Storage/data drive in PC or enclosure?

[Paul17]

I've read a few threads of ppl buying ssds - for OS drive, data etc. - SATA used to be the main drive ppl would buy - often they'd go in enclosures.   I was thinking of getting a nvme drive for storage (I want one more for OS but that will come later) - but, I'm not sure whether to put it in the PC - thus, using up an M.2 slot or an enclosure.   The concern I have with enclosures - is that they'll be a lot slower - right?

What's the fastest enclosure configuration for an nvme/M.2 drive?   I am guessing most enclosures only support PCIe 3.0 x 4 speeds - unless you spend big bucks for PCIe 4.0?

I read it should be 'thunderbolt?'  Huh?

What's the tech for these storage/enclosures nowadays?

 

Or should I just use it in my PC and take up one of the M.2 slots until I need to use the slot for another SSD/OS drive?

 

Edit:   One M.2 slot has an nvme drive for Windows and another one - I am reserving for Linux - that leaves 2 M.2 slots left/open.   

 

My mobo is an Asus Z690-PLUS Tuf Gaming - so, it has 4 M.2 slots.   It also has 4 SATA ports - but, nvme drives are no more expensive - sometimes, even slightly cheaper comparing per GB?   I would get a 4TB eventually - but, right now, probably can only budget for 1TB?   I have around 340 gb of data - I really want to 'back it up' or have a copy on a ssd soon! 

Any recommendations/advice?  TIA.   

[WoodenMarker]

NVMe has less overhead and will perform best. 

You have m.2 slots so use them. 4x slots should be plenty. You can always get an enclosure later if you really need it.

[Paul17]

6 hours ago, WoodenMarker said:

NVMe has much less overhead and will perform best. 

You have m.2 slots so use them. 4x slots should be plenty. You can always get an enclosure later if you really need it.

That is more or less what I was thinking....however, what would be my choices for enclosures?  How fast would the enclosure make it or how much slower?    

[Paul17]

Also, I have....specifically and originally, a WD SN570 1tb pcie 3.0 x 4 - as my Windows OS drive - this was the first drive I bought for my build - it is DRAM-less too - so not ideal - and I am not sure but I think pcie 4.0 x 4 drives weren't out yet or were really expensive.   I later bought a KC 3000 2tb drive - so, I think I should use that as an OS drive.

My idea was to 'convert' that into my main, Windows OS - for e.g. Windows 11 - and then use the SN 570 as my data drive - I think it's pretty slow as drives go nowadays so I'd probably just use it to store data - games, files, programs etc. - does that make sense?

I'd use the other drive - for gaming, programs - to run in real time - since it's the fastest drive.

 

The 1tb I was thinking of buying for storage - I am now thinking I should buy a decent one - like the KC 3000 - so that kind of tier/performance for the 'Linux drive' - does this make sense?  I'd like to get another 2tb drive - but, these are $170 CAD and up in Canada - so, kinda expensive - the typical price is probably closer to $200 - the ones for around $170 are on sale - and probably just cuz of the season - not sure they will stay at that price.

However, 1tb drives aren't priced really 'budget friendly' either - the 'cheapos' are almost all dram-less - and they are with questionable quality/qc - and iffy controllers - these are the Chinese makes - at the lower tier scale - not big name brands - also, some that are brand names - are the lower tier dram-less - and I probably wouldn't want to use any as an OS drive.   So, price will probably closer to $100/1tb - so not really a good deal $/gb.   Oh well.   

[WoodenMarker]

17 hours ago, Paul17 said:

That is more or less what I was thinking....however, what would be my choices for enclosures?  How fast would the enclosure make it or how much slower?    

There aren't many tests on how exactly a drive's performance is affected when used in an m.2 slot vs. being adapted in an enclosure. 

It will be slower due to overhead and be capped by the max bandwidth supported by the enclosure. 

 

Your motherboard has:

- an internal thunderbolt 4 header which a thunderbolt expansion card can be plugged into. This is an expensive (200-300 CAD when including enclosure) way to get less performance out of your drive compared to just plugging it into the motherboard. 

- usb 3.2 gen 2 type-a which is limited to 10 gbps so max speed is ~1GB/s from an enclosure that can plug directly into the back of the motherboard.

Most cheap nvme enclosures can do this fine: https://www.amazon.ca/ORICO-Enclosure-External-Adapter-Max-M2PV/dp/B08DCXB3CD

Compare this to gen3 nvme drives that average ~3GB/s sequential or gen4 nvme drives that average ~5GB/s and up to 7GB/s when plugged into the motherboard.

[Paul17]

6 hours ago, WoodenMarker said:

There aren't many tests on how exactly a drive's performance is affected when used in an m.2 slot vs. being adapted in an enclosure. 

It will be slower due to overhead and be capped by the max bandwidth supported by the enclosure. 

 

Your motherboard has:

- an internal thunderbolt 4 header which a thunderbolt expansion card can be plugged into. This is an expensive (200-300 CAD when including enclosure) way to get less performance out of your drive compared to just plugging it into the motherboard. 

- usb 3.2 gen 2 type-a which is limited to 10 gbps so max speed is ~1GB/s from an enclosure that can plug directly into the back of the motherboard.

Most cheap nvme enclosures can do this fine: https://www.amazon.ca/ORICO-Enclosure-External-Adapter-Max-M2PV/dp/B08DCXB3CD

Compare this to gen3 nvme drives that average ~3GB/s sequential or gen4 nvme drives that average ~5GB/s and up to 7GB/s when plugged into the motherboard.

Thanks!  That's an informative and interesting reply!   That's the info I was looking for.   Hmmmm.... unless the nvme M.2 ports are filled, it sounds like I am better off just buying an (M.2/nvme) ssd and plugging it into the motherboard.....     -  regardless of whether it's 1tb to 4tb....

 

It just sucks to have to use up a port if I only get a 1tb - whereas it wouldn't matter with the enclosure.   

 

The cheapest (CAD) M.2 nvme drives in 4TB are over $300 - so, the Thunderbolt 4 option doesn't seem to make much sense despite being slightly cheaper - actually, that's probably the main reason and you get a reduced speed?   A 2tb ssd might be a decent compromise - some are slightly under $200.

 

It still shocks me that old tech. - 4tb SATA SSD drives -are as expensive as nvme - and they're way slower - in fact, in many cases, more $$ - and not as many choices/options.   

[WoodenMarker]

20 hours ago, Paul17 said:

It just sucks to have to use up a port if I only get a 1tb 

This is probably the most effective option.

By the time you run out of slots and need more capacity, drives are likely more affordable and replacing the 1TB for a larger capacity may be more cost-effective overall. 

Quote

so, the Thunderbolt 4 option doesn't seem to make much sense despite being slightly cheaper

The price mentioned earlier is just for the enclosure and expansion card without accounting for the cost of the drive. 

Quote

It still shocks me that old tech. - 4tb SATA SSD drives -are as expensive as nvme - and they're way slower - in fact, in many cases, more $$ - and not as many choices/options.  

That's because they both use nand flash which makes up most of the cost. 

[Mark Kaine]

Its also often over estimated how much this all actually matters... i have 2 "slow" usb 3.5" external drives... zero issues playing games on them...

you want A a fast OS drive(s) and B even semi decent ssd/hdd(s) should be good for almost anything. 

 

personally i prefer not having spinning rust in my pc, hence external... windows just doesn't seem to like internal hdds (at all) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[Mark Kaine]

On 12/11/2024 at 11:46 AM, Paul17 said:

It still shocks me that old tech. - 4tb SATA SSD drives -are as expensive as nvme - and they're way slower - in fact, in many cases, more $$ - and not as many choices/options.   

depends on dram etc... also a "fast nvme" is really only as good as the slowest "other" drive(s) it doesn't really make sense to mix super fast nvmes with slower ones IMHO.

 

Also many nvmes run hot... which is why i specifically bought a slower one... it's technically still "too fast" but since its the OS drive at least i have low boot times... i guess?  

[Paul17]

14 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

Its also often over estimated how much this all actually matters... i have 2 "slow" usb 3.5" external drives... zero issues playing games on them...

you want A a fast OS drive(s) and B even semi decent ssd/hdd(s) should be good for almost anything. 

 

personally i prefer not having spinning rust in my pc, hence external... windows just doesn't seem to like internal hdds (at all) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

That's a good point.   I really don't/didn't want a HDD - the only reason I'd consider it is because it's cheaper per GB - but, I have the same thought - I don't want the spinning hardware - I don't want the bigger frame, the noise and cables.   

 

14 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

depends on dram etc... also a "fast nvme" is really only as good as the slowest "other" drive(s) it doesn't really make sense to mix super fast nvmes with slower ones IMHO.

 

Also many nvmes run hot... which is why i specifically bought a slower one... it's technically still "too fast" but since its the OS drive at least i have low boot times... i guess?  

Is it really that much hotter - what about heat sinks - it's an interesting reason - and idea.

Since, my drives will have some content creation work - I think I read - it's better to avoid dram-less drives?  I don't think I need the fastest - but, I was looking out for ones that have dram cache.   

Also, the dram-less drives supposedly have a lower life-span (more wear and tear).   So, even if it runs on less power, maybe that benefit gets canceled out?

[Mark Kaine]

1 hour ago, Paul17 said:

That's a good point.   I really don't/didn't want a HDD - the only reason I'd consider it is because it's cheaper per GB - but, I have the same thought - I don't want the spinning hardware - I don't want the bigger frame, the noise and cables.   

 

Is it really that much hotter - what about heat sinks - it's an interesting reason - and idea.

Since, my drives will have some content creation work - I think I read - it's better to avoid dram-less drives?  I don't think I need the fastest - but, I was looking out for ones that have dram cache.   

Also, the dram-less drives supposedly have a lower life-span (more wear and tear).   So, even if it runs on less power, maybe that benefit gets canceled out?

yeah the fastest nvmes really *are* that much hotter... and a heatsink... sure, it'll just be right under the gpu most likely... and can't be too big either. 

 

i think the question is really why the need for fastest, especially if you mix it up with slower ones?

 

typically IRL the speed "advantage" isn't even noticeable, in most tasks.

 

and yes, heat may or may not be a problem depending on case cooling etc. 

 

tldr: the highest speed nvms aren't worth it imho, outside of some niche use cases (like copying a lot of stuff)

[Paul17]

How do you know if an nvme drive has DRAM or not?   I read that it's advised to get an ssd with DRAM if using it in an enclosure.   

 

I was wondering if it is worth it to get a (slightly?) more expensive SSD if it has dram - if you're using it in an enclosure?   What if it's 1tb, 2tb or 4tb?   Does it matter?

 

If some miracle happens one day and I can get a 4tb nvme M.2 ssd for my PC - I will need the storage space eventually - for what I do - occasional gaming, content creation - so I will need lots of storage space eventually - I am hoping to get a 4tb nvme m.2 ssd down the line.  I am seeing various prices - here, they are all over the place but one thing I am noticing (a pattern) - the cheaper ones I assume are DRAM-LESS - and ones with DRAM - are often brand names - about $50 more.   

 

Is it worth it to pay the extra $$?  

 

Edit:  I was thinking - get a 4tb if I can (although, mostly planning - assuming my budget will only allow a 1tb or 2tb) - and it can go in the PC and later in an enclosure.   If I can get a 4tb - then it can go in the PC right away but that's a good amount for either PC or in an enclosure.   That's why I think I should try to get ssds with dram.   

[kokosnh]

So for usb nvme enclosure, the HBM is not working, so there’s a performance hit for all dramless ssd.

but that performance hit is still less then from USB to NVMe bridge, so it matters mainly for sustained writes ( so for example if somebody is doing a backup etc )

I have all my ssd with dram, as they are meant to be fast… 

 

You can check https://www.techpowerup.com/ssd-specs/ or https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B27_j9NDPU3cNlj2HKcrfpJKHkOf-Oi1DbuuQva2gT4/edit

For the spec of the ssd. 

they are usually correct 

[Paul17]

11 hours ago, kokosnh said:

So for usb nvme enclosure, the HBM is not working, so there’s a performance hit for all dramless ssd.

but that performance hit is still less then from USB to NVMe bridge, so it matters mainly for sustained writes ( so for example if somebody is doing a backup etc )

I have all my ssd with dram, as they are meant to be fast… 

 

You can check https://www.techpowerup.com/ssd-specs/ or https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B27_j9NDPU3cNlj2HKcrfpJKHkOf-Oi1DbuuQva2gT4/edit

For the spec of the ssd. 

they are usually correct 

Those are two interesting and useful charts, thanks, kokoshnh! 

 

Are you saying nvme ssds with sdram won't take as much as a performance hit - compared to HMB Nvme SSDs (i.e. dramless ssd) - except all of them will take some hit because of the USB to NVMe bridge?   I think the 1st part is what you said but a bit confused whether the 2nd part of my question makes sense or is correct.

 

The more I read about it - the more I think I want to save up the extra $$ for a ssd with SDRAM - I know there's only certain cases in which I'll get the penalty but, imho - they are manufacturing the dramless ssds to save money and then pass on no savings to the consumer - well, maybe a bit - but, I think the disadvantages should result in a MUCH cheaper ssd - not the measly savings we get - if I have to pay $50 extra - I have compared ssds - and that is what I concluded is the average 'extra cost' - then I guess I would do that.... is that dumb?  I dunno but I don't know where the ssd will go - ultimately, it could go either in my PC - 4tb is a lot - whereas a smaller capacity ssd - I am more likely to eventually use it as an external drive since we only have so many nvme m.2 pcie 4.0 x 4 slots - right?

 

The dramless ssds already have a penalty/disadvantages and if it is further limited to being in an enclosure - I think I'd rather save the extra $$ providing it's not too insane (I think $50 is pretty bad and borderline but I think I'd try to get the extra $).

 

If there's a penalty or performance hit due to being an enclosure - I think I'd have to be careful with price of any of the ssds - if I think its ultimate home would be in an enclosure....does that make sense?   

[kokosnh]

It’s like this.

 

usb to nvme bridge cut all of ssd performance to for example 10Gbps, doesn’t matter if dram, and dramless. 

to that, the dramless ssd will add even more latency and weaker sequential performance as HBM in not working over USB.

 

but the lack of HBM for good TLC dramless ssd will result usually in some added latency, as the sequential writes, as well as random, are already bottleneck by USB to NVMe bridge. ( for cheap 10Gbps usb enclosure )

 

that is till you buy a crappy QLC DRAMless ssd, as they are bad enough that the write performance will drop to like 50-100MBps when the pSLC bufor ends. 
 

you also should take thermals in consideration… 
 

can you tell me what country are you

On 12/10/2024 at 3:37 AM, Paul17 said:

Asus Z690-PLUS Tuf Gaming

You have USB gen 3.2x2 ( 20GBps ), and Thunderbolt™ header on your mobo, you can consider buying USB 4.0 enclosure for ssd. 

[Paul17]

3 hours ago, kokosnh said:

It’s like this.

 

usb to nvme bridge cut all of ssd performance to for example 10Gbps, doesn’t matter if dram, and dramless. 

to that, the dramless ssd will add even more latency and weaker sequential performance as HBM in not working over USB.

 

but the lack of HBM for good TLC dramless ssd will result usually in some added latency, as the sequential writes, as well as random, are already bottleneck by USB to NVMe bridge. ( for cheap 10Gbps usb enclosure )

 

that is till you buy a crappy QLC DRAMless ssd, as they are bad enough that the write performance will drop to like 50-100MBps when the pSLC bufor ends. 

you also should take thermals in consideration… 
 

can you tell me what country are you

You have USB gen 3.2x2 ( 20GBps ), and Thunderbolt™ header on your mobo, you can consider buying USB 4.0 enclosure for ssd. 

Canada.

If you look at PcPartpicker - the 4tb nvme m.2 ssds start at $280 and go up to $350 - which are all dramless until the $350 CAD mark - in which there's one with dram.   The 4tb WD 850X is $7 more.  

I'm wondering about having this plan?:   to buy a 1tb or 2tb w/ dram - for my Linux OS - and then the WD SN570 can go in any cheap enclosure - and just store data on there.   It's really slow - pcie 3.0 x 4 anyway - so I will only use it to hold some data.   I can leave it in the PC for a while - as I have 4 slots on that mobo.   

 

I also want to save up for a 4tb ssd w/ sdram - and I'll leave it in the PC - taking up one of the 4 slots - for e.g. the KC3000 - I don't have $350 CAD right now, though.      I don't see the point of spending an extra $90+ on a Thunderbolt 4/USB 4 enclosure for it unless I suddenly can get a 2nd dram nvme 4tb drive.    I'd probably want one eventually - and that's what I'd do because I'd be out of nvme m.2 slots by then or almost.

 

So, cheapest dram-less 4tb M.2 nvme ssd to one with dram - is a difference of $70.

 

Of course, all these prices and availability can change anytime - and probably will soon - with the tarriffs/taxes etc. changes to inevitably arrive down the road.  

 

Edit:  in the PC right now:   1tb SN570 - pcie 3.0 x 4 (Windows 11 - upgr. from Windows 10 - out of disk space or close - also, I think the OS is corrupt - I had BSOD til I replaced the memory/sticks - still don't trust the OS, though); 2tb KC3000 - empty as of now - the plan is to install Windows 11 on that one.  

 

Two M.2 slots are currently empty  - I want at least 2 more - minimum - 1 nvme m.2 ssd for a Linux OS - and 1 (preferably 4tb) for storage.   The 'storage' one is probably more urgent - but 4tb is pretty expensive!