Windows 10 proven to spy on users, regardless of settings or system tweaks.

[LAwLz]

Says the now "official expert" on the matter, how about you stop flooding this thread with your "expert" information. But what do I know right? I am a total noob that doesn't have "basic understanding" of what they are. I better leave that to the "pros" like you that know everything about the matter and only you guys have the last word. Eeeveryone else is just wrong, congrats.

 

I know this is a discussion that'd never end... don't know why I participate, maybe I'm bored right now.

Well you did show that you don't understand what the host file is and what purpose it serves, so I thought I'd explain it to you. I'm not claiming to be an expert, although I am studying to become one.

 

 

 

I simply disagree with most of your post, including that article. Until I see someone arrested for handling a lobster, and put in jail (and it will be documented by the news, and we will hear about it) I think that is just a pointless argument.

I think you were missing my point. I wasn't trying to say "oh now everyone will get arrested for minor crimes". I used that statistic to show that nobody is innocent, regardless of how good of a citizen you think you are. Everyone has some info that could be used against them even if you don't realize it. The Miranda warning does not joke when it says that "anything said can and will be used against you in a court of law". It is why the fifth amendment is so incredibly important (

).

 

 

Here's the thing. The United States is MUCH different than a ton of countries around the world. If the government attempts something really shady, that is at the cost of a lot of people, it won't work.

PRISM seem to have worked pretty well so far. It was something like 13 years before we got a big leak showing what the NSA and other government agencies were up to in detail. Before that people who thought they were doing illegal things (and yes, some of the things done by for example the NSA has been against the law) were called tinfoil hat wearers.

 

 

And on top of all of that, we have due process. Fortunately, If a jury believes that a crime is absolutely bonkers, and makes no sense, we have jury nullification.

Not everyone get a jury, and the justice system is not always fair. In this case, the judge didn't like that people "meet, have sex, sayonara", and it appears like he took his personal feelings into account when he gave the ruling.

 

 

The rest of your post is just the same old "you aren't being spied on. Got nothing to fear if you got nothing to hide" again. We have been over this again and again. That argument might have worked a few years ago, but with the current mass surveillance such as PRISM we have very solid evidence that everyone is interesting enough to allocate resources for monitoring.

[LAwLz]

Come on man. You're really, really grasping here.

How am I grapsing at straws? I posted the definition of spyware from several sources and I think it is very reasonable to say that Windows 10 in fact fits the definitions very well.

[Colonel_Gerdauf]

You might not have noticed this, but I very rarely make my own threads. The reason I am currently attacking Microsoft so much is because those are the threads I see when I visit LTT.

How many threads have you seen about Cisco on the front page recently? I have seen 0, which is why I haven't posted about them.

There is no "selective reasoning" involved. Actually, I was giving Facebook and Google shit in the post you were responding to, but you seem to conveniently missed that part.

 

 

Why do you always being up "fancy latin terms" whenever you talk to me? I sometimes use them because they describe logical fallacies. It's easier to just say "that's XXX" instead of "what you are doing right now is a logical fallacy because... an example of why this does not work would be...".

my "fancy latin phrases" are the same as what you did in this post (Gerdauf's Law) and in this post (Hempel's Paradox).

 

 

By the way, you have called me biased multiple times in this thread already. That's essentially the same as calling someone a fanboy.

 

 

People who live in glass houses...

 

You sure do love to dance around the issues of a given topic, don't you?

 

Ok, you were giving flack to Google; is this correct? Then how come when I had brought up the matter to you about the fact that Google collects information without consent (let's not forget, advertising remains the top revenue stream for Google), you have actively defended them? You had told me that since the data collection was written in the ToS, consent was given. At that very thread, you had made a very strong "privacy apologist" impression to most others who were reading. A blatant double-standard.

 

I fail to see how your comparison here is even remotely valid. The Hempel's Paradox was a demonstration of an example, whereas Gerdauf's Law was explicitly stated. The Latin terms you have a knack for using falls into neither category. Terms like "ad hominem" and "ad infinitum" are now greatly overused, get over it!

 

If you make the blanket remark that we all live in a glass house, then frankly you do not even live in a house at all.

[Guest]

unplug the Ethernet cable or wireless adapter and its solved!!  

[Stuff_]

How am I grapsing at straws? I posted the definition of spyware from several sources and I think it is very reasonable to say that Windows 10 in fact fits the definitions very well.

Because then you must also say that every single Google application, Apple application, Amazon et al must also be spyware. 

You are giving Microsoft consent to take some stuff from you. That removes it from being called spyware. 

 

I'm just probably gonna end my debate here. Are you actually from Sweden, as your profile says?

[Kinda Bottlenecked]

Because then you must also say that every single Google application, Apple application, Amazon et al must also be spyware. 

You are giving Microsoft consent to take some stuff from you. That removes it from being called spyware. 

 

I'm just probably gonna end my debate here. Are you actually from Sweden, as your profile says?

 

But they take the data while ignoring user settings, do they actually have consent?

[Stuff_]

But they take the data while ignoring user settings, do they actually have consent?

This has yet to be proven. 

[Kinda Bottlenecked]

This has yet to be proven. 

 

The arstechnica link wasn't enough? 

[Stuff_]

The arstechnica link wasn't enough? 

It wasn't specific enough. Microsoft didn't explain enough. 

It's still in its infancy. Microsoft may or may not be spying. But we can't say yes without a doubt, and Microsoft could still have a legitimate reason for the data being sent over.

[Kinda Bottlenecked]

It wasn't specific enough. Microsoft didn't explain enough. 

It's still in its infancy. Microsoft may or may not be spying. But we can't say yes without a doubt, and Microsoft could still have a legitimate reason for the data being sent over.

 

And data is sent to MS while ignoring some user settings correct? 

[Stuff_]

And data is sent to MS while ignoring some user settings correct? 

Nowhere is there a tick option to disable every bit of data to be sent to Microsoft servers. We're not even sure what exactly is being sent, and it's all assumptions.

 

Therefore you cannot make the claim that they are sending your sensitive data over. You can say maybe, but you cannot confirm it.

[Kinda Bottlenecked]

Nowhere is there a tick option to disable every bit of data to be sent to Microsoft servers. We're not even sure what exactly is being sent, and it's all assumptions.

 

An example in the article is when disabling web search in the start menu, data is being sent to MS whenever you start typing. Doesn't that show one of the user setting

being ignored? 

 

Therefore you cannot make the claim that they are sending your sensitive data over. You can say maybe, but you cannot confirm it.

 

er..... 

 

 

 

But they take the data while ignoring user settings, do they actually have consent?

[LAwLz]

Ok, you were giving flack to Google; is this correct? Then how come when I had brought up the matter to you about the fact that Google collects information without consent (let's not forget, advertising remains the top revenue stream for Google), you have actively defended them? You had told me that since the data collection was written in the ToS, consent was given. At that very thread, you had made a very strong "privacy apologist" impression to most others who were reading. A blatant double-standard.

Could you please link me to that thread because I don't quite remember it? Wording matters quite a bit when I respond to something.

Yes, pressing agree on a well written ToS is giving consent. The keywords here are "well written". The less vague and broad terms the better, and if you do give users options to change then they should actually affect how things work.

 

I fail to see how your comparison here is even remotely valid. The Hempel's Paradox was a demonstration of an example, whereas Gerdauf's Law was explicitly stated. The Latin terms you have a knack for using falls into neither category. Terms like "ad hominem" and "ad infinitum" are now greatly overused, get over it!

Are the terms greatly overused, or are they greatly prevalent? I think it's the latter.

Why are you attacking my style of writing anyway? It's not relevant to the discussion at all. It's like a grammar nazi pointing out minor mistakes (but in this case it's not even mistakes, just phrases you don't like for some reason).

 

If you make the blanket remark that we all live in a glass house, then frankly you do not even live in a house at all.

I don't understand what you mean. The remark about glass houses wasn't a blank statement. It was directed at you specifically.

 

 

 

 

Because then you must also say that every single Google application, Apple application, Amazon et al must also be spyware. 

You are giving Microsoft consent to take some stuff from you. That removes it from being called spyware. 

 

I'm just probably gonna end my debate here. Are you actually from Sweden, as your profile says?

Yes I have called Chrome spyware several times in the past and it is one of the reasons why I use Firefox instead.

I don't use any Apple applications but they might very well fit that definition as well.

Not sure about Amazon since they don't have a Swedish site so I don't use it. Websites in general are kind of in the gray zone though. They are not programs by themselves. They are inputs to another program (your web browser). Kind of like how a bullet is not a weapon by itself. I can't really think of a better term for it either though so for the time being I guess a website which collects information of the users without knowledge or consent is spyware too.

 

Yes I am from Sweden. Why do you ask? We have terrible privacy laws here by the way. It played a very big role when I decided which ISP to pick.

[Stuff_]

Yes I am from Sweden. Why do you ask? We have terrible privacy laws here by the way. It played a very big role when I decided which ISP to pick.

I was asking if you are from Sweden because our arguments are probably based on a difference in culture, and government, and there's no real ending to the argument.

 

Difference of ideals, that is all. Similarly to how some people like guns, some hate guns.

[LAwLz]

I was asking if you are from Sweden because our arguments are probably based on a difference in culture, and government, and there's no real ending to the argument.

 

Difference of ideals, that is all. Similarly to how some people like guns, some hate guns.

Maybe that is the case. We are clearly disagreeing on what is and isn't acceptable, and I doubt either of us will change their minds.

Agree to disagree? I will continue to argue with Colonel if he replies though.

[Nexxus]

Easy. As the windows of the train are black, it therefore concludes that the train is a raven.

That made me laugh way to hard. While I cant say I was able t grasp the entire point in that statement you made (to many mental gymnastics I just gave up trying since it wasn't relevant to why I followed the thread) the reference none the less was golden.

[Stuff_]

Maybe that is the case. We are clearly disagreeing on what is and isn't acceptable, and I doubt either of us will change their minds.

Agree to disagree? I will continue to argue with Colonel if he replies though.

Agree to disagree. I simply don't think the data mining is as severe as everyone puts it out to be. 

But if I'm wrong a few years from now, I'll definitely admit it.

[Colonel_Gerdauf]

Could you please link me to that thread because I don't quite remember it? Wording matters quite a bit when I respond to something.

Yes, pressing agree on a well written ToS is giving consent. The keywords here are "well written". The less vague and broad terms the better, and if you do give users options to change then they should actually affect how things work.

I did not bother reading beyond this point, with the amount of mental gymnastics you are trying to pull on me.

Now fortunately, I have a photographic memory. It starts here, on a thread that you yourself have created:

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/292796-obama-on-encryption-bad-if-he-cant-read-your-messages/?p=3977226

 

I have given a direct, detailed answer to the claims being made revolving encryption. You had a response that was so detached to what I was saying that I had to facepalm.

 

My counter-response, to fill in the logical holes you have made for yourself, contained the following statement:

 

The issue here is not that information is collected, but information is collected without your consent and then put up for sale. Basically you are only looking at face value and saying that one is "less evil" than the other, when in the background, they are doing the exact same thing.

Your own counter-response was so detached to reality that replying to you was entirely pointless. It was filled with red herrings and self contradictions, and then you had the audacity to compare me to a religions person when you were being the most stubborn in that thread. You mentioned this:

 

How are they doing the exact same thing? Google are fairly open about collecting your information and they are still the first party. When you use a Google product you also agree to their TOS so they do in fact have your consent. For these reasons I do think Google is the lesser of two evils here. They are not the exact same things. I can't believe you are unable to see the difference. You must be trolling.

So from that point up to now, you have made a total of 46 left turns, and ultimately I am accusing you of your inconsistency.

[mr moose]

So you wouldn't call it suspicious that even if you press disable on some features, they don't actually get turned off and they send encrypted data tagged with your unique ID to Microsoft? On top of that, Microsoft refuses to tell us what data is being sent. They dance and round the question or give us very vague answers. The fact that we don't know what data is bring sent is the issue.

If Microsoft wants to forcefully take data from me, and even going as far as to pretend like it doesn't by giving me useless settings which doesn't do anything then I at least want to know what data they are taking.

I don't get why you keep brining this up.

Even their TOS says that they got backdoors in Windows that they will use to steal personal info and hand it over to the government. What makes you think the government would want to stop that? They love it. Hell the UK got crowned as the world champions of surveillance by reporters without boarders.

Governments have even been found to break the law in order to spy on their citizens. A few years ago you could call people tinfoil hat wearers for being afraid of this, but then it turned out that they were right.

As for the government not using Windows 10 if it is bad, so far the only things I've heard is that in the US they are paying Microsoft a small fortune to stay on XP, and in China they have outright banned using newer versions of Windows.

Even if some governments do decide to upgrade we still don't know if it's safe. They might be upgrading because they got a special versions without all the spyware in it. Maybe they have access to all the collected data so they don't have to worry.

It's a shame that you're such a big Microsoft fanboy because you're usually so reasonable.

It's very worrying when customers are taking the side of the companies who abuse them. Remember, I am trying to fight for your right to privacy.

 

Now you've just sunk to name calling and accusations.  Pardon me because I refuse to make assumptions about something that can't yet be proven.

[LAwLz]

Now fortunately, I have a photographic memory. It starts here, on a thread that you yourself have created:

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/292796-obama-on-encryption-bad-if-he-cant-read-your-messages/?p=3977226

 

I have given a direct, detailed answer to the claims being made revolving encryption. You had a response that was so detached to what I was saying that I had to facepalm.

 

My counter-response, to fill in the logical holes you have made for yourself, contained the following statement:

 

Your own counter-response was so detached to reality that replying to you was entirely pointless. It was filled with red herrings and self contradictions, and then you had the audacity to compare me to a religions person when you were being the most stubborn in that thread. You mentioned this:

 

So from that point up to now, you have made a total of 46 left turns, and ultimately I am accusing you of your inconsistency.

Your photographic memory must be pretty low res. Reread my posts in that thread again and you will see that I have been very consistent with my stance.

 

In that thread I said Google was the lesser of two evils. The big one being the US government, who has since then been found to break the law in order to spy on people. The lesser of two evils is still evil. If we were comparing Microsoft to the US government then I would be saying the same thing. That Microsoft is the lesser evil. We aren't comparing Microsoft to anything in this thread though.

 

Also, you seem to have conveniently missed this part where I say I do not like Google's data harvesting:

There is one major difference between Google collecting data (which I also dislike by the way) and the NSA collecting data.

 

 

I don't see how I am being inconsistent when I time and time again have said that I do not like spying. No matter if it's Google, Microsoft or whoever else doing it. There are however different grades of "bad spying", and both Microsoft are doing the slightly milder type compared to the NSA (which again, have been found to breaking and bending the law in order to keep spying on innocent people).

 

 

 

 

Now you've just sunk to name calling and accusations.  Pardon me because I refuse to make assumptions about something that can't yet be proven.

What assumptions have I made? The only things I have said are issues are ones that we have evidence for. For example data is being sent, and we have evidence that the traffic is encrypted so we can't see what it contains.

[mr moose]

What assumptions have I made? The only things I have said are issues are ones that we have evidence for. For example data is being sent, and we have evidence that the traffic is encrypted so we can't see what it contains.

I didn't say you  where making assumptions, I said I wasn't because your calling me stubborn and a fanboy for not assuming what the data actually is.

[Colonel_Gerdauf]

Your photographic memory must be pretty low res. Reread my posts in that thread again and you will see that I have been very consistent with my stance.

 

In that thread I said Google was the lesser of two evils. The big one being the US government, who has since then been found to break the law in order to spy on people. The lesser of two evils is still evil. If we were comparing Microsoft to the US government then I would be saying the same thing. That Microsoft is the lesser evil. We aren't comparing Microsoft to anything in this thread though.

 

Also, you seem to have conveniently missed this part where I say I do not like Google's data harvesting:

 

 

I don't see how I am being inconsistent when I time and time again have said that I do not like spying. No matter if it's Google, Microsoft or whoever else doing it. There are however different grades of "bad spying", and both Microsoft are doing the slightly milder type compared to the NSA (which again, have been found to breaking and bending the law in order to keep spying on innocent people).

 

"They have different grades of bad spying". Yea sure, that certainly does not contradict your position here at all.  <_< How you could claim that Google is the magical "lesser of two evils" (newsflash: it is not; Google breaks it's own fine print if you bother to pay close enough attention), and then make such bold statements in regards to Windows 10 as to attack everybody and anybody who questions these claims, is truly beyond me. Do not deny the actions that everybody can see from you. By making the lesser of two evils claim, you are taking the position supporting Google, which makes that comment (that you have yourself highlighted) completely moot.

 

I am going to safely assume that you have never even taken psychology and sociology classes, let alone pass them, because that is the image you are giving at this moment of time. Every time somebody makes a counterargument, you twist it to some pure BS, for your vein excuse to attack their credibility. You have not learned a single thing from a year ago, have you? 

 

Before you respond to me, keep in mind that you do not have a leg to stand on, and you had been aggressively grasping for straws, for a very long time in this thread. 

[LAwLz]

"They have different grades of bad spying". Yea sure, that certainly does not contradict your position here at all.  <_< How you could claim that Google is the magical "lesser of two evils" (newsflash: it is not; Google breaks it's own fine print if you bother to pay close enough attention), and then make such bold statements in regards to Windows 10 as to attack everybody and anybody who questions these claims, is truly beyond me. Do not deny the actions that everybody can see from you. By making the lesser of two evils claim, you are taking the position supporting Google, which makes that comment (that you have yourself highlighted) completely moot.

 

I am going to safely assume that you have never even taken psychology and sociology classes, let alone pass them, because that is the image you are giving at this moment of time. Every time somebody makes a counterargument, you twist it to some pure BS, for your vein excuse to attack their credibility. You have not learned a single thing from a year ago, have you? 

 

Before you respond to me, keep in mind that you do not have a leg to stand on, and you had been aggressively grasping for straws, for a very long time in this thread. 

No it does not contradict my position here at all. No idea how you could possibly twist anything I have said in this thread to mean that.

 

How do I support Google when I claim they are evil? By the same logic, I am also supporting Microsoft because I said I think of Microsoft and Google as both being the lesser evils when compared to the NSA. Does that make sense to you? It doesn't make sense to me.

Me: "Google is the lesser of two evils"

You: "Stop defending Google!"

Me: "Google and Microsoft are both the lesser of two evils"

You: "Stop attacking Microsoft when you defend Google!"

 

And hopy crap dude. Like 2/3 of your post is nothing but a personal attack. Yet you still try to claim that I am the one who tries to undermine the credability of others. The closest to that I have done in this thread is when I called mr moose a fanboy, and that was like 1/20 of 1 post. Can you stop with the personal attacks and stick to debating the subject at hand?

 

 

I am not grapsing at straws. I have evidence to support all my claims.

[Colonel_Gerdauf]

-snip-

 

When you manipulate as much of the information as you do, that is the best answer you are going to get.

 

The grounds have been covered a hundred million times, and yet you manage to still skew them to look like something else. Every single point that has been said from people including yourself, has already been addressed very thoroughly. We repeat to you the same arguments, and you repeatedly dismiss them without a single thought as to the context of the arguments as being spoken.

 

If you want to bring new data on the table, I am all ears, but up to now, this has been going around in circles as nobody is looking at the same issue. Like I told you a while ago, it really pays off when you look at the matter with the bigger picture at hand, which is what you had not been doing since the rise of the Windows 10 fear-mongering campaigns. Some of the concerns revolving the security may be true in specific contexts, but overall this has been blown horribly out of proportions. 

[LAwLz]

When you manipulate as much of the information as you do, that is the best answer you are going to get.

I have not manipulated anything. I stick to evidence and the truth.

 

 

The grounds have been covered a hundred million times, and yet you manage to still skew them to look like something else. Every single point that has been said from people including yourself, has already been addressed very thoroughly. We repeat to you the same arguments, and you repeatedly dismiss them without a single thought as to the context of the arguments as being spoken.

Well if that's how you feel then I can honestly say I feel the same way when talking to you. Even when handed evidence on a silver plate it gets dismissed without a single thought.

 

 

If you want to bring new data on the table, I am all ears, but up to now, this has been going around in circles as nobody is looking at the same issue. Like I told you a while ago, it really pays off when you look at the matter with the bigger picture at hand, which is what you had not been doing since the rise of the Windows 10 fear-mongering campaigns. Some of the concerns revolving the security may be true in specific contexts, but overall this has been blown horribly out of proportions. 

It is not a "fear-mongering campaign" when we have solid evidence to support the claims. Claims such as:

1) Microsoft are collecting information regardless of user settings.

2) You can't opt-out of the data collection.

3) The traffic is encrypted so we can't tell what data they are collecting, nor will Microsoft tell us the specifics of what is being collected.

 

If you think it's a "fear-mongering campaign" to simply state facts then I'm not sure what to say.