HUGE middle finger to asus!

[Cramig88]

im short for words here, just really really pissed off

 

x570 ASUS or ROG, pfft, crosshair viii wifi/hero (oh ill get into that)

5950x

6700xt pci1

4x nvme pci bifurcation card in pci2

4090 w/ riser in pci3, its too wide, was my only option

custom loop, whatever

 

why put the 4x4 nvme in slot 2?  well the bios said i could.  simple as that.  although the manual said 8x is supported if 2 or 3 cards are installed, just figured it would work.  i mean its the manual.  sure it goes against my better judgement/logic but hey.  latest bios version 5002 from idk, lately?

my prior config had 3 gpus so i figured, fudge, if slot 2 has bifurcation, sweet!  4 nvmes in a pci card, all 4x gen 4? i can deal without the quadro 4000, just shove it back in the server!  game on right?

 

despite the f*ing manual and bios saying its all good, it aint.  i spent 4 hours squeezing all this crap together not to mention reconfiguring my water loop.  sure that wasnt too bad, draining it, water everywhere, cutting soft tubing to make it pretty.  cause ya know, when ya do this kinda project, ya do it once - right?

 

hahahahaha!  NOPE!  they should be paying ME for their false claims and all the work i did!!!

as it turns out bifurcation is only "recommended" on pci1 (from a thread on asus support, october 2024, link below), and at best it'll only read/detect 3 of four drives - even with an asus nvme thing

now yes i was skeptical, 4x4 is 16, so logically that means we need 16x, not 8.  16x div/4=4 simple f*ing math.  suppose its my fault that i saw it was an option in the bios and thought "hey im on a new version, since i have premo nvmes in the thing, ~30gb/s (yes, 25-30gb/s) that would be awesome for, well, everything!".  the dark hero (i have the regular hero, misleading isnt it?) supports dynamic OC+PBO, give me that checkbox and ill brick my mobo on my own.  it would be my fault for trying cause i "didnt" read the fine print, manual, whitesheet, reviews, frequent bios updates, invest in WCooling setup, good lord.  my bad you gave me an option and i went for it?  ugh.

 

my ddr3 server with dual xeons can do it on EVERY pci slot including the additional daughter board i purchased.  its only running dual xeon 2690's, 8 SAS drives, 6 SSD's plus 2 that arent raid-able since those header colors are white compared to blue.  not to mention 24 dimms at 368 or something gigs of ecc ram.  when i was testing stuff out i had the quadro in there, this nvme thingy, another ethernet card w/ 4x 1gig ports, another with like 10 usb3 ports, fu*k.  damn thing has 16 ethernet ports, 2 of which are SFP, which means they support FIBER.  one Tx and one Rx, pretty cool considering massive switch i have.  oh plus one for the IPMI - basically a deticated ethernet port/IP so you can do maintenance\config stuff (for those that dont know).  did i mention it has onboard video too along with a crapload of other stuff?

initially on the server, i didnt think this card would work.  after all, even with 2 cpu's that are way outdated, same goes for the motherboard, my expectations were minimal.  i figured my lanes are saturated, aint no way in Oprah's fat ass is this gonna work.  suppose she stopped by an all you can eat buffet before getting to my place cause it did!  just entered the bios and enabled bifurcation.  not knowing which pci slot it was (theres so many) i just did trial and error.

so the damn thing boots up, BAM, 4x 1tb kingston rampage fury's at 7200mbps/4000mbps (or something), dude im transferring files from SAS to the card at 20 something or more GIGS sustained, regardless of file size!  AND the quadro, shes ripping away at 16x too.  what?!

 

so of course im thinking, try it on my "high end" pc thats at least a decade newer.  im just tossing in a 4x4 card, bios says its all good.  WRONG

lets pull back to the post i found from 10/2024, oh asus, you bastards... bait and switch. 

as it turns out, 4x4x plus a gpu is ONLY supported in pci1, leaving pci2 with your gpu.  do the math, if you got one card in slot one, 16x.  add another, they both drop to 8x.  16/x = 8, throw in the pci3 on the southbridge and thats 4x regardless.

this person has the 5950x, same mobo/config as me - surprise.  well not entirely but pretty damn close, what are the chances??  what are the f*ing chances that a pc enthusiast would buy a motherboard based off its technical specs and take them literally?  thats just crazy, who does that?  to purchase an expensive motherboard and expect the performance to match the paperwork is a crazy idea.  anyway on this particular thread an Asus rep replied but didnt say anything except pci1 will only support 3 nvme's (yet this person had an ASUS 4x nvme card, pfft) and left a chart.  guess wtf the chart amounted to?

 

the dark hero, formula, and hero, *only* support 3 nvmes on asus' own pci card, on the first pci slot.  at least for "G" series in the 5000 lineup - WHAT?!  if it isnt a "G" series itll work fine.  gets worse!

even if you buy the "extreme" variant of the crosshair, same story.  according to the chart, if you have the extreme version, bifurcation works in slot 2, but only supports 2 nvmes.  slot 1, supports 4.  provided you dont have a "G" 5000 series cpu.  huh??  sorry but i did my research prior to purchasing a $500 motherboard and a $500 cpu (at the time) and expected the WHITESHEET to be dead on clear as to its capabilities.  one would naturally assume, hey if the paper says its got 200hp, its got 200hp.  NOPE.  the f*ing MANUAL says nothing about a "G" series 5000 cpu versus a non-g let alone the extreme motherboards capabilities between the other three.  i was only presented with basic information related to the extreme and it trickled somehow to the other variants. the "extreme" only supports whats on paper, not the others.  ive never heard of a G or non-G series cpu from amd either!  ive looked over the manual and the "latest" revision on their website and nope.  for each mobo its a 1:1 copy regardless of what you own!  idk about you but if your looking at buying a $500 product which is the foundation of your computer, the paper should reflect the product as advertised. 

 

i dont understand why they would put a manual on their site for 4 different boards, all with the exact same information.  the manual says itll be fine, but apparently somebody has to bitch and say WTF until they release the fine grain details.  

"um yeah, you didnt buy the super premo model, you have a G processor whatever the f* that means, so your screwed.  no sorry, but thank you for your concern.  we wont address this issue to anybody except you in this tiny thread.  thank you again.  we only give real answers to buyers, thanks again.  sorry for the delayed response, i was on vacation, thanks again"  who the f* goes on vacation in october?  dont they have more than one rep to help out?  a pizza place has better customer service!

the nvme card alone was 400, 200 each nvme (at the time), thats $1200!  i already dropped $1000 between the "hero" and best cpu it supports, *now* its a different story?  IF THE PAPER SAYS 200hp I EXPECT TO GET 200hp!!! 

 

so yeah, here i am with a 6700 in pci1, a pci nvme card configured for raid 0 in pci2 which is useless, then a 4090 in pci3 on a riser.  all of which was a pain in the ass to setup cause HEY IT SAYS IT'LL WORK.  add insult to injury my 4090 dont display out of any of its ports yet its detected in device manager and its set as 4th gen in the bios.  what the hell?!  even IF i had a "extreme" the mobo dont even have hdmi out if you had an APU, how the *************** am i supposed to get 16x out of one slot plus a gpu???  how can i trust anything they say on paper if it takes somebody bitching to get the details? 

 

whatever man, a decade old server can do more than my $1000 setup, and thats just mobo\cpu. Asus cant back up its own products let alone own up to its whitesheet.  MY $2000 4090 ISNT DISPLAYING OUTPUT BUT ITS RECOGNIZED.  MY $1200 NVME WILL NOT PULL UP ALL 4 DRIVES, JUST ONE!  I CANT EVEN POST WITH BIFURCATION ON IN BIOS. aside from all that, the 6700 is running at 8x, WITH NOTHING ELSE WORKING AS IT SHOULD!

so $4200 in hardware needs to be reconfigured, water loops need to be setup all over again, and ill never get 4 drives recognized either way.  $1000 on the mobo\cpu, $2000 on the gpu, $1200 on the nvme pci thing and 4x drives, $4200!

 

"do your research", yah, i did.  500 bucks says i read everything i could find on the board.  never saw a chart specifying the real information until i ran into this issue.

 

f*ck asus.  seriously, no.  the mobo manual for all 4 boards mentions nothing related to bifurcation or its requirements.  Never have i read anything specifying the "need" for an extreme variant let alone a G series 5xxx to get 16x out of the top pci while utilizing pci2 for a gpu.  in fact, theres no information saying itll support 16x plus a gpu, anywhere!

 

imagine buying a car, lets say you get it blue but you purchased red.  the rep tells you, well you bought a colorblind version, technically its blue.  heres a datasheet explaining the details that we didnt bother showing you until after the purchase.  yeah, no.  give me an address, ill drive across the ocean if need be (with a will theres a way) and beat an asus executive with a baseball bat until they admit fault.  pfft, between gas, plane ticket, bail and baseball bat, id be out probably $1000 - so in that respect we break even.  at least between the motherboard and cpu... 

 

THAT is a return policy!

 

considering everything else i purchased with the intent on putting in this thing given the datasheet/specs, id have to go after family and friends to make up the difference.  even if i cant make bail the time served in jail would equate to the time spent reconfiguring everything dozens of times over.

 

seems they only give up real data on a need to know basis.  meanwhile your target audience is hardcore enthusiasts??  i didnt buy a prebuilt HP, I BUILT A PC based off THEIR specs.

 

ive officially had it with asus.  yeah lots of BS on youtube from a year ago or so, nothing from "this" far back.  i will NEVER buy asus again.  never will i recommend it.  all the complaints about them are true.  i can deal with a few "whoopsies" but a G series requirement plus a wicked expensive mobo to match the specs of 3 boards beneath it?  yeah, my bad.  i paid for a ferarri and got a big wheel.  my fault, i shoulda contacted customer service first prior to having any expectations based on their paperwork. 

 

youd be pissed if it happened to you

 

id like to chill out and play some games but whoops, slot 3 dont work aside from recognizing the card.  ill be spending my entire day reconfiguring my hardware trying to get this mobo to recognize at least half of my nvme drives.  getting it all working semi-proper is extremely optimistic.  thanks for hearing out my 50 cents, maybe ill find this elusive G-unit while im at it...

 

https://rog-forum.asus.com/t5/gaming-motherboards/crosshair-viii-hero-x570-with-asus-hyper-m-2-x16-pcie-3-0-x4/td-p/1043027

[Cramig88]

Apparently the G series is just the APU version of the X

never heard of a 5950g

why would an APU be required on a Mobo without an hdmi out?

nothing makes sense…

https://www.electronicshub.org/ryzen-g-vs-x/#:~:text=The Ryzen G series processors,directly onto the same chip.

[emosun]

1 hour ago, Cramig88 said:

i spent 4 hours squeezing all this crap together not to mention reconfiguring my water loop.  sure that wasnt too bad, draining it, water everywhere, cutting soft tubing to make it pretty.  cause ya know, when ya do this kinda project, ya do it once - right?

no , thats the main reason you don't use watercooling , due to its poor repair-ability. nobody who uses water cooling is doing it because it disassembles for diagnostics easily. and nobody assembles a machine assuming it will function on the very first try.

you fit the machine together first aircoooled , then add water components later. 

I didn't bother reading the rest because it's too long and looks like a rant that emerged from a lack of knowledge and over expectations.

[Cramig88]

So yeah I was right. Benching it now, the first slot is of course 8x, 2nd with a gpu

so non-g, we want a 5950x. Ok, check

It’s only pulling up one NVMe out of four

 

This is so counter intuitive. How the crap am I supposed to use a 16x for a NVMe card without a gpu since the 5950x don’t have an integrated gpu and the motherboard series don’t have an hdmi out anyways?!

 

yep u can fly, only if u don’t have wings?

[Cramig88]

9 minutes ago, emosun said:

no , thats the main reason you don't use watercooling , due to its poor repair-ability. nobody who uses water cooling is doing it because it disassembles for diagnostics easily. and nobody assembles a machine assuming it will function on the very first try.

you fit the machine together first aircoooled , then add water components later. 

I didn't bother reading the rest because it's too long and looks like a rant that emerged from a lack of knowledge and over expectations.

Regardless of the watercooling aspect asus failed to say “it requires 16x, but since you’ll need a gpu your SOL”

 

why even have the option in the bios?  I should RDP to my pc?  Ok if i could then I’d have to set everything up with a gpu, swap, then rdp to my high end ddr4 machine?

 

u gotta admit that’s dumb as donuts

[Tetras]

The older HEDT/server platforms were kind of superior to the current consumer platforms in being able to use the PCI-E slots/lanes and that's been a complaint that a fair few users have about these boards. It applies to all of them really, AM4, AM5 and 1700.

 

If you have a requirement that it is outside the norm (like you need an 8 lane secondary card) it can get complicated real fast.

 

The latest AM5 (X870/X870E) boards have a new fun time, in what USB4 has done to the CPU lanes. A lot of these boards (nearly all) will drop your GPU to 8 lane if you populate all the M.2 slots.

 

Having to read the tech specs / manual has become a standard requirement to decipher these lanes and led to videos like these being produced for the latest motherboards:

 

Asus are really subject to the same CPU limitations that everybody else is. It is rare to see a board that does anything differently there. Bifurcation on the secondary slot is very hit and miss and rarely available beyond any (hard wired) switches between the PCI-E slot and the M.2 slots.

 

The G CPUs usually get a caveat not because they're better, but because they're worse. They have less lanes available and can be a PCI-E gen behind the non-G CPUs.

[Cramig88]

1 minute ago, Tetras said:

The older HEDT/server platforms were kind of superior to the current consumer platforms in being able to use the PCI-E slots/lanes and that's been a complaint that a fair few users have about these boards. It applies to all of them really, AM4, AM5 and 1700.

 

If you have a requirement that it is outside the norm (like you need an 8 lane secondary card) it can get complicated real fast.

 

The latest AM5 (X870/X870E) boards have a new fun time, in what USB4 has done to the CPU lanes. A lot of these boards (nearly all) will drop your GPU to 8 lane if you populate all the M.2 slots.

 

Having to read the tech specs / manual has become a standard requirement to decipher these lanes and led to videos like these being produced for the latest motherboards:

 

Asus are really subject to the same CPU limitations that everybody else is. It is rare to see a board that does anything differently there. Bifurcation on the secondary slot is very hit and miss and rarely available beyond any (hard wired) switches between the PCI-E slot and the M.2 slots.

 

The G CPUs usually get a caveat not because they're better, but because they're worse. They have less lanes available and can be a PCI-E gen behind the non-G CPUs.

Then why advertise a feature that’s unavailable? I’m wasting 8x on one NVMe. That’s very misleading to anybody shopping. This was all purchased and researched prior to ddr5

[Tetras]

3 minutes ago, Cramig88 said:

Then why advertise a feature that’s unavailable? I’m wasting 8x on one NVMe. That’s very misleading to anybody shopping. This was all purchased and researched prior to ddr5

The features are really niche, that's the problem you often encounter here.

 

Consumer boards aren't properly validated and tested for bifurcation and they're not particularly interested in explaining those details.

 

The Hyper M.2 cards used to have an enormous set of tables on Asus' website with a list of the max slots per board, but I notice the page is not accessible right now.

 

In theory, the 8 lane operation should support 2x M.2 drives if the bifurcation on the second slot is configured to 4x4, though I believe the drive position on the card may influence the outcome.

 

The 16 lane operation (4x M.2 slots) on the primary slot is possible, however there's no display output on a non-G CPU and these CPUs have a restriction where they can split their graphics lanes only to 8 and 8 mode. So, you can't use the secondary slot for display when there's a hyper M.2 card configured to 4x4x4x4 in the primary slot.

 

If someone is familiar with the previous HEDT boards and have those kind of requirements, they really have to go with a threadripper or a xeon, because these boards don't/can't replicate their functionality.

[Blue4130]

46 minutes ago, Cramig88 said:

Then why advertise a feature that’s unavailable? I’m wasting 8x on one NVMe. That’s very misleading to anybody shopping. This was all purchased and researched prior to ddr5

Hate  to say it, but your beef should be more with AMD and Intel for only supplying 20/24 lanes of pcie with the consumer chips. Your xeon doesn't have this issue because it is enterprise. If you want proper bifurcation and allocation of pcie, you need either threadripper or xeon these days.

[Cramig88]

2 hours ago, Blue4130 said:

Hate  to say it, but your beef should be more with AMD and Intel for only supplying 20/24 lanes of pcie with the consumer chips. Your xeon doesn't have this issue because it is enterprise. If you want proper bifurcation and allocation of pcie, you need either threadripper or xeon these days.

that is a very valid point.  maybe they're cutting corners, reducing production costs and possibly saving the consumer money?  possibly reducing production and increasing cost - who knows the truth really.  i didnt consider how many lanes the cpu has available, so that would make sense why *any* motherboard with the exception of enterprise grade stuff, would be limited to 20/24 lanes.  i should have thought about that limitation prior to starting this endeavor...

btw just finished with the pain in the a$$ reconfig.  gotta admit the loop looks much cleaner now.  ultimately i removed the 6700 and popped in the nvme/4090/quadro in that order.  only had the 6700 cause of the waterblock, it just looked cool.  aside from that as mentioned in other posts ive made, one of my monitors is a msi, 1080p@165hz so the radeon software made it super easy to apply super virtual resolution.

 

its just odd though because prior to these two s*it shows i had my standard config, 4090/6700 and removed the quadro last night.  well, technically the night before as this has been a 2 day ordeal.  anyway i always had trouble getting "custom resolution" to work in NvCP, but when i took out the quadro i had no problem shoveling 2560x1440@165hz to my MSI.  now that the quadro is back it wont work.  so to clairify, i had all my screens hooked up to the 4090 without the quadro installed, 6700xt had nothing plugged into it.  just for kicks i tried custom res. and holy crap, it actually worked first try!  suppose now i gotta figure out how and why the quadro is interfering even tho nothings connected to it...  strange right? same premium DP cable, no change there.  maybe im using the wrong port?  not sure how that would make a difference...

 

if anybodys got ideas let me know, if not ill just make another thread if i cant find a solution via goodle

oh also, i use nvidia software to display the gpu overlay - you know volts watts mhz fps blah blah.  its been a persistant issue, some reason the software displays the quadro info even though my 4090 is what plays the games and stuff.  that being said is there an easy fix with the nvidia software or should i go with some other software that you guys might recommend?  honestly i dont even know where to start with that one...

[Cramig88]

3 hours ago, Tetras said:

The features are really niche, that's the problem you often encounter here.

 

Consumer boards aren't properly validated and tested for bifurcation and they're not particularly interested in explaining those details.

 

The Hyper M.2 cards used to have an enormous set of tables on Asus' website with a list of the max slots per board, but I notice the page is not accessible right now.

 

In theory, the 8 lane operation should support 2x M.2 drives if the bifurcation on the second slot is configured to 4x4, though I believe the drive position on the card may influence the outcome.

 

The 16 lane operation (4x M.2 slots) on the primary slot is possible, however there's no display output on a non-G CPU and these CPUs have a restriction where they can split their graphics lanes only to 8 and 8 mode. So, you can't use the secondary slot for display when there's a hyper M.2 card configured to 4x4x4x4 in the primary slot.

 

If someone is familiar with the previous HEDT boards and have those kind of requirements, they really have to go with a threadripper or a xeon, because these boards don't/can't replicate their functionality.

combined with what blue4130 said, makes sense.  most people dont use raid let alone have 8 sata drives, 2x nvme's on board and a 4x nvme pci card. 

presuming maybe 10% of the population does there wouldnt be any benefit in amd\intels eyes to include more lanes to make the 10% happy.  i dont design cpu's i just mess with them, so as i said before, cost cutting?  mobo standards?  cost cutting and inflating prices?  who cares at this point, your right its a niche market.  just kinda sucks that if i wanna do all that kinda stuff i have to upgrade to a crazy expensive setup.  dono what the threadrippers go for, but i know they aint cheap.  same with xeons.

 

and yeah i *think* i can get 2x drives working, i took a look at the manual online and yeah i guess ya gotta take 2 out.  idk why, esp since they arent identified during POST.  well maybe they are, its hard to tell considering i have so many damn drives and raid arrays. 

 

weird part is the pci thing is aorus, yet on the pcb it says gigabyte - aorus has the same model number.  idk what thats all about but whateverrrr

heres a link to anybody curious https://www.aorus.com/en-us/components/aorus-gen4-aic-adaptor/Key-Features

 

oh snap just re-read your post, could you elaborate on "The 16 lane operation (4x M.2 slots) on the primary slot is possible, however there's no display output on a non-G CPU and these CPUs have a restriction where they can split their graphics lanes only to 8 and 8 mode. So, you can't use the secondary slot for display when there's a hyper M.2 card configured to 4x4x4x4 in the primary slot."

 

i understand with one device its 16x, so on my server it would go 4x4x4x4.  then if i add another card, gpu, im at 8x and 8x both gen4, toss in a 3rd and that guy is 4x at 3.0 (according to the manual).  8x\8x i can attest is true. the 4x at 3.0 must also be true because i actually found out the 4090 does not support 4x mode at all.  idk my brains all scrambled, say the least i tested it out and couldnt get output.  besides, 4x@3.0 on a 4090 is just plain dumb

suppose what im asking is if pci1 is at 8x, itll do 4x4 right?  idk im just scatterbrained thinking and doing this stuff after 2 days.  brain fog, but yeah i presume its 4x4

 

still idk why id have to remove 2 nvmes, thats silly.  why not just leave them in there so if i swap the card to the server its ready to go and i dont gotta take it apart again.  whatever, it is what it is.  ill check the aorus manual out as opposed to the gigabyte one i read earlier.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

6 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

why put the 4x4 nvme in slot 2?  well the bios said i could. 

It is possible that you can indeed. However,

6 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

 although the manual said 8x is supported if 2 or 3 cards are installed

meaning you cannot get 4x4x4x4x bifurcation on PCIe X16_2, or any other true x16 use case, when PCIe X16_1 is in use.

 

6 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

just figured it would work.

Why?

6 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

  i mean its the manual.

Exactly. The manual told you it won't.

 

6 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

my prior config had 3 gpus so i figured, fudge, if slot 2 has bifurcation, sweet!  4 nvmes in a pci card, all 4x gen 4? i can deal without the quadro 4000, just shove it back in the server!  game on right?

GPUs don't require 16 PCIe lanes, although they can use up to 16. They will work with 8, like your 6700XT, or even 4 lanes, as your 4090 is currently using per your manual.

 

6 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

 

despite the f*ing manual and bios saying its all good, it aint.

 

The manual never said so, you said it yourself. It clearly states that you have 8 lanes active in the first slot, 8 lanes active in the second, and 4 in the third slot. You may have toggled the bifurcation switch, but it doesn't change that there aren't 16 lanes to bifurcate.

 

6 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

now yes i was skeptical, 4x4 is 16, so logically that means we need 16x, not 8.  16x div/4=4 simple f*ing math. 

Yes.

 

6 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

suppose its my fault that i saw it was an option in the bios

I don't have this board, but if the option is there, that means it's probably capable of bifurcating the 16 lanes, when they are there, meaning empty PCIe_X16_1 and PCIe_X16_3.

6 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

my ddr3 server with dual xeons can do it on EVERY pci slot including the additional daughter board i purchased. 

Yes. Because it's a server board. You can do the same in many intel HEDT platforms and Threadripper since first gen, because server and HEDT CPUs have plenty of PCIe lanes hooked directly to these slots. Consumer CPUs don't - you're using the wrong tool if your goal is to use many PCIe devices. Consumer boards are geared for 1 GPU at full bandwidth and that's basically it, although you can mostly get away with an x8 GPU and some other device that also requires limited bandwidth. Probably your only option with your current setup is to use some kind or RAID card that presents itself as a single drive to the OS, and that can work with whatever lanes it has available (for example, the WD AN1500 was a "PCIe x8" NVMe drive, that was actually a board with  a controller and two x4 drives in RAID0).

6 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

so of course im thinking, try it on my "high end" pc thats at least a decade newer. 

"High end" or not, it is still a consumer board/CPU combination with limited PCIe lanes, as opposed to server and HEDT platforms, old as they may be.

 

6 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

this person has the 5950x, same mobo/config as me - surprise.  well not entirely but pretty damn close, what are the chances??  what are the f*ing chances that a pc enthusiast would buy a motherboard based off its technical specs and take them literally?  thats just crazy, who does that?  to purchase an expensive motherboard and expect the performance to match the paperwork is a crazy idea. 

(...)

even if you buy the "extreme" variant of the crosshair, same story. 

It does match. A 5950X has 20 PCIe lanes plus some connectivity to the chipset for additional, indirect connections. 20 means that, at x8x8x4, you're exhausting all available lanes in the CPU. There's nothing a different motherboard can do for you.

 

6 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

according to the chart, if you have the extreme version, bifurcation works in slot 2, but only supports 2 nvmes.  slot 1, supports 4.  provided you dont have a "G" 5000 series cpu.  huh?? 

Yes, G series CPUs have fewer / older PCIe support (probably due to the iGPU taking some of the CPU's connectivity).

 

6 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

the mobo dont even have hdmi out if you had an APU, how the *************** am i supposed to get 16x out of one slot plus a gpu??? 

Good question.

 

6 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

whatever man, a decade old server can do more than my $1000 setup

It's expected, especially if you're looking into doing things the (CPU) manufacturers have been trying to lock from consumer platform, steering those who need them towards WS/server platforms.

6 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

"do your research", yah, i did. 

I'm not trying to tease you, but not really. Otherwise, if you were going to spend that kind of money, you would have known to go for a platform designed around PCIe connectivity, even if somewhat older (since you won't get the full performance of any GPU anyway), rather than spending it on a heavily marketed board that can't, by the nature of the platform, do anything substantial more than the cheapest board with the same chipset (or even a B550 board for that matter). Maybe a used 3000 series Threadripper would have been a better value in your case.

 

6 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

f*ck asus.  seriously, no. 

While I can sympathize with the statement, I'm not sure it's entirely justified in the context. I do think motherboard makers in general could be a bit more thorough with the alternative capabilities of their products, especially when dealing with the curved balls the CPU manufacturers throw at them (like the 4 generations of CPUs plus APU variants on the same socket, which is good in a way, but also complicated to handle). I've lost count on the time I spent between official pages and reviews to find the answer to a particular question about a piece of hardware.

 

 

[starsmine]

im lost how this is in asus

[Blue4130]

36 minutes ago, Cramig88 said:

that is a very valid point.  maybe they're cutting corners, reducing production costs and possibly saving the consumer money?

No. It is 100% product segmentation. They want you to jump up to server/prosumer stuff.

[Cramig88]

14 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

While I can sympathize with the statement, I'm not sure it's entirely justified in the context. I do think motherboard makers in general could be a bit more thorough with the alternative capabilities of their products, especially when dealing with the curved balls the CPU manufacturers through at them (like the 4 generations of CPUs plus APU variants on the same socket, which is good in a way, but also complicated to handle). I've lost count on the time I spent between official pages and reviews to find the answer to a particular question about a piece of hardware.

 

 

totally agree, also thanks for the time spent responding to each query and complaint.  as mentioned, xyz corp is selling a overclockers mobo, the manual should be much thicker since its designed for that specific consumer/audience.  especially in terms of giving a better explanation of the crapton of bios settings and what they do.  of course ive googled nearly all of them but the immediate description is still vague and confusing.  isnt until i find a reddit post and somebody breaks it down till i can fully understand it

 

oh also, love the screen name.  oh man i miss that show.  loved aqua teen too, master shake rocks

 

[Cramig88]

1 minute ago, starsmine said:

im lost how this is in asus

well apparently given the knowledge these ppl dropped on me i was mistaken, didnt consider 20\24 lanes per consumer cpu till it was mentioned

[Cramig88]

4 hours ago, Tetras said:

The older HEDT/server platforms were kind of superior to the current consumer platforms in being able to use the PCI-E slots/lanes and that's been a complaint that a fair few users have about these boards. It applies to all of them really, AM4, AM5 and 1700.

 

If you have a requirement that it is outside the norm (like you need an 8 lane secondary card) it can get complicated real fast.

 

The latest AM5 (X870/X870E) boards have a new fun time, in what USB4 has done to the CPU lanes. A lot of these boards (nearly all) will drop your GPU to 8 lane if you populate all the M.2 slots.

 

Having to read the tech specs / manual has become a standard requirement to decipher these lanes and led to videos like these being produced for the latest motherboards:

 

Asus are really subject to the same CPU limitations that everybody else is. It is rare to see a board that does anything differently there. Bifurcation on the secondary slot is very hit and miss and rarely available beyond any (hard wired) switches between the PCI-E slot and the M.2 slots.

 

The G CPUs usually get a caveat not because they're better, but because they're worse. They have less lanes available and can be a PCI-E gen behind the non-G CPUs.

the video goes over ddr5 boards, correct?  i do follow what its saying, makes sense.  basically by having all my lanes saturated (which i do) stuff is actually running slower than it should.

 

in the video it mentioned the usb IO lanes, does that apply to ddr4 or am4  motherboards also?  if so that could open up a few for me, although i doubt(?) theyd be redirected to any particular pci slot.  imagine it would alternate based on what component needs attention, m.2_1 for now, pci16x_1 now, back to m.2, maybe the sound controller and so on.  given these cpu's (mine anyway) is 4.9 boost, stock, thats a crapload of cycles and switching around in a single second!

[Cramig88]

4 hours ago, emosun said:

no , thats the main reason you don't use watercooling , due to its poor repair-ability. nobody who uses water cooling is doing it because it disassembles for diagnostics easily. and nobody assembles a machine assuming it will function on the very first try.

you fit the machine together first aircoooled , then add water components later. 

I didn't bother reading the rest because it's too long and looks like a rant that emerged from a lack of knowledge and over expectations.

well thats what i did initially when i first got the stuff in the mail - no microcenter near me.  i benched it and made sure everything was happy, then i installed the blocks, tested again (why not right?), yada yada.

 

its just when i decide to swap hardware around thats the part that hurts.  at least the 2nd time around doing all this i "benched" a few different HW configurations to make sure everything was happy before i completely put it back together.  i deff learned from my mistake and all these cool ppl offering up very helpful and informative stuffs.  that being said i wish i could change the title of the post cause i was deff in the wrong by slamming asus.  i shouldnt have been so quick to react with frustration\anger on a public forum, very immature of me.  i should have been more humble and asked "why" rather than go berserk with a 5 page rant.

sorry about that ladies, gents and pronouns^128 lol.  and no i dont mean that offensive either, my daughters into the whole thing so i poke lighthearted jokes at her every once n a while for it

[Tetras]

1 hour ago, Cramig88 said:

the video goes over ddr5 boards, correct?

Yeah, they're AM5 boards. As you can see in the video, things have not really improved with this limited lanes situation.

 

1 hour ago, Cramig88 said:

in the video it mentioned the usb IO lanes, does that apply to ddr4 or am4  motherboards also?

No, USB4 stealing PCIE lanes is an AM5 specific issue for mainly X870/X870E.

 

The only advantage you'd get from a newer board is that M.2 slots are more widely available, so you would have less need for the M.2 card. The X870E Nova is an example of what can be done on a consumer board.

[emosun]

3 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

sorry about that ladies, gents and pronouns^128 lol.  and no i dont mean that offensive either, my daughters into the whole thing so i poke lighthearted jokes at her every once n a while for it

 

[Tetras]

12 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

i dont design cpu's i just mess with them, so as i said before, cost cutting?  mobo standards?  cost cutting and inflating prices?  who cares at this point, your right its a niche market.  just kinda sucks that if i wanna do all that kinda stuff i have to upgrade to a crazy expensive setup.  dono what the threadrippers go for, but i know they aint cheap.  same with xeons.

I think what Blue4130 said is probably the main motivation, product/market segmentation to upsell you to the threadripper/Xeon CPUs

 

If I was trying to be kind, then I guess I'd say that PCI-Express has gotten way faster and the signalling is supposed to be more expensive and difficult to handle, so maybe there's a sensible justification to limiting the capabilities of these CPUs/boards.

 

The loss of affordable HEDT (like X99/X299... and all the way back to X58?) has definitely left a hole in the market for those that want a workstation type setup without paying mega bucks for it. It has made higher-end boards a lot less worthwhile too, since they're so limited by the CPU's lanes and operating modes that they can't really offer anything that the cheaper boards can't (except for adding higher-end LAN, sound and that kind of stuff).

 

12 hours ago, Cramig88 said:

oh snap just re-read your post, could you elaborate on "The 16 lane operation (4x M.2 slots) on the primary slot is possible, however there's no display output on a non-G CPU and these CPUs have a restriction where they can split their graphics lanes only to 8 and 8 mode. So, you can't use the secondary slot for display when there's a hyper M.2 card configured to 4x4x4x4 in the primary slot."

 

i understand with one device its 16x, so on my server it would go 4x4x4x4.  then if i add another card, gpu, im at 8x and 8x both gen4, toss in a 3rd and that guy is 4x at 3.0 (according to the manual).  8x\8x i can attest is true. the 4x at 3.0 must also be true because i actually found out the 4090 does not support 4x mode at all.  idk my brains all scrambled, say the least i tested it out and couldnt get output.  besides, 4x@3.0 on a 4090 is just plain dumb

suppose what im asking is if pci1 is at 8x, itll do 4x4 right?  idk im just scatterbrained thinking and doing this stuff after 2 days.  brain fog, but yeah i presume its 4x4

There are two main issues with this.

 

Number 1: how is the CPU able to split the lanes?

Number 2: if the CPU splits the lanes, what bifurcation is supported by the motherboard?

 

M.2 cards have an issue with 2., because they require bifurcation to support more than one slot (each slot, uses 4 lanes each).

 

Number 1: this is important because if you wire two slots directly to the CPU's graphics lanes, you have only two options (this is a limitation of the CPU):

 

- The full 16 lane operation, which happens/is available when the second slot is not used.

OR

- 8 (primary slot) and 8 (secondary slot) operation, which is done whenever the 2nd slot is populated.

 

About the 4090, yeah, I've heard that nvidia cards can have issues with 4 lane slots, but not many have tried it, so hard to find confirmation. In the mining days people were running cards even on 1 lane slots, so I'm not sure if there's a workaround, or it relates to the board not even looking for a GPU in the 3rd slot.

 

From what I can gather, whatever you do (if you put the M.2 card in the primary or secondary slot), you're always limited to only 2 M.2 drives, because the primary slot option for the M.2 card of 4x4x4x4, is not available to you, when it disables the secondary slot that you NEED for the GPU output.