Secretlabs 2024 Titan Evo: Less than a year old, failed twice, lied about turnaround time, refused to recognize tax exemption status

[Kazlehoff]

Name of Brand:
Secret labs

 

Description of your issue:

In January of 2024, i bought a secret labs chair (in case any SL staff see this: #57231383CA). at the time, i requested an invoice generated with a tax exemption i have (Canadian certificate of indigenous status). Secret labs said tax exempt status did not apply because the shipping address was not on a reservation. the law states that it doesn't need to be, the tax exempt status applies to any item which can be taken to the reservation.

 

But... they were an LTT Sponsor. they made a good product! they were respected and reliable! i decided to bite the bullet and buy one. ~$800 canadian.

 

The chair arrived defective. under-seat tilt mechanism would not lock. less than 2 hours after building the chair, i was already putting in an RMA request. an RMA which took two full weeks to resolve.

 

but okay. things happen right? they're still an LTT sponsor! people all over still recommend them!

 

on sunday night after a long day of taking my kid around to christmas themed stuff in Toronto, i got home, sat down in my chair, it FLOPPED backward and there was a snap or click sound. and it would not come back up.

in less than a year, the same part (under seat tilting mechanism) had failed not once, but twice.

 

So i reached out to secret labs immediately to request an RMA (in case anyone from Secret lab sees this: ticket number: 2232835). I was told that someone would be back to me on Monday or Tuesday.

here we are at end of business day on Tuesday and i don't have a response. so as i told them, I'm going to start telling people about my experience. 
Shoulda gotten a Herman Miller. a decision that i will absolutely ensure that i, and my family and friends and co-workers and the lady who walks her dog every morning at 7:26 is going to hear about.

 

First they prevented me from using my government provided tax exemption.

Then they shipped me broken goods.

Then they shipped me a replacement part that did not even last a year

Then they told me they'd get back to me in a timeframe they clearly couldnt meet the expectation of.

 

Have you tried solving your issue through the brand's customer support channel? If so, what was the result?

 

Yes. Detailed above. TLDR was sold a chair that came broken out of the box, then was shipped replacement parts that didn't last a year, then they didn't follow up within their mandated timeframe.

 

 

What would an ideal resolution of your issue look like?

 

- A refund of the difference i paid for the tax exemption

- a properly tested replacement part that will actually last the full warranty period (5 years)

[TheMrMoose]

I'm not someone with indigenous status, but I am an accountant in Canada. To my understanding, they are correct in saying that they can only apply the exemption if they are delivering to a reserve. I'm not saying you're wrong, but are you able to point me to which part of the law you are referring to that indicates otherwise? 

As for the rest of your issues, that's unfortunate. Hopefully someone can get you help from Secret Lab

[Kazlehoff]

17 minutes ago, TheMrMoose said:

I'm not someone with indigenous status, but I am an accountant in Canada. To my understanding, they are correct in saying that they can only apply the exemption if they are delivering to a reserve. I'm not saying you're wrong, but are you able to point me to which part of the law you are referring to that indicates otherwise? 

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/businesses/topics/gst-hst-businesses/charge-collect-indigenous-peoples.html

Unless Secret Labs specifically has undergone the requirements needed to qualify as a "remote store", then under the table "How the GST/HST applies to property" example 4 would apply rather than example 5. 
at no point did they demonstrate that they had obtained "remote store" status.

 

Edit: in case you want to say "well i don't think that secret labs needs to qualify as they are not a retailer who with "significant sales to Indians, Indian bands and band-empowered entities", i would say that i don't see a definition of "significant" and that an 800 dollar chair WAS a pretty significant purchase to me.

 

EDITEDIT: I use the term "Indian" here because that's (apparently, what the heck, Canadian government.) the legal term used in the documentation.

[TheMrMoose]

3 minutes ago, Kazlehoff said:

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/businesses/topics/gst-hst-businesses/charge-collect-indigenous-peoples.html

Unless Secret Labs specifically has undergone the requirements needed to qualify as a "remote store", then under the table "How the GST/HST applies to property" example 4 would apply rather than example 5. 
at no point did they demonstrate that they had obtained "remote store" status.

Under example 4 in that table, it specifically says that GST/HST applies.

[Kazlehoff]

Apologies for fully deleting my post instead of editing. it wouldn't let me remove a quote box.

 

I can appreciate you're trying to be accurate here, but, i can assure you, at least here in ontario, you can walk into any store, buy stuff that isn't food (because its already not taxed) that you can take back to the reservation, present your card, and use the tax exemption.

 

I must admit that i grew up most of my life not having the status card, as i applied when i was younger and the government never responded to my application, and i therefore thought i wasn't eligible. i only reapplied last year because i found out both my sisters got theirs.

 

I may not know the right bits of code to quote here. 

 

in any case, i shouldn't have to prove why i CAN use an exemption past presenting the card. the company should have have to prove why they shouldn't have to. and they didn't do that, they just said no, quoted something that isn't true, and that was that.

 

And all of this is a fairly big aside from the issue at hand. my 800 dollar chair has broken twice in a year, And Secretlabs said they'd be in touch about it in 24-48 and here we are with no contact yet.

 

[TheMrMoose]

On 12/3/2024 at 3:01 PM, Kazlehoff said:

Apologies for fully deleting my post instead of editing. it wouldn't let me remove a quote box.

 

I can appreciate you're trying to be accurate here, but, i can assure you, at least here in ontario, you can walk into any store, buy stuff that isn't food (because its already not taxed) that you can take back to the reservation, present your card, and use the tax exemption.

 

I must admit that i grew up most of my life not having the status card, as i applied when i was younger and the government never responded to my application, and i therefore thought i wasn't eligible. i only reapplied last year because i found out both my sisters got theirs.

 

I may not know the right bits of code to quote here. 

 

in any case, i shouldn't have to prove why i CAN use an exemption past presenting the card. the company should have have to prove why they shouldn't have to. and they didn't do that, they just said no, quoted something that isn't true, and that was that.

 

And all of this is a fairly big aside from the issue at hand. my 800 dollar chair has broken twice in a year, And Secretlabs said they'd be in touch about it in 24-48 and here we are with no contact yet.

 

Sorry I'm not trying to be combative either, just trying to get information for everyone (Including LMG and Secretlab) is on the same page as what the ask is from Secretlab, what is being done incorrectly, and what the resolution in your case would be. So from what I read, 5% sales tax (Federal Portion of the HST) is still applicable to the purchase while the 8% provincial portion is not and should NOT have been charged.

 

As you said though, pretty insignificant compared to the faulty chair. Hopefully someone from the LMG team can get that can get resolved for you.

The only silver lining here is that you should be able to apply to get the 8% HST back from the Ontario Government if you were charged.

 

*Edit* For context here, the number of times I've seen someone claim on this forum and on the LTT reddit that "What XYZ company is doing is against the law" and to have it be completely false is pretty large. So I figured I would at least try to get clarification or at least a better understanding for myself here since it has to do with something I deal with daily, that being taxes.
 

[Kazlehoff]

1 hour ago, TheMrMoose said:

Sorry I'm not trying to be combative either, just trying to get information for everyone (Including LMG and Secretlab) is on the same page as what the ask is from Secretlab, what is being done incorrectly, and what the resolution in your case would be. So from what I read, 5% sales tax (Federal Portion of the HST) is still applicable to the purchase while the 8% provincial portion is not and should NOT be have been charged.

 

As you said though, pretty insignificant compared to the faulty chair. Hopefully someone from the LMG team can get that can get resolved for you.

The only silver lining here is that you should be able to apply to get the 8% HST back from the Ontario Government if you were charged.

 

*Edit* For context here, the number of times I've seen someone claim on this forum and on the LTT reddit that "What XYZ company is doing is against the law" and to have it be completely false is pretty large. So I figured I would at least try to get clarification or at least a better understanding for myself here since it has to do with something I deal with daily, that being taxes.
 

Appreciate the clarification. I dont know that what they did was "against the law" or just "a bad interpretation of the law" but it kind of set the rest of the mood when it came to the purchasing process.

 

Honestly in the end i would be fine dropping that bit if it meant getting the issue resolved in the timeframe they had told me about. its there more for further info mostly. would I like to get back 5% on an 800 dollar purchase? you betcha, but fourty dollars isnt going to make a real difference one way or the other. it was more that, like i said, it set the tone of the interaction. 

[BillBill]

4 hours ago, Kazlehoff said:

Name of Brand:
Secret labs

 

Description of your issue:

In January of 2024, i bought a secret labs chair (in case any SL staff see this: #57231383CA). at the time, i requested an invoice generated with a tax exemption i have (Canadian certificate of indigenous status). Secret labs said tax exempt status did not apply because the shipping address was not on a reservation. the law states that it doesn't need to be, the tax exempt status applies to any item which can be taken to the reservation.

 

But... they were an LTT Sponsor. they made a good product! they were respected and reliable! i decided to bite the bullet and buy one. ~$800 canadian.

 

The chair arrived defective. under-seat tilt mechanism would not lock. less than 2 hours after building the chair, i was already putting in an RMA request. an RMA which took two full weeks to resolve.

 

but okay. things happen right? they're still an LTT sponsor! people all over still recommend them!

 

on sunday night after a long day of taking my kid around to christmas themed stuff in Toronto, i got home, sat down in my chair, it FLOPPED backward and there was a snap or click sound. and it would not come back up.

in less than a year, the same part (under seat tilting mechanism) had failed not once, but twice.

 

So i reached out to secret labs immediately to request an RMA (in case anyone from Secret lab sees this: ticket number: 2232835). I was told that someone would be back to me on Monday or Tuesday.

here we are at end of business day on Tuesday and i don't have a response. so as i told them, I'm going to start telling people about my experience. 
Shoulda gotten a Herman Miller. a decision that i will absolutely ensure that i, and my family and friends and co-workers and the lady who walks her dog every morning at 7:26 is going to hear about.

 

First they prevented me from using my government provided tax exemption.

Then they shipped me broken goods.

Then they shipped me a replacement part that did not even last a year

Then they told me they'd get back to me in a timeframe they clearly couldnt meet the expectation of.

 

Have you tried solving your issue through the brand's customer support channel? If so, what was the result?

 

Yes. Detailed above. TLDR was sold a chair that came broken out of the box, then was shipped replacement parts that didn't last a year, then they didn't follow up within their mandated timeframe.

 

 

What would an ideal resolution of your issue look like?

 

- A refund of the difference i paid for the tax exemption

- a properly tested replacement part that will actually last the full warranty period (5 years)

For places that do not offer an tax exemption. Could you provide a receipt the next time your file taxes? And get that back from the government.  

[Secretlab_Maisie]

7 hours ago, Kazlehoff said:

Name of Brand:
Secret labs

 

Description of your issue:

In January of 2024, i bought a secret labs chair (in case any SL staff see this: #57231383CA). at the time, i requested an invoice generated with a tax exemption i have (Canadian certificate of indigenous status). Secret labs said tax exempt status did not apply because the shipping address was not on a reservation. the law states that it doesn't need to be, the tax exempt status applies to any item which can be taken to the reservation.

 

But... they were an LTT Sponsor. they made a good product! they were respected and reliable! i decided to bite the bullet and buy one. ~$800 canadian.

 

The chair arrived defective. under-seat tilt mechanism would not lock. less than 2 hours after building the chair, i was already putting in an RMA request. an RMA which took two full weeks to resolve.

 

but okay. things happen right? they're still an LTT sponsor! people all over still recommend them!

 

on sunday night after a long day of taking my kid around to christmas themed stuff in Toronto, i got home, sat down in my chair, it FLOPPED backward and there was a snap or click sound. and it would not come back up.

in less than a year, the same part (under seat tilting mechanism) had failed not once, but twice.

 

So i reached out to secret labs immediately to request an RMA (in case anyone from Secret lab sees this: ticket number: 2232835). I was told that someone would be back to me on Monday or Tuesday.

here we are at end of business day on Tuesday and i don't have a response. so as i told them, I'm going to start telling people about my experience. 
Shoulda gotten a Herman Miller. a decision that i will absolutely ensure that i, and my family and friends and co-workers and the lady who walks her dog every morning at 7:26 is going to hear about.

 

First they prevented me from using my government provided tax exemption.

Then they shipped me broken goods.

Then they shipped me a replacement part that did not even last a year

Then they told me they'd get back to me in a timeframe they clearly couldnt meet the expectation of.

 

Have you tried solving your issue through the brand's customer support channel? If so, what was the result?

 

Yes. Detailed above. TLDR was sold a chair that came broken out of the box, then was shipped replacement parts that didn't last a year, then they didn't follow up within their mandated timeframe.

 

 

What would an ideal resolution of your issue look like?

 

- A refund of the difference i paid for the tax exemption

- a properly tested replacement part that will actually last the full warranty period (5 years)

Hi Kazlehoff, I'm a community manager with Secretlab, sorry to hear about your experience. I've raised your case with the relevant teams to look into and will get our support team to drop you a response as soon as possible, so do keep a lookout for their email in your inbox.

 

If you still need more assistance on your case, do drop me a DM and I'll be able to assist you further. Thank you.

[Kazlehoff]

11 hours ago, BillBill said:

For places that do not offer an tax exemption. Could you provide a receipt the next time your file taxes? And get that back from the government.  

Because January 2024 was under last year's tax filings, at this point, no. I could have in March, but i wasn't yet aware of the mechanisms.

 

Like i said above though. its $40. it doesnt break the bank. i decided at the time to proceed without it, but the experience left a bad taste.

8 hours ago, Secretlab_Maisie said:

Hi Kazlehoff, I'm a community manager with Secretlab, sorry to hear about your experience. I've raised your case with the relevant teams to look into and will get our support team to drop you a response as soon as possible, so do keep a lookout for their email in your inbox.

 

If you still need more assistance on your case, do drop me a DM and I'll be able to assist you further. Thank you.

I see they've now emailed me. i'll update soon as i can, its a busy day today.

 

last night i got home from work and my chair was in the upright position. however now  it doesnt lock upright, the locking lever is jammed, and theres a tinkling sound from inside the base. i beleive something's snapped off inside.

[wanderingfool2]

20 hours ago, Kazlehoff said:

Secret labs said tax exempt status did not apply because the shipping address was not on a reservation. the law states that it doesn't need to be, the tax exempt status applies to any item which can be taken to the reservation.

I mean strictly speaking you are both sort of wrong in this case.  To clarify, any indigenous person where the item is shipped off reservation would not qualify for tax exemption, aside from the exemption of Ontario...but with the exemption it forms it more as a rebate, so it's up to the retailer if they want to do the paperwork and offer something with no tax or leave it up to you to claim it from the ministry.

 

Quote

Vendors can provide this rebate at the time of purchase or customers can apply for the rebate from the Ministry of Finance after they have completed a purchase.

Where a supplier does not provide the rebate at the point-of-sale, purchasers may apply to the Ministry of Finance for a rebate by completing an Application for Rebate of the Ontario Portion of the HST for First Nations form.

Even then, 5% tax still applies (and depending on how/what a computer chair is classified as potentially 13%)

 

I'm all for you calling out SL, but it really weakens an argument when you accuse SL of doing something that they are entitled to do while making it appear as though they were breaking the law.

 

So really, at that point it's on you to do all the paperwork needed to get your rebate.  After the sale they wouldn't really be allowed to based on what I've read.

 

*From the perspective of a business though, submitting a tax emption form can take a few extra minutes of work and in the case of the exemption of Ontario potentially extra filings at the end of the year; so from their perspective it could potentially eat into their margins...albeit I think SL has probably large margins, but it's a consideration for businesses that have tight margins where you effectively could be costing them money to offer the tax exemption*

 

20 hours ago, Kazlehoff said:

So i reached out to secret labs immediately to request an RMA (in case anyone from Secret lab sees this: ticket number: 2232835). I was told that someone would be back to me on Monday or Tuesday.

You do realize Black Friday and Cyber Monday just ended?  Customer service probably is swamped...everyplace that I interacted yesterday still had at least an hours wait to get through to anyone.  Other examples, out of 3 of my orders where it's usually 24 hour fulfillment, it's now in the 48 - 72 hour range.

 

I mean it would be different if you waited multiple days past their typical response times, you didn't even give them an extra 24 hours to see if they might have contacted you.  Yes, the mechanism is a bad thing and you do have a gripe with that and that should be the focus; but I mean come on, one should typically wait more than 2 days when you get a canned response like "We'll get back to you in 1 - 2 business days"...especially around a time when things get swamped

[BillBill]

21 hours ago, Kazlehoff said:

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/businesses/topics/gst-hst-businesses/charge-collect-indigenous-peoples.html

Unless Secret Labs specifically has undergone the requirements needed to qualify as a "remote store", then under the table "How the GST/HST applies to property" example 4 would apply rather than example 5. 
at no point did they demonstrate that they had obtained "remote store" status.

 

Edit: in case you want to say "well i don't think that secret labs needs to qualify as they are not a retailer who with "significant sales to Indians, Indian bands and band-empowered entities", i would say that i don't see a definition of "significant" and that an 800 dollar chair WAS a pretty significant purchase to me.

 

EDITEDIT: I use the term "Indian" here because that's (apparently, what the heck, Canadian government.) the legal term used in the documentation.

Is there a way to file it on your upcoming taxes? As in listing it as an oversight from a previous year or some sort to amendment. 

[Kazlehoff]

On 12/4/2024 at 12:36 PM, wanderingfool2 said:

You do realize Black Friday and Cyber Monday just ended?  Customer service probably is swamped...everyplace that I interacted yesterday still had at least an hours wait to get through to anyone.  Other examples, out of 3 of my orders where it's usually 24 hour fulfillment, it's now in the 48 - 72 hour range.

Then they shouldnt have said they would be back to me in the timeframe they stated.

 

22 hours ago, BillBill said:

Is there a way to file it on your upcoming taxes? As in listing it as an oversight from a previous year or some sort to amendment. 

Because January 2024 was under last year's tax filings, at this point, no. I could have in March, but i wasn't yet aware of the mechanisms.

 

 

As an update, i've discovered what happened inside the chair. the top of the tilt mechanisim is plastic and designed for removal (i assume for cleaning or maintainence, though i did not read of any requirement to do so.

this is what i found:

 

From this, it looks like the backstop behind the ratcheting mechanism flat out snapped off. theres also a small black piece that i can not determine the location for.

 

i checked the metal, and it's nonferrous. i dont know what kind of metal it's made of, but it could probably be made of a stronger material, be more reinforced, or both.

 

In any case, The conversation with the Secretlabs techs is ongoing. they are going to send replacement parts, though they wanted yet another identification number off the chair (a third one, now), though why they need so many UUIDs, and Serial numbers is beyond me, especially since none of the numbers they have wanted are the numbers from the part that's broken.