Linus: Reflowing is WRONG, from Louis Rossmann

[LinusShillTips]

 

 

[beebskadoo]

what linus did was completely different. Mobile chips, especially on the defective Macbooks of old go bad because of bad engineering, whatever caused Linus' card to go bad caused it not to display which could be just about anything on that card but the GPU itself wasn't apparently the issue. it's different in my opinion BUT regardless of what Louis says in the video, time will tell if it works to fix the card, hopefully Linus keeps us up to date if it actually fixed the card.

[LinusShillTips]

1 minute ago, beebskadoo said:

He is mainly talking about mobile chips in this video, what linus did was completely different. Mobile chips, especially on the defective Macbooks of old go bad because of bad engineering, whatever caused Linus' card to go bad caused it not to display which could be just about anything on that card but the GPU itself wasn't apparently the issue. it's different.

The video was aimed directly as a response to Linus' video. Boards don't go bad from "bad engineering", single components of the boards die and can be replaced or supplemented.

[beebskadoo]

Just now, LinusShillTips said:

The video was aimed directly as a response to Linus' video. Boards don't go bad from "bad engineering", single components of the boards die and can be replaced or supplemented.

Well regardless of what the video says, time will tell to see if Linus' card still works. Time will tell. Also the fact that you joined this forum just to post this topic is funny but what is even more interesting is your username. Keep doing the lords work lonely internet keyboard warrior, one day your try hard attitude will pay off  

[LinusShillTips]

4 minutes ago, beebskadoo said:

Well regardless of what the video says, time will tell to see if Linus' card still works. Time will tell. Also the fact that you joined this forum just to post this topic is funny but what is even more interesting is your username. Keep doing the lords work lonely internet keyboard warrior, one day your try hard attitude will pay off  

> Well regardless of what the video says

Stop right here: you didn't watch the video before your first reply. Because you clearly didn't know that Louis was referring directly to Linus' video, it means you didn't even take a few seconds to watch the beginning. Now, stop again, because you replied less than 10 minutes AFTER I responded to you and the video is 13 minutes long.

> but what is even more interesting is your username

Because I don't trust Linus' reviews on products that I personally have and think are utter garbage for their price. Examples being: Razer Siren, LG 34" curved, Blue Yeti

> Keep doing the lords work lonely internet keyboard warrior, one day your try hard attitude will pay off  
 

I'm actually a member of this community already but chose to make a new account to remain anonymous.

[beebskadoo]

Just now, LinusShillTips said:

> Well regardless of what the video says

Stop right here: you didn't watch the video before your first reply.

> but what is even more interesting is your username

Because I don't trust Linus' reviews on products that I personally have and think are utter garbage for their price.

I did watch it during my reply, I made the mistake of assuming it was one of Louis' previous videos when he was talking about reflowing the defective macbook so that's my bad. There is a difference in offering this as a full proof solution and offering it as a temporary solution, Linus didn't say that people SHOULD do this, it was just a video he made that is quite interesting and not meant to permanently fix anything.

 

Also about your products that you own, i'm sorry you aren't satisfied with them but I hardly believe that it's his fault, in fact he reviews the same products that a lot of other reviewers do so don't forget to blame them too.

[NickTheMajin]

I honestly was not a fan of Linus doing that video. He has a very young audience that takes anything someone they trust says, for gospel. Hence why you see so many people spouting the nonsense that you have to put thermal compound on a certain way or you ruin your PC or that you can't build on the anti static bag, or that you have to plug the PSU in but leave it off to be grounded while building a PC and dumb shit like that. They heard a tech channel say it once and its ingrained in their memory. 

 

It was an enjoyable video to watch, but even with Linus's disclaimers people are going to do this and ruin their shit. Like Louis said, many of these things are fixable but if you stick it in an oven you are "skull fucking it to death" to the point where it might work for a few days or weeks but will inevitably die. 

 

It's like when the 360 was red ringing left and right. Everyone said to do the fucking towel trick and tens of thousands of people did it with thousands of youtube videos and guides everywhere telling people to do it. Literally a temporary fix that fucked your warranty. I heard of no stories where the towel trick lasted more than a month. 

[AllWheelsDrifting]

I don't want to get caught up in this and all because i haven't watched Louis' video, but the only reason he does it is because they're review samples. He also clearly states that it will void your warranty. So while I do know some dumb teen is gonna do it and f*ck up and then blame him, is it his fault? (IMO its not)

[diapersarefullofshit]

Rule #1: You do not talk about burnclub!

Rule #2: You do not talk about burnclub!

 

 

[TheWoollyMammoth]

Well, someone's mad.

[You_are_a_cunt]

I've been reflowing and reballing components for near 15 years now.

It's not a permanent fix by any stretch of the imagination, and Linus made that perfectly clear. It's a temporary fix until a replacement can be obtained or a more permanent solution is found.

 

The Xbox 360 is a perfect example of bad engineering when it comes to solder joints popping due to using unleaded solder.

 

99.9% of modern PCBs are populated by machines that require strict supervision and a plethora of factors can cause them to mess up something, from solder quality to component quality.

[neebuilda]

3 hours ago, NickTheMajin said:

or that you can't build on the anti static bag

There is no reason to build on an anti-static bag. The kind with the grey/black lines all over the outside are designed to be conductive on the outside, so whilst it probably wont kill anything, its not exactly the best thing to do.

 

[Godlygamer23]

4 hours ago, LinusShillTips said:

The video was aimed directly as a response to Linus' video. Boards don't go bad from "bad engineering", single components of the boards die and can be replaced or supplemented.

If the components are poorly soldered, that will affect the lifetime - for example, leaving flux residue on a solder joint. 

[Kinda Bottlenecked]

6 minutes ago, Godlygamer23 said:

If the components are poorly soldered, that will affect the lifetime - for example, leaving flux residue on a solder joint. 

 

Wouldn't the soldering part be from bad manufacturing or something? 

[Godlygamer23]

13 minutes ago, Pohernori said:

Wouldn't the soldering part be from bad manufacturing or something? 

Yes, but it also depends on people who use "bad engineering." Are they referring to actual engineering or the manufacturing process, or both?  

 

Regardless, if the components do not have enough solder applied, as in the case of a chip, the joints could break - solder really isn't that strong, especially on tiny solder joints. 

[Qyoon]

5 hours ago, LinusShillTips said:

 

 

 Chill... linus said , if your card is under warranty , you should return it , and put it in a oven ONLY if it's dead and you have no other solution.

So basicly , it's try before you trash... so i don't know what you are so fucking mad at it...

You seems more mad because those people don't bring their hardware to you for being fixed than anything else.

[Kinda Bottlenecked]

Just now, Godlygamer23 said:

Yes, but it also depends on people who use "bad engineering." Are they referring to actual engineering or the manufacturing process, or both?  

 

Regardless, if the components do not have enough solder applied, as in the case of a chip, the joints could break - solder really isn't that strong, especially on tiny solder joints. 

 

Not sure how OP wants to use it. But whenever soldering is mentioned I only picture the manufacturing process 

[Denned]

I think the problem is that, your average dudes doesn't know anything about chip designs. And doesn't know anyone who would know. So even if it's only 10-20% chance for fix it by heating it up, it could still be the only way to fix it. (that they know of).

 

When you happen to have the knowledge about a cirtain subject, it's easy to think those who don't know better, are idiots. I happen to know a few things about car detailing and washing. So seeing people not taking care of their paintwork, also bugs the living shit out of me. I don't blame them, it's easy to see why they wouldn't know better..

[TheWoollyMammoth]

5 hours ago, LinusShillTips said:

The video was aimed directly as a response to Linus' video. Boards don't go bad from "bad engineering", single components of the boards die and can be replaced or supplemented.

Umm, yes they do. Not always, there are a bunch of reasons for them to go bad, but bad engineering is one.

 

Let's use the Macbook '15 as a prime example. Under heavy load it throttles like mofo. There will be excessive heat inside and it will damage the device at some point. That is bad engineering.

[Godlygamer23]

Just now, Denned said:

When you happen to have the knowledge about a cirtain subject, it's easy to think those who don't know better, are idiots.

Ignorance does not necessarily mean idiocy. It just means the person doesn't know any better - that being said, people can be considered stupid when it comes to knowledge about things such as computers, soldering, car washing, etc. 

[Heesleemer]

Louis' video does raise legitimate cause for concern. I would love for someone at linus media to actually address the issue head on, and be transparent about when that 680 will die again. 

[Albert Song]

Louis's point is, it's just not about soldering. The oven isn't even hot enough to melt it, it just melts the adhesive.

[l.a.rossmann]

A few things to clarify

 

1) I am not using the word idiot here to describe Linus. My irritation is not that he's an idiot, but rather that someone tech savvy made a video without doing the same amount of research that goes into these other videos. I do not expect the average person to understand the difference between different BGA constructions, which is why I suggested researching it. People get mad at me for the same thing, and it's something I didn't think about much because in my head, my channel still has an audience of three people... the idea that at some point, I kinda have a responsibility to make sure that what I'm saying is "not terribly wrong." I feel like that responsibility, the bar, is a little higher for someone with almost 100x as large a subscriberbase. 

 

2) Boards constantly die from bad engineering. On the Apple side, there's C9560 in the A1286 2010, C7771 in the A1286 2008-2009, there's all sorts of random pieces that aren't right for the job that die on the boards just because it's the wrong part for the job. The issue is that when heated, these half dead components will work again. Often they are in close proximity to the MCP or GPU,which people will heat with a heatgun because of these videos. Regardless of the disclaimer, it is what occurs; I get enough of it to know. 

 

By the time I get to replacing the actual failed component, it's too late. Everything else was heated to the point where something else is dead that will be more difficult, if not impossible, to replace/repair. It's sad.  

 

3) Albert's post is an excellent representation of a flip chip BGA. There were some sites that actually cut these open and showed you what a good chip vs. a bad chip looked like under a $5000 microscope, but they're down and all that's available are cached text only renderings of bad English descriptions.

 

4) My primary issue is that, in our field, we are all seen as hacks. On the Apple Community Support forums, someone had a charging issue. My friend, Jessa Jones, who has spent the last three years of her life figuring out exactly how those phone boards tick wrote an excellent post on troubleshooting from lint in the charge port, missing inductor near the battery connector, to using an ampmeter to determine if the U2 IC was working correctly which controls charging. Her post was deleted because they do not allow any third party repair - at all - to post suggestions on their forum. Even when those people offering advice are offering advice with no link back to their business, with no business name in their username.

We didn't reach that state overnight, we reached the level of consumer distrust we're at because of what we have done in the past. From the TV technicians in the 70s and 80s that decided to repair hi-fi amplifiers without matching beta value between transistors in parallel to people heatgunning dead HP GPUs in the mid 2000s to this, there are so many reasons for consumers to believe we are clueless and undeserving of any trust. I want to get rid of that, and it doesn't help when someone with 2.4 million subscribers continues to promote a myth that began with NVIDIA's F'd up 52xx series chips 12 years ago in 2016.

Linus has a great platform and a huge fanbase. I would love to see this used to educate people on what's actually going on, rather than to continue spreading a myth that the minority have been working their ass off for ten years to get rid of, for the sake of our industry's credibility. 

[.:MARK:.]

2 hours ago, l.a.rossmann said:

--

I'm glad you pointed this out as I have noticed that the recent LTT videos have been rushed and done without research. And you'll get the fans on here who defend him no matter what, saying things like, "it's comedy", "it's like TopGear". But what they don't seem to understand is when you have a large subscriber count and use words like "science" as you pointed out, or present videos in a more instructional format, It has to be properly researched. You shouldn't try to teach something that you saw on the internet and thought, "that's cool! I'll make a video on how to do this!", but don't fully understand yourself.

[LinusTech]

2 hours ago, l.a.rossmann said:

A few things to clarify

 

1) I am not using the word idiot here to describe Linus. My irritation is not that he's an idiot, but rather that someone tech savvy made a video without doing the same amount of research that goes into these other videos. I do not expect the average person to understand the difference between different BGA constructions, which is why I suggested researching it. People get mad at me for the same thing, and it's something I didn't think about much because in my head, my channel still has an audience of three people... the idea that at some point, I kinda have a responsibility to make sure that what I'm saying is "not terribly wrong." I feel like that responsibility, the bar, is a little higher for someone with almost 100x as large a subscriberbase. 

 

2) Boards constantly die from bad engineering. On the Apple side, there's C9560 in the A1286 2010, C7771 in the A1286 2008-2009, there's all sorts of random pieces that aren't right for the job that die on the boards just because it's the wrong part for the job. The issue is that when heated, these half dead components will work again. Often they are in close proximity to the MCP or GPU,which people will heat with a heatgun because of these videos. Regardless of the disclaimer, it is what occurs; I get enough of it to know. 

 

By the time I get to replacing the actual failed component, it's too late. Everything else was heated to the point where something else is dead that will be more difficult, if not impossible, to replace/repair. It's sad.  

 

3) Albert's post is an excellent representation of a flip chip BGA. There were some sites that actually cut these open and showed you what a good chip vs. a bad chip looked like under a $5000 microscope, but they're down and all that's available are cached text only renderings of bad English descriptions.

 

4) My primary issue is that, in our field, we are all seen as hacks. On the Apple Community Support forums, someone had a charging issue. My friend, Jessa Jones, who has spent the last three years of her life figuring out exactly how those phone boards tick wrote an excellent post on troubleshooting from lint in the charge port, missing inductor near the battery connector, to using an ampmeter to determine if the U2 IC was working correctly which controls charging. Her post was deleted because they do not allow any third party repair - at all - to post suggestions on their forum. Even when those people offering advice are offering advice with no link back to their business, with no business name in their username.

We didn't reach that state overnight, we reached the level of consumer distrust we're at because of what we have done in the past. From the TV technicians in the 70s and 80s that decided to repair hi-fi amplifiers without matching beta value between transistors in parallel to people heatgunning dead HP GPUs in the mid 2000s to this, there are so many reasons for consumers to believe we are clueless and undeserving of any trust. I want to get rid of that, and it doesn't help when someone with 2.4 million subscribers continues to promote a myth that began with NVIDIA's F'd up 52xx series chips 12 years ago in 2016.

Linus has a great platform and a huge fanbase. I would love to see this used to educate people on what's actually going on, rather than to continue spreading a myth that the minority have been working their ass off for ten years to get rid of, for the sake of our industry's credibility. 

Good point. I'll freely admit you've forgotten more about solder and flux than I'll ever know.

 

But with that said, I have to wonder why - if your goal is to educate - the response was to create a video that I can't feasibly promote in any way versus giving me something that I can insert with a video card or annotation explaining more clearly why what I did worked, and why it won't last very long.

 

I'm not difficult to get in touch with. My email is posted publicly on my YouTube channel.

 

That might be a better way to get in contact in the future.

 

Incidentally the 780 Ti *is* still working, but hasn't been used heavily as it's just a test bench card, and I felt like I did make it quite clear in the video that this is a last ditch effort and doesn't always work (it is literally demonstrated in the video that it doesn't always work).