USD400 + shipping and taxes. As a heads up, you might want to check out Audeze Plugin that auto tunes their cans for you. Out of the box the sound can be described as a bit wonky by some (me included).

[skaullywag]

On 3/8/2016 at 11:48 AM, Dackzy said:

Okay guys I have seen a lot of people on here is starting to wanting to buy amps and dacs and let me just explain to you guys why you need one and why you don't need one. This is going to be very basic and generalised.

 

Reasons to get a DAC.

 

1. Noise in your sound

2. Your onboard makes the sound warm or cold sounding

3. Over all low quality sound coming from your onboard

4. Can look nice

5. You want more detail and higher audio quality

 

Reasons to NOT get a DAC.

 

1. No noise.

2. No coloring in your onboard.

3. You already have "transparent" sound. ( kinda the same as Nr. 2)

4. Takes up space.

5. You will need to buy an amp.

 

Reasons to get a amp.

 

1. You can't power your headphones. (your headphones don't get loud enough)

2. Your headphones sound muddy only at that pc (kinda the same as Nr. 1)

3. Can look nice.

4. You want to try tube sound. (they get really hot, so do NOT touch them.)

5. You want better audio quality (though keep in mind that if your source is bad then it won't suddenly sound good with a better amp)

6. Less noise

 

Reasons to NOT get a amp.

 

1. You can power your headphones.

2. Takes up space.

 

Most motherboards on the market to day can power 90%-95% of all the headphones on the market. A DAC and amp will not make your headphones a lot better if you already have "transparent" sound and they are powered properly, they can bring out more detail and overall better audio quality, but I wouldn't recommend getting a DAC and amp if you don't have good headphones, I would rather recommend that you save the money and get better headphones, expecially if you are unhappy by the sound you have in your headphones, because no DAC and amp is suddenly going to do any major change the signature of your headphones.

 

Ohm does not say if your headphones are hard to drive or not.

 

You can have 600 Ohm headphones that are easier to drive than 32 Ohm headphones. It is the sensitivity and efficiency that matters the most.

A very quick exsample of this would be the K612 and the HE 560. The K612 has a ohm rating of 120 Ohm and a sensitivity rating of 101 SPL/V, while the HE 560 has a Ohm rating of 45 Ohm and a efficiency rating of 90 SPL/mW. Using a online calculator we get these results, which shows that the HE 560 will need more power than the K612, despite the K612 having a Ohm rating that is almost three times higher than the HE 560's.

I used this website to calculate the power needed http://www.digizoid.com/headphones-power.html

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Hifiman HE 560

 

AKG K612 pro

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wnat to know how much power your headphones need and the math behind it? Look here

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Okay let’s explain this a bit more. Headphone drivers have efficiency that is shown as dB/mW or SPL/mW, but they also have a thing called sensitivity which is shown as dB/V or SPL/V, some headphone manufactors will list the sensitivity while others will list the efficiency, so how do you convert dB/mW to dB/V? It is actually really easy.

 

The formula goes like this , just remember that multiplying sign is “stronger” than plus or minus, the same goes for dividing sing, so you must multiply and divide before you minus.

 

If you want to make dB/V into then the formula goes like this 

 

Let us take a little example with the DT 770 80 Ohm. They have a efficiency of 96 SPL/mW, so let’s see what that is in SPL/V

 

Okay that gives us a sensitivity of about 107 SPL/V, let us see if this is correct

Yep it matches up.

 

Now we can calculate how much power they need.

We are going to calculate our desired loudness to be 110dB, why? It is a good middle ground, which has a leeway of about +/- 5dB on either side. Pop music and compressed music has a peak SPL of about 105dB, while high dynamic range audio, like audiophile recordings has 115dB peak.

Let’s get on with the math.

We are first going to look at the calculation using the efficiency

We are first going to calculate the required power in milliwatts and we are again going to use the DT 770 80 ohm.

 

The Formulas goes like this

Now let’s put in our numbers

 

Let us now find out the milliamps with this formula

Now we put our numbers in

 

Now let’s find the voltage that we need

 

Now we know the voltage, the watt and the ampere we need to get them to play at 110 dB.

 

Let us now make the calculation with sensitivity.

 

We start with the required voltage.

Which we use this formula for

We have our sensitivity from before which was about 107 dB/V, so now we just plug our numbers in

 

We can now find the required power with this formula

This should give about 25 mW, just like what we got when we calculated the required power with efficiency

 

Lastly, we have the current aka the milliamps. We are just going to divide the mW with the V

And that is how you calculate the required power, volts and current with efficiency and sensitivity.

 

You can also use a website like this one to calculate everything for you.

http://www.digizoid.com/headphones-power.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Different explanations (keeping it simple)

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Noise: you have crakling or some other sound that should not be there.

 

Warm sound: You have more bass and lower mids in your sound when you use your headphones with that pc.

 

Cold sound: You have more treble and less bass in your sound when you use your headphones with that pc.

 

Coloring: Your DAC, amp adds treble/bass/mids.

 

Transparent: your DAC, amp does not add any extra treble/bass/mids to the sound. Nothing is 100% transparent, since everything has its own sound, it can just be a extremely subtle.

 

Tube amp/tube sound: A tube amp generally makes the sound smoother and warmer because it distorts the sound.

 

Going to add more advanced terms soon.

 

 

Before you go buy an amp for some headphones you just orded wait get the headphones and test them with your onboard before you go spend money on a amp.

Before you go buy an DAC amp combo, if you already has transparent sound and you have nothing wrong with your onboard DAC then you will not notice a difference between your onboard and a DAC and if you buy an DAC you will need an amp.

 

Remember sound is not black and white like some people say it is, there are more to sound than just specs.

 

Only look down here if you really need an DAC and amp or just an amp

 

Why get anything else than the cheap products?

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Okay, we have probably all been looking into some audio gear and seen a price where we just thought "WTF is going on here?". So now let me explain why we have audio gear that cost way over 1000$. This will be simple and VERY general, it is just to give you an idea of why.

 

DISCLAIMER: Just because something cost a lot, doesn't mean it is actually good or anything like that.

First DACs.

When you look at DACs, then you might have come across some that cost 1200$, but why are they better than the 100$ one? A DAC, takes your digital signal and makes it analog, but in the process of the digital signal being transformed into analog and out to your headphone amp or speaker amp it goes through many different components, which all add their own little "touch" to the end signal, each component will add some distortion in some way, which will change the sound a tiny bit or maybe a lot (depending on the part). 

 

The higher end DACs will use higher quality parts which in return means less distortion, but distortion is not everything, it is actually far from everything, let me explain. If you look at specs of a DAC you might see something like ES9018 or AK4490 in your 200$ DAC, but at the same time you might also see them in a DAC that cost 800$, so why is that? Well to put it simply, the implementation of the chip becomes better, which leads to more detail and overall cleaner sound, maybe even a bigger soundstage and better imaging. So the audio quality actually sees a bump. Once you go with the "higher end" DACs you also start to get balanced outputs such as dual 3 pin XLR and multiple inputs, some which you might never have seen before. Only you can say if it is worth it for you to pay maybe upwards of 2300$ for a DAC.

 

I think we covered the reasoning behind higher end DACs, now amps.
When you hear the word amp, you might think that an amp just amplifies a signal up and yes that is the basics of it, but amps also have their own sound, some might bring out some more bass, while others might tame the treble a bit. The cheap amps might have an output impedance of 20 ohms, while a high-end one might be 1 ohm, but why does this matter? the 20-ohm amp wouldn't be able to be used with IEMs without a lot of noise and distortion, while the 1-ohm amp wouldn't have those problems, but that isn't all. If you go through my list of amp recommendations and leave out the tube amps, then the power they give out it cleaner, less colored, don't drown the small details out and so on. You also start to see that some headphone amps get balanced inputs and output.

If you plan to really get into this and want high-end gear, then I would recommend reading up on some terms like: Speed, clarity, macrodynamics, microdynamics and microdetail (some calls this plankton). Though most of them kinda say what they are in their name. Also trust your own ears more than you trust other people and remember to test the actual gear before you buy it. So again the actual audio quality goes up.

 

I think this covers the basics of why we have the very expensive gear. Though I must add that some headphones will show a difference more clearly than others would. The Sennheiser HD 800's are known for being very picky, when it comes to amps and DACs and will show a bigger difference between different DACs and amps than a pair of AD500x's would or something like that, so also take your headphones into consideration when you pick up a new DAC or new amp or both.

What is a DAP? (Digital Audio Player)

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To put it simply, then a DAP is a high quality MP3 player, but a DAP usually support stuff that is FLAC or higher. You would typically see people with higher quality IEMs or CIEMs (Custom in ear monitors) have some form of a DAP, because they want the high audio quality that they bring to the table, combined with the low output impedance and more power. You would also typically see them used by people that want to test gear in stores or at shows, since they generally offer a higher audio quality than your phone or laptop and they are very portable.

 

There are generally two types of DAPs. 

The first type is a Android based DAP, it allows you to stream music via Wi-Fi and download different apps, it is basically just a phone without a sim tray and 4G, but with much better audio. Though they don't have a lot of CPU power, so don't expect to also play games on them.

 

The Second type is the one that is based on a custom OS, these cannot connect to Wi-Fi and stream Tidal or Spotify, so you are bound to only listen to the music you have on it, some of them do offer bluetooth, so you can stream Tidal or Spotify from your phone to your DAP.

 

Some DAPs also offer the ability to connect to a PC via USB, so you can use it at home as your personal DAC and amp.

 

So if you want higher audio quality on the go, then a DAP is probably what you are looking for.

 

I have used amazon.de and amazon.com for every product that is not from Schiit where I used their own webshop

 

Before looking at tube amps

A tube amp is best with headphones that have a high impedance because it is there they have their power, while a normal solid state amp normally has the most power in the lower ohms. I highly recommend not getting a tube amp for let's say 35 Ohm headphones, but rather a tube hybrid amp which is a mix of a tube and solid state amp, you get the sound of tubes while still having the power in the lower Ohms and having a lower output impedance.

 

My recommendations for desktop amps:

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Schiit Magni 3 EU= 120€ US= $99

This is pretty much the go toamp if you have 100$, it can output a whole 2W at 32 Ohm and it has a clean detailed sound and offers great value. It has a low high gain switch on the back where you also find the power on off switch and the stereo RCA input. It can also function as a pre amp for your powered speakers.

 

JDS Labs Atom US= $99

Competitor for the Schiit Magni 3, it offers the same features as the Magni 3, but it also has a 3.5mm input. It can output 1W at 32 Ohm and it offers a clean sound for the price and is a tad less warm than the Magni 3 in its tonality. This is mainly an option for US based people.

 

Massdrop Cavalli Tube Hybrid US= $249

As the name says it is a hybrid amp, so you get some of the warmth and coloration from a tube, but unlike a OTL tube amp this amp has a output impedance of under 0.5 Ohm, which means dampening shouldn't be a problem with low impedance headphones, like it would be with your typical OTL amp. It has 4 pin XLR and 1/4" out for headphones and RCA in. It uses a 6922 tube, which is a rather easy and cheap tube type to get. Overall the sound is clean and detailed and how much you notice the tube will vary from headphone to headphone. This is a massdrop product, so people outside of the US have to add import ontop of the MSRP.

 

Massdrop THX AAA 789 US= $349

This is amp is price in the entry to mid range level, but offers performance that can compete with higher end amps. It is very transparent, but it has a small bump in the subbass, though this isn't noticeable with all headphones. It has both Balanced and unbalanced in and outputs. It has 3 gain settings and it offers plenty of power no matter the impedance, at 32 Ohm it can output 6W per channel and at 600 Ohm it can output 0.4W. This will be more than enough for any headphone on the market. This is a massdrop product, so people outside of the US have to add import ontop of the MSRP.

 

Schiit Valhalla 2 (tube amp) EU= 379€ US= $349

This is another good tube amp from Schiit, it offers great audio quality for the price, it has a maximum output of 180mW at 50 Ohm which is often more than enough, but at 300 Ohm it has a maximum output of 800mW. It is very clean and detailed with good staging. It pairs well with high impedance headphones.

 

 

Little Labs Monotor EU= 589€ US= $540

This amp is a new'ish entry to the neutral market of headphone amps, in testing I found it to be a fairly impressive amp for the price. It offers a low output impedance which means it will work well with headphones that have a low impedance, since the 8th rule is easy to follow with this amp. It is from my testing neck and neck with the Meier Audio Corda Classic. Great if you have a small home studio or something similar.

 

 

Meier Audio Corda Classic EU= 595€ US= $575

If you are looking for a very analytical and neutral amp then this is the amp to get, I have yet to hear a single amp under 1200$ that offer this kind of neutrallity. It is made with very high quality parts that you ussually don't see in this budget that often and it offers two inputs, so you can hook it up to two different DACs if you desiere to do so. If this matters to you then you should know it is made by a guy in Germany. Keep in mind that he gives discounts when you come over a certain price and world-wide shipping is included in the price. I wouldn't recommend getting this if you are looking for a warm sound.

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My recommendations for desktop DACs:

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Schiit Modi 2 Uber EU= 165€  US= $150

This is a entry level DAC with USB, Toslink SPDIF and Coaxial inputs, it offers a good quality bump over onboard, but it cannot compete with higher end DACs when it comes to detail and precision, this is for most people all that they need. It can also only connect to one amp at a time via RCA. It has a bit of the "thick" lows that some schiit DACs have. It is a bit clearner sounding than the none Uber model and it also needs a wall outlet unlike the none Uber.

 

Meier Audio Corda DACCORD EU= 645€ US= $705

Not sure where to start with this one. It is very clean sounding, no added bass, no added highs, great separation, amazing blacks, good width and a superb crossfeed filter. I can't really say anything bad about it for the price. It has Coaxial, Optical and USB, so you have a wide range of options when it comes to connecting it to your own system and it has both a fixed output and a variable output, so you can control the volume of powered monitors with it. This is IMO really how a DAC should sound when we hit this price range. Keep in mind that he gives discounts when you come over a certain price and world-wide shipping is included in the price.

 

Soekris DAC1321 EU= 612,5€ US=$559

This is the best cheap R2R DAC that I have heard in a while. If you want to try a R2R DAC, but you don't want to spend the likes of $1000 or more, then I highly recommend trying the Soekris DAC 1321. The detail level is high and it has some natural warmth to its sound. It shares its sound characteristics with its bigger siblings, but it comes in at a lower price. The blacks are amazing for a R2R DAC and it has a good width. It also doesn't lack connections with its 3 digital inputs, you can use it with USB, S/PDIF or Coaxial.

 

Rotel RDD-1580 EU= 800€ US= $800

This is a do it all kind of DAC, it has six inputs which include digital coaxial, optical toslink and USB, plus it has bluetooth so you can stream the music from your phone to it. It hits a good balance between features and sound, while still being made very well. It offers stereo balanced out and unbalanced RCA out.

 

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My recommendations for desktop Combos:

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Schiit Fulla 2  EU= 99€ US= $99

Pretty much the best combo you can get for 99$ or 99€, more than powerful for a lot of headphones, while still having high audio quality like the rest of Schiit products. If you don't NEED the power of a Schiit stack, then get this one. It only has a single USB input.

 

 

Monoprice Desktop Amp EU=?? US= $70-80

A competitor to the Fulla 2, but you should only use it with high impedance headphones, since the output impedance is 10 ohm, which is pretty high. The performance is solid for its price. It also has Pre out for powered speakers and line out so you can hook it up to a different amp and purely use it as a DAC, though I don't recommend doing this.

 

 

Audio-GD NFB-11.28

This one is a bit harder to get your hands on, but it is worth it. It has a very transparent sound with a lot of detail and offers a lot of power.

It has USB, optical and coaxial inputs. It just got upgraded with a Sabre 9028, instead of a 9018 and some other small upgrades.

You can buy from them directly here for 330$ (without shipping), if you are in EU then I have found it here for 409€ (without shipping)

 

 

Dangerous Music Source EU= 1100€ US=$800

Quite a nice combo for the price, with features that some might not need. It offers a very clean sound with a good amount of detail for the price and it is perfect for the guy that wants to control his powered speakers. You have separate controls for headphones and speakers. If you are looking for a combo that can do it all and have the money for this, then give it a look, if you don't need the extra features and so on, then maybe look into some of the separate DACs and amps on this thread.

 

 

Soekris 1541 EU = 1562,5€ US= $1425

For the same or about the same price as the Gungnir Multibit you can get this combo and it beats the Gungnir multi in every single aspect except stagning and you also get a fairly good amp. It has different filters that actually change the sound and it has both balanced and unbalanced output to headphones and both balanced and unbalanced pre-output that you can use to hook it up to another amp or to active speakers. If this is too expensive and you don't need balanced out for powered monitors or headphones and you are willing to take a small hit in detail retrival then the Soekris 1421 might just be for you.

 

 

Crane Song Solaris EU= 2138€ US= $1950

In many ways this would be the direct upgrade from the ADI 2 DAC, but it has less features. You won't get things like a IEM output or a EQ, but what you do get is a even cleaner sound and even more detailed sound. I wouldn't recommend this for the average user, but rather someone that has a home studio or wants a very uncolored sound that will show flaws in the music. 

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My recommendations for small Combos that run on usb only:

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Fiio k1 EU= 50€ US= $40 (on sale)
Only look at this if you need something really cheap. I would only get this if your onboard is broken.

 

 

LH Labs GO2A US= $299

Small DAC and amp unit that is good if you want to have a DAC and amp with you when you use your laptop.

 

 

My recommendations for DAPs (Digital audio players)

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Sony NW-A40 series (A45, A46 and A47)

This is for the more budget minded person. This series is great for anyone that want to get better audio quality on the go, but don't want to pay upwards of 500$. They are only unbalanced, but for their price they offer a good amount of detail with a overall natural sound to them.

 

 

Sony NW-ZX300

The little brother to the WM1A, but don't let that fool you it is a very capable DAP, like its bigger brother the WM1A it also have a unbalanced and a balanced output. It can't compete with the WM1A when it comes to detail and overall audio quality, but for its price it is a amazing DAP with a lot of detail and spacious sound. It also runs Sony's own OS and like its bigger brother it also offers Bluetooth

 

 

Sony NW-WM1A

Amazing DAP, it offers unbalanced and balanced output to headphones and it is very well known for offering very high audio quality with a lot of detail and is generally looked upon as the go to high end DAP. It does not have Wifi like some other DAPs, but it does have Bluetooth and the OS is not android, but rather Sony's own OS. 

 

 

Cowon Plenue D

This is one beutiful DAP both in looks and sound. If you want a small DAP for not a lot of money, but still want good audio quality then look no further. It is a very well respected DAP and for a good reason, it doesn't get much better in this price range, but it recently got some tough competistion from Sony's A40 seires. This is however a DAP with a touch screen.

 

I have seen way too many different prices on these DAPs to really set a range, but the Sony DAPs are set up so the cheapest ones are at the top. The Cowon is usually priced pretty similar to a Sony NW-A45.

 

Where do I buy schiit in EU?

http://www.schiit-europe.com/

http://schiit.eu.com/   (UK)

Where do I buy Soekris?
https://www.modhouseaudio.com/ (USA)

http://www.soekris.eu/shop/index.php (EU)

 

 

Lastly if you have interference look at this guide SSL has made.

 

If you have suggestions about gear and explanations.

If you have some gear that you would like to see added then there are 4 options.

 

Comment the gear you would like to see added and why or send me a PM, I will then look into it very thoroughly when I have time and if I find it worthy, then it will be added. Often I will get a loaner unit and test it.

 

If you want a explanation to something, then comment what you would like explained or send me a PM and then I will look into it.

 

FEEL FREE TO ASK ME ANYTHING ABOUT THIS POST

Remember there are no stupid questions, I am here to help.

I hope that this post helped you and cleared some things up for you 

Okay I've got a work laptop with only a single 3.5mm headphone jack. it's supposed to be a combo but that's besides the point. I'd like to get something like Fiio k1 to just connect my Sennhieser PC 37X's. I would love to just use the laptop, but the sabrent usb adapter is for shit and doesn't pass through any of my audio from my mic. I would settle for something less expensive than the FIio k1 but I haven't the slightest clue where to start for that.

p.s. I frequently do trainings so if I can get clear audio at a minimal cost that'd be a plus.

[PlayToBeat]

I'm playing COD on the pc (+some other games), watching Netflix and listen to some music on iTunes.
I currently have HYPERX Cloud Alpha Pro, Shure SE215, Pinnacle P1 + Dolby Atmos installed + a motherboard that supports Realtek S1200A Codec and DTS® Custom audio.

Should I buy Creative G6 / FiiO K5 pro? will it improve the sound quality while Dolby Atmos is installed or not so much? 
 

[geo3]

On 3/8/2016 at 10:48 AM, Dackzy said:

My recommendations for desktop amps:

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Schiit Magni 3 EU= 120€ US= $99

This is pretty much the go toamp if you have 100$, it can output a whole 2W at 32 Ohm and it has a clean detailed sound and offers great value. It has a low high gain switch on the back where you also find the power on off switch and the stereo RCA input. It can also function as a pre amp for your powered speakers.

 

JDS Labs Atom US= $99

Competitor for the Schiit Magni 3, it offers the same features as the Magni 3, but it also has a 3.5mm input. It can output 1W at 32 Ohm and it offers a clean sound for the price and is a tad less warm than the Magni 3 in its tonality. This is mainly an option for US based people.

 

Massdrop Cavalli Tube Hybrid US= $249

As the name says it is a hybrid amp, so you get some of the warmth and coloration from a tube, but unlike a OTL tube amp this amp has a output impedance of under 0.5 Ohm, which means dampening shouldn't be a problem with low impedance headphones, like it would be with your typical OTL amp. It has 4 pin XLR and 1/4" out for headphones and RCA in. It uses a 6922 tube, which is a rather easy and cheap tube type to get. Overall the sound is clean and detailed and how much you notice the tube will vary from headphone to headphone. This is a massdrop product, so people outside of the US have to add import ontop of the MSRP.

 

Massdrop THX AAA 789 US= $349

This is amp is price in the entry to mid range level, but offers performance that can compete with higher end amps. It is very transparent, but it has a small bump in the subbass, though this isn't noticeable with all headphones. It has both Balanced and unbalanced in and outputs. It has 3 gain settings and it offers plenty of power no matter the impedance, at 32 Ohm it can output 6W per channel and at 600 Ohm it can output 0.4W. This will be more than enough for any headphone on the market. This is a massdrop product, so people outside of the US have to add import ontop of the MSRP.

 

Schiit Valhalla 2 (tube amp) EU= 379€ US= $349

This is another good tube amp from Schiit, it offers great audio quality for the price, it has a maximum output of 180mW at 50 Ohm which is often more than enough, but at 300 Ohm it has a maximum output of 800mW. It is very clean and detailed with good staging. It pairs well with high impedance headphones.

 

 

Little Labs Monotor EU= 589€ US= $540

This amp is a new'ish entry to the neutral market of headphone amps, in testing I found it to be a fairly impressive amp for the price. It offers a low output impedance which means it will work well with headphones that have a low impedance, since the 8th rule is easy to follow with this amp. It is from my testing neck and neck with the Meier Audio Corda Classic. Great if you have a small home studio or something similar.

 

 

Meier Audio Corda Classic EU= 595€ US= $575

If you are looking for a very analytical and neutral amp then this is the amp to get, I have yet to hear a single amp under 1200$ that offer this kind of neutrallity. It is made with very high quality parts that you ussually don't see in this budget that often and it offers two inputs, so you can hook it up to two different DACs if you desiere to do so. If this matters to you then you should know it is made by a guy in Germany. Keep in mind that he gives discounts when you come over a certain price and world-wide shipping is included in the price. I wouldn't recommend getting this if you are looking for a warm sound.

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My recommendations for desktop DACs:

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Schiit Modi 2 Uber EU= 165€  US= $150

This is a entry level DAC with USB, Toslink SPDIF and Coaxial inputs, it offers a good quality bump over onboard, but it cannot compete with higher end DACs when it comes to detail and precision, this is for most people all that they need. It can also only connect to one amp at a time via RCA. It has a bit of the "thick" lows that some schiit DACs have. It is a bit clearner sounding than the none Uber model and it also needs a wall outlet unlike the none Uber.

 

Meier Audio Corda DACCORD EU= 645€ US= $705

Not sure where to start with this one. It is very clean sounding, no added bass, no added highs, great separation, amazing blacks, good width and a superb crossfeed filter. I can't really say anything bad about it for the price. It has Coaxial, Optical and USB, so you have a wide range of options when it comes to connecting it to your own system and it has both a fixed output and a variable output, so you can control the volume of powered monitors with it. This is IMO really how a DAC should sound when we hit this price range. Keep in mind that he gives discounts when you come over a certain price and world-wide shipping is included in the price.

 

Soekris DAC1321 EU= 612,5€ US=$559

This is the best cheap R2R DAC that I have heard in a while. If you want to try a R2R DAC, but you don't want to spend the likes of $1000 or more, then I highly recommend trying the Soekris DAC 1321. The detail level is high and it has some natural warmth to its sound. It shares its sound characteristics with its bigger siblings, but it comes in at a lower price. The blacks are amazing for a R2R DAC and it has a good width. It also doesn't lack connections with its 3 digital inputs, you can use it with USB, S/PDIF or Coaxial.

 

Rotel RDD-1580 EU= 800€ US= $800

This is a do it all kind of DAC, it has six inputs which include digital coaxial, optical toslink and USB, plus it has bluetooth so you can stream the music from your phone to it. It hits a good balance between features and sound, while still being made very well. It offers stereo balanced out and unbalanced RCA out.

 

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My recommendations for desktop Combos:

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Schiit Fulla 2  EU= 99€ US= $99

Pretty much the best combo you can get for 99$ or 99€, more than powerful for a lot of headphones, while still having high audio quality like the rest of Schiit products. If you don't NEED the power of a Schiit stack, then get this one. It only has a single USB input.

 

 

Monoprice Desktop Amp EU=?? US= $70-80

A competitor to the Fulla 2, but you should only use it with high impedance headphones, since the output impedance is 10 ohm, which is pretty high. The performance is solid for its price. It also has Pre out for powered speakers and line out so you can hook it up to a different amp and purely use it as a DAC, though I don't recommend doing this.

 

 

Audio-GD NFB-11.28

This one is a bit harder to get your hands on, but it is worth it. It has a very transparent sound with a lot of detail and offers a lot of power.

It has USB, optical and coaxial inputs. It just got upgraded with a Sabre 9028, instead of a 9018 and some other small upgrades.

You can buy from them directly here for 330$ (without shipping), if you are in EU then I have found it here for 409€ (without shipping)

 

 

Dangerous Music Source EU= 1100€ US=$800

Quite a nice combo for the price, with features that some might not need. It offers a very clean sound with a good amount of detail for the price and it is perfect for the guy that wants to control his powered speakers. You have separate controls for headphones and speakers. If you are looking for a combo that can do it all and have the money for this, then give it a look, if you don't need the extra features and so on, then maybe look into some of the separate DACs and amps on this thread.

 

 

Soekris 1541 EU = 1562,5€ US= $1425

For the same or about the same price as the Gungnir Multibit you can get this combo and it beats the Gungnir multi in every single aspect except stagning and you also get a fairly good amp. It has different filters that actually change the sound and it has both balanced and unbalanced output to headphones and both balanced and unbalanced pre-output that you can use to hook it up to another amp or to active speakers. If this is too expensive and you don't need balanced out for powered monitors or headphones and you are willing to take a small hit in detail retrival then the Soekris 1421 might just be for you.

 

 

Crane Song Solaris EU= 2138€ US= $1950

In many ways this would be the direct upgrade from the ADI 2 DAC, but it has less features. You won't get things like a IEM output or a EQ, but what you do get is a even cleaner sound and even more detailed sound. I wouldn't recommend this for the average user, but rather someone that has a home studio or wants a very uncolored sound that will show flaws in the music. 

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My recommendations for small Combos that run on usb only:

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Fiio k1 EU= 50€ US= $40 (on sale)
Only look at this if you need something really cheap. I would only get this if your onboard is broken.

 

 

LH Labs GO2A US= $299

Small DAC and amp unit that is good if you want to have a DAC and amp with you when you use your laptop.

 

 

My recommendations for DAPs (Digital audio players)

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Sony NW-A40 series (A45, A46 and A47)

This is for the more budget minded person. This series is great for anyone that want to get better audio quality on the go, but don't want to pay upwards of 500$. They are only unbalanced, but for their price they offer a good amount of detail with a overall natural sound to them.

 

 

Sony NW-ZX300

The little brother to the WM1A, but don't let that fool you it is a very capable DAP, like its bigger brother the WM1A it also have a unbalanced and a balanced output. It can't compete with the WM1A when it comes to detail and overall audio quality, but for its price it is a amazing DAP with a lot of detail and spacious sound. It also runs Sony's own OS and like its bigger brother it also offers Bluetooth

 

 

Sony NW-WM1A

Amazing DAP, it offers unbalanced and balanced output to headphones and it is very well known for offering very high audio quality with a lot of detail and is generally looked upon as the go to high end DAP. It does not have Wifi like some other DAPs, but it does have Bluetooth and the OS is not android, but rather Sony's own OS. 

 

 

Cowon Plenue D

This is one beutiful DAP both in looks and sound. If you want a small DAP for not a lot of money, but still want good audio quality then look no further. It is a very well respected DAP and for a good reason, it doesn't get much better in this price range, but it recently got some tough competistion from Sony's A40 seires. This is however a DAP with a touch screen.

 

I have seen way too many different prices on these DAPs to really set a range, but the Sony DAPs are set up so the cheapest ones are at the top. The Cowon is usually priced pretty similar to a Sony NW-A45.

 

 

This list could use a bit of updating. 

[Zairros17]

Hello... i want to buy Massdrop x Beyerdynamic DT 177X Go , anyone have tried it before ? If not i want some recommendations for portable AMP&DAC & DAP , i want to get maximum quality from that headphone , thanks 

[rice guru]

On 9/24/2020 at 7:52 PM, Zairros17 said:

Hello... i want to buy Massdrop x Beyerdynamic DT 177X Go , anyone have tried it before ? If not i want some recommendations for portable AMP&DAC & DAP , i want to get maximum quality from that headphone , thanks 

You don't really need one the 177x go is really easy to drive but if you want one regardless the fiio btr5 is excellent I use one daily for work.  DAP wise what is your budget?

[Zairros17]

4 hours ago, rice guru said:

You don't really need one the 177x go is really easy to drive but if you want one regardless the fiio btr5 is excellent I use one daily for work.  DAP wise what is your budget?

My Budget for DAP is 500-700$ , oh yeah and i need some speaker recommendations , want to upgrade from Audioengine A2+ , And DAC+Ampli for desktop 

[eskamobob1]

To preface this question, I'm very new into audio gear.

 

It seems from watching YouTube reviews that the A90S is basicaly the kink point in price/performance of solid state headphone amps with anything better than it being litteraly multiple times the price (if this is wrong tell me, I'm just going off youtube reviews).

 

Is there a similar product for dacs? For some reason I just can't seem to find as many dac reviews as I can amp (except for darkos speaker pre-amp/amp reviews)

[geo3]

9 hours ago, eskamobob1 said:

To preface this question, I'm very new into audio gear.

 

It seems from watching YouTube reviews that the A90S is basicaly the kink point in price/performance of solid state headphone amps with anything better than it being litteraly multiple times the price (if this is wrong tell me, I'm just going off youtube reviews).

 

Is there a similar product for dacs? For some reason I just can't seem to find as many dac reviews as I can amp (except for darkos speaker pre-amp/amp reviews)

Are you referring to the Topping A90? The only thing I could find for A90S as far as amps was an Alpine speaker amp for cars. 

 

If so, the DAC counterpart would be the D90. However if you're new to audio gear I'd recommend not going that high. Go for an E30 + L30 stack instead (also from Topping) as you very likely wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

 

Instead spend what you save on better headphones. The 2 most impactful bits of the chain are the very ends, so source(MP3/FLAC files or streaming service) and output, (speakers or headphones).

[eskamobob1]

56 minutes ago, geo3 said:

Are you referring to the Topping A90? The only thing I could find for A90S as far as amps was an Alpine speaker amp for cars. 

 

If so, the DAC counterpart would be the D90. However if you're new to audio gear I'd recommend not going that high. Go for an E30 + L30 stack instead (also from Topping) as you very likely wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

 

Instead spend what you save on better headphones. The 2 most impactful bits of the chain are the very ends, so source(MP3/FLAC files or streaming service) and output, (speakers or headphones).

Yes I am. Sorry. 'A90S' is a term from another hobby that I mixed up here. Fwiw, Im not looking to buy any of this. Its very much so just a curious question from me. I get the D90 is what goes with the A90 from factory, but all the reviews of the D90 dont seem to hold it in the same regard as the A90 which is (or at least seems to be) basically being better than everything else even twice it price. 

[geo3]

3 hours ago, eskamobob1 said:

Yes I am. Sorry. 'A90S' is a term from another hobby that I mixed up here. Fwiw, Im not looking to buy any of this. Its very much so just a curious question from me. I get the D90 is what goes with the A90 from factory, but all the reviews of the D90 dont seem to hold it in the same regard as the A90 which is (or at least seems to be) basically being better than everything else even twice it price. 

Yeah, that's because the point of diminishing returns happens a lot sooner for DACs than for amps. 

[eskamobob1]

11 hours ago, geo3 said:

Yeah, that's because the point of diminishing returns happens a lot sooner for DACs than for amps. 

You know, when I couldn't find what the inflection point of diminishing returns was, I just assumed it was super high up not even lower down. Mind if I as where you think that point is?

[geo3]

7 hours ago, eskamobob1 said:

You know, when I couldn't find what the inflection point of diminishing returns was, I just assumed it was super high up not even lower down. Mind if I as where you think that point is?

Different people will have different opinions on that depending on how good their ears are.

And it also depends on what difference you think that inflection point should make. Does it mean anything more is indistinguishable or are you just looking for the point where something would be considered 'good enough'. 

 

For me, and I think most people, we would have a lot of trouble even distinguishing a $100 DAC to anything way more expensive. For amps I'd say 400+ is where it becomes hard to distinguish. 

 

Though for some that point could be a lot lower. I could envision a sub $20 DAC being "good enough" for most. As where I would not trust an amp anywhere near that cheep. $100 amp is the cheapest I'd personally put on my desk. 

 

So reviewing what I just wrote I guess you can say (for me at least) $100 is where DACs will top out and where amps bottom out. 

 

 

 

This is of course ignoring 'colored' amps and DACs which intentionally mess with the signal. We're also ignoring the crazy audiophile crowd will swear need a $20K stack and they can hear the difference in the cables and power supplies they use.  

[eskamobob1]

Quote

This is of course ignoring 'colored' amps and DACs which intentionally mess with the signal. We're also ignoring the crazy audiophile crowd will swear need a $20K stack and they can hear the difference in the cables and power supplies they use.  

Thats a good point. I was specifically talking about linear amps and clean dacs since color starts to be a completely subjective topic

 

16 hours ago, geo3 said:

Different people will have different opinions on that depending on how good their ears are.

And it also depends on what difference you think that inflection point should make. Does it mean anything more is indistinguishable or are you just looking for the point where something would be considered 'good enough'. 

Really what I'm curious about is the point at which whatever, say sub $600, headphones you throw at it will not be held back by the dac/amp.

Quote

For me, and I think most people, we would have a lot of trouble even distinguishing a $100 DAC to anything way more expensive. For amps I'd say 400+ is where it becomes hard to distinguish. 

So, basically, past the best $100 dacs, you basically just get features is your feel? As for the amps, I'm assuming that $400 line is the THX AAA amps (generally at least), correct?

 

Thanks for taking the time to answer my curious questions btw. Honestly, I know nothing about audiophile stuff, but I ordered pandas because they seem to be the best BT headphone w/o anc, and watching zeno's review sent me down a massive, massive rabbit hole starting about a week ago. Not planning on ordering any audiophile shit until I see my take on how big of a difference (to me) the pandas make vs cheap headphones I use now for music enjoyment (I have high expectations given how awesome XM3s sounded and they are apparently trash in the audiophile world)

[geo3]

10 minutes ago, eskamobob1 said:

Really what I'm curious about is the point at which whatever, say sub $600, headphones you throw at it will not be held back by the dac/amp.

If you have $600 headphones I'd say don't spend more than that on a DAC + amp. You will 'notice' the money spent on the sound quality more so in the headphones than in anything else. Ability to distinguish the differences in equipment can not only depend on your ears, but also the headphones you use as well. I personally have a Schiit Magni 3 and Heresy and a collection of a few headphones and IEMs in the $200 to $400 range. Though if I were buying today I'd likely go with the Topping L30 and E30 which didn't exist yet when I was building my setup.  I, for example can tell the difference between my current stack and my old Fulla 2 using AKG K712s. The base has more body and warmth on the new stuff. As where with my Sony CD900st studio monitors, which are significantly easier to drive, the 2 amps sound the same. 

11 minutes ago, eskamobob1 said:

So, basically, past the best $100 dacs, you basically just get features is your feel?

Yes. One of the big features you will see on more expensive equipment is balanced output. So 2 conductors per channel instead of the 1 per + shared ground. This is less susceptible to interference and some people feel you can hear better stereo separation.  With DACs specifically you will get various inputs, format support, EQs and filters.  With amps you will get better volume controls (ones that ensure both channels are equally attenuated) 

11 minutes ago, eskamobob1 said:

As for the amps, I'm assuming that $400 line is the THX AAA amps (generally at least), correct?

Yeah, and there's a couple others in that range as well, like that A90 which is just a bit more. 

11 minutes ago, eskamobob1 said:

Thanks for taking the time to answer my curious questions btw. Honestly, I know nothing about audiophile stuff, but I ordered pandas because they seem to be the best BT headphone w/o anc, and watching zeno's review sent me down a massive, massive rabbit hole starting about a week ago. Not planning on ordering any audiophile shit until I see my take on how big of a difference (to me) the pandas make vs cheap headphones I use now for music enjoyment (I have high expectations given how awesome XM3s sounded and they are apparently trash in the audiophile world)

Sure. And keep in mind this is all highly subjective. 

[eskamobob1]

10 minutes ago, geo3 said:

If you have $600 headphones I'd say don't spend more than that on a DAC + amp. You will 'notice' the money spent on the sound quality more so in the headphones than in anything else.

That sounds like a reasonable price breakdown. 

Quote

Ability to distinguish the differences in equipment can not only depend on your ears, but also the headphones you use as well. I personally have a Schiit Magni 3 and Heresy and a collection of a few headphones and IEMs in the $200 to $400 range. Though if I were buying today I'd likely go with the Topping L30 and E30 which didn't exist yet when I was building my setup.  I, for example can tell the difference between my current stack and my old Fulla 2 using AKG K712s. The base has more body and warmth on the new stuff. As where with my Sony CD900st studio monitors, which are significantly easier to drive, the 2 amps sound the same. 

Thats a good point to keep in mind. TBH, the reason my questions realy came up is because I was watching some headphone reviews and all of the ones under $400 or so that people rave about the soundstage and imaging of (argons, 880 600ohm, P2s) are also said to be hard as hell to drive, so I was curious what was really necessary to be able to take full advantage of stuff like that

Quote

Yes. One of the big features you will see on more expensive equipment is balanced output.

If I am being dead honest, I kinda thought balanced was just a given once you passed like $200/set headphones (especially since the 789 seems to be designed specifically for balanced as opposed to just having it as an option)

Quote

With DACs specifically you will get various inputs, format support, EQs and filters. With amps you will get better volume controls (ones that ensure both channels are equally attenuated)

Well format support was not something I thought about at all. That will be something important to keep in mind if I do go further than just the pandas. 

Quote

Yeah, and there's a couple others in that range as well, like that A90 which is just a bit more. 

Good to know.

Quote

Sure. And keep in mind this is all highly subjective.

Will do. Ultimately its all about finding a sound you like for certain music after all. One last question (outside the scope of this thread though). Do you personally think there is any reason to scale file quality past what something like tidal offers? TBQH, I just love the convenience of streaming, but all the audiophile youtubers seem to build up their own massive libraries outside of streaming services so I was wondering if it actually makes much of a difference.

[geo3]

On 12/10/2020 at 2:27 PM, eskamobob1 said:

One last question (outside the scope of this thread though). Do you personally think there is any reason to scale file quality past what something like tidal offers? TBQH, I just love the convenience of streaming, but all the audiophile youtubers seem to build up their own massive libraries outside of streaming services so I was wondering if it actually makes much of a difference.

I've not used streaming services too much so I don't know what they offer. Try finding a song you know well that is a quality recording and compare the streamed version to FLAC and high bit rate MP3 and see if you can tell a difference. 

[eskamobob1]

On 12/11/2020 at 7:09 PM, geo3 said:

I've not used streaming services too much so I don't know what they offer. Try finding a song you know well that is a quality recording and compare the streamed version to FLAC and high bit rate MP3 and see if you can tell a difference. 

Nah bro. Thats a far too logical thing to try when i can just ask rando's on the internet......... But yah, good call. I havent bought any music in fucking years, but I guess I'll see if any of the artists I like have igh quality masters for sale anywhere.

[CoolMarquis97]

Just got the PC38X headset and am looking to pair it with a DAC but there are just so many options. Should I go with a X3? G6? Fulla 3? Hel? Just trying to get a bit more volume and clean up some microphone crackle that I think is due to my B450 Tomahawk. 

[rice guru]

On 2/17/2021 at 2:49 PM, CoolMarquis97 said:

Just got the PC38X headset and am looking to pair it with a DAC but there are just so many options. Should I go with a X3? G6? Fulla 3? Hel? Just trying to get a bit more volume and clean up some microphone crackle that I think is due to my B450 Tomahawk. 

The g6 is pretty nice an reliable. I would go for that over the fulla. The hel actually sounds pretty great though just kinda overkill.

[Guest]

What do you guys recommend for a setup if I want both speakers and a desktop DAC/amp? 

 

I know that some headphone amps have preamp out--I'm assuming I could then hook RCA from that to powered speakers? And the sound would come out of both, so I could just switch on the speakers when I wanted speaker out instead of headphone out.

 

Any specific DAC/amps to recommend? It doesn't have to be an all-in-one; I'm fine with two units. 

[TheNFactor]

On 2/22/2021 at 1:49 PM, Kylan275 said:

What do you guys recommend for a setup if I want both speakers and a desktop DAC/amp? 

 

I know that some headphone amps have preamp out--I'm assuming I could then hook RCA from that to powered speakers? And the sound would come out of both, so I could just switch on the speakers when I wanted speaker out instead of headphone out.

 

Any specific DAC/amps to recommend? It doesn't have to be an all-in-one; I'm fine with two units. 

I'd look into the topping mx3 and topping dx3. They're combo dac/headphone amp/speaker amps. They're great if you want to get into the budget headphone and powered speaker game.

[AlphaHari]

@SSL @Dackzy

Very impresive thread. It's making me want to read from beginning till the end.

Currently i was looking for DAC/Amp, the option between Fiio K3 and usb dragonfly black.

My current motherboard is ga-78lmt-usb3 which have Realtek ALC 892 Codec.

Does using DAC/Amp will improve quality sound?

I read at old post that DAC/Amp will not improve quality sound onboard. Because there is a lot of information in web, making me confuse which is....

 

I am using headphone Sony MDR-1Am2 and speaker Altec Lansing VS2621. Mainly focus to listen music at Qobuz, playing FPS game like R6s. Does using DAC/Amp will improve hearing position at FPS game and improve neutral sound when listening Qobuz music?

 

Need advice and i am noob regarding sound :) 

Also i read this thread that schiit have very impressive DAC/Amp but in my country there is none and the price is 3-4x times in online market.