Does the European tech industry have a future ?

[SS451]

So Phillips Europe's biggest tech manufacturer is now looking at an inevitable bankruptcy, a lot of Europe's software makers aren't doing good either with Ubisoft the biggest games manufacturer in Europe looking at some kind of bankruptcy. 

 

With the struggling dominance of American tech and the ascendency of Chinese tech do you think the European tech industry has a future ? 

 

What has been your favorite product from a European hardware manufacturer ? 

 

Is there any European firm shaking things up in software ? 

 

I am going to say why I am making this thread, I want European tech to succeed. I like the EU's consumer protection laws, but industry people in the US always say that the these protections can't exist elsewhere and "it has to be this way" in regards to anti consumer behavior because the business would be unviable and not competitive.  I don't want these people to be proven right. 

[Mihle]

To me there seem to be quite a lot of smaller game developers from Europe.

Ubisoft is far from the only one even if it might be the biggest.

 

For example, developers of these games are all European, there is many more:

BG3, Satisfactory, Factorio, Helldivers, Valheim, Deep rock Galactic.

 

US companies that operate in Europe also have to follow European consumer protection laws.

[Blue4130]

2 hours ago, SS451 said:

So Phillips Europe's biggest tech manufacturer is now looking at an inevitable bankruptcy, a lot of Europe's software makers aren't doing good either with Ubisoft the biggest games manufacturer in Europe looking at some kind of bankruptcy. 

 

With the struggling dominance of American tech and the ascendency of Chinese tech do you think the European tech industry has a future ? 

 

What has been your favorite product from a European hardware manufacturer ? 

 

Is there any European firm shaking things up in software ? 

 

I am going to say why I am making this thread, I want European tech to succeed. I like the EU's consumer protection laws, but industry people in the US always say that the these protections can't exist elsewhere and "it has to be this way" in regards to anti consumer behavior because the business would be unviable and not competitive.  I don't want these people to be proven right. 

CD Project Red seems to be doing ok.

[porina]

ASML, ARM if you count Europe the continent, as opposed to EU.

 

Europe still has a lot going if you look at tech, just not necessarily consumer facing tech. Also still lots of white goods manufacturers if that isn't too low tech.

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

I would separate hardware and software in these discussions, as well as look at different sectors. Not everything is gaming or AI.

 

Philips might not be doing so well (which is a shame for a company with that history), ASML seems to be doing ok. As others already stated, many smaller and larger game studios are in europe; not everything is just Ubisoft and other big name publishers. SAP seems to be doing alright, though they can always become the next Nixdorf.

 

Hardware is a bit more difficult, there are plans for more Intel fabs in EU, but those are not looking too bright at the moment and would be a US company. Infineon, Bosch and a few others are also to produce more stuff in EU again, though the question is how competitive they are in terms of cutting edge processes.

 

With all of this I would keep in mind what the goal is, for example a lot of the chip manufacturing woes are not cutting edge consumer stuff (despite the AI boom) but also microchips and electronics for industrial production. It is pretty clear that they won't be able to build an Intel, TSMC or Samsung competitor up over a few years, but the main goal is to at least ease the other industry's supply-chain dependence on Asia.

[manikyath]

the thing about stuff made in europe is that we arent the sort of people to put a massive flag on the box to announce where it's made, so a lot of made in the eu stuff you'd have to go look to find it.

[LAwLz]

16 hours ago, SS451 said:

So Phillips Europe's biggest tech manufacturer is now looking at an inevitable bankruptcy

Ehm, what? Have I missed something? Where did you hear this?

 

16 hours ago, SS451 said:

a lot of Europe's software makers aren't doing good either

Such as? What do you base these claims on?

 

16 hours ago, SS451 said:

Ubisoft the biggest games manufacturer in Europe looking at some kind of bankruptcy. 

Source?

 

 

It feels like you are making a bunch of wild claims and then want people to discuss the implications of those claims, where we haven't even established that they are true.

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

14 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

It feels like you are making a bunch of wild claims and then want people to discuss the implications of those claims, where we haven't even established that they are true.

Without ever making any contribution themselves, other than asking questions.

[SS451]

19 hours ago, porina said:

ASML, ARM if you count Europe the continent, as opposed to EU.

 

Europe still has a lot going if you look at tech, just not necessarily consumer facing tech. Also still lots of white goods manufacturers if that isn't too low tech.

ARM will probably be made obsolete by RISC V

 

ASML is probably going do be cut out by China, the us blocked a deal for ASML to export equipment to China and now China is going to make their own probably better tech. 

[Mihle]

24 minutes ago, SS451 said:

ARM will probably be made obsolete by RISC V

 

ASML is probably going do be cut out by China, the us blocked a deal for ASML to export equipment to China and now China is going to make their own probably better tech. 

That is a stretch, there isn't any sign of that yet.

[Blue4130]

40 minutes ago, SS451 said:

ARM will probably be made obsolete by RISC V

 

ASML is probably going do be cut out by China, the us blocked a deal for ASML to export equipment to China and now China is going to make their own probably better tech. 

You mean the same way that x86 was made obsolete by arm?

 

You do know that ASML has more customers than those that manufacture in China right? More and more, companies are pulling out of China based factories. They are moving to other cheap labour countries such as Thailand and other SE Asian places that are more west leaning.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, SS451 said:

ARM will probably be made obsolete by RISC V

 

ASML is probably going do be cut out by China, the us blocked a deal for ASML to export equipment to China and now China is going to make their own probably better tech. 

Again with the wild speculation with zero backing.

 

At this point you might as well say "now that we know AMD has developed a super intelligence, how will it impact future CPU designs?".

The entire discussion hinges on the premise that all EU companies are going bankrupt, yet you have so far not provided any evidence or rationale for it, and I can't find anything either.

 

Of course, losing contracts with China is going to hurt profitability, but you can't just look at one event like that and then instantly jump to "the entire company is doomed". 

[Monkey Dust]

One of the problems European tech companies have is access to funding, we don't have anywhere near the amount of venture capital as the US. Getting stuff built, such as factories, is also tricky in many European countries. The situation isn't terminal, but could do with some attention from politicians.

 

Still, it's not all bad. Would you rather fly on an Airbus or a Boeing?

 

[Blue4130]

8 minutes ago, Monkey Dust said:

One of the problems European tech companies have is access to funding, we don't have anywhere near the amount of venture capital as the US. Getting stuff built, such as factories, is also tricky in many European countries. The situation isn't terminal, but could do with some attention from politicians.

 

Still, it's not all bad. Would you rather fly on an Airbus or a Boeing?

 

I'd say you have just as much access to money. Rich silicon valley types will toss their money to any company that they think will profit, regardless of what country they are in.

[Stahlmann]

We are in a global recession. Many companies have have temporary liquidity problems as a result. Some can recover, other's don't. Having a recession every few years is just basic economics at work and it's unavoidable. Some people will lose their job as a result, but most will find other work. I'm of the opinion that if you're good at what you do, and you offer a valuable skill, then you're going to find a new job. If you lose your job, and you can't find a new one, then maybe you didn't offer anything valuable to begin with.

 

Ubisoft is another situation entirely. They're not struggling because of market economics. They're struggling because their products are bad. I doubt they'll go completely bankrupt. But I think they will be going through some big internal restructuring measures before they end up being profitable again. They need to shift their focus back to creating a good product instead of just a product. They've been putting out garbage for the last 10 years. It's not surprising to see they don't sell.

 

It's just the free market at work. It'll pass.

[williamcll]

Maybe if EU doesn't overprice their products the market would be better

[RasOls89]

3 hours ago, williamcll said:

Maybe if EU doesn't overprice their products the market would be better

 

Not really sure what products the EU are setting the price on. Last time I checked it it's the companies that set the prices on products. The prices can of course be high or low depending on the cost of producing products.

 

[ImorallySourcedElectrons]

Philips management went to the Fiorina school of management - sell all the innovative and profitable parts of the company to create short-term profit for the shareholders. 

• Semiconductors became NXP
• A lot of the LED technology was transferred to Lite-On, either by people moving over or licensing.
• Test and measurement was sold off to Fluke, which then got bought by the same assholes who bought Tektronix and they're running both into the ground.
• Lithography equipment became ASML
• Lighting was split off into its own company (Philips Lighting)
• Fundamental research was simply stopped and i'm under the impression that a lot of the staff moved over to Philips Engineering Solutions (which is actually OK to work together with)
• Shapeways (which went bankrupt) was a Philips spin-off
• Televisions were transferred to a joint venture with TPV, who then bought out Philips and fired pretty much all the European staff. (And I was almost a victim of one of the first firing rounds for that one.)
• Audio was split off into Woox and sold to a third party, most of the competent/skilled designers left with this change.
• Most of the European manufacturing plants were closed down in the early 2000s and the equipment was sold to make a quick buck.
• Philips's real-estate was sold to investment companies, used to be that half of Eindhoven was owned by Philips.
• ...

As far as I know, the only thing Philips still does themselves is healthcare (MRI, CT, ultrasound, etc.) and shavers.

 

So instead of blaming it on the EU, maybe first take a look at what managers are doing to generate those one-time profits?

[SS451]

On 11/6/2024 at 3:33 PM, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

Philips management went to the Fiorina school of management - sell all the innovative and profitable parts of the company to create short-term profit for the shareholders. 

• Semiconductors became NXP
• A lot of the LED technology was transferred to Lite-On, either by people moving over or licensing.
• Test and measurement was sold off to Fluke, which then got bought by the same assholes who bought Tektronix and they're running both into the ground.
• Lithography equipment became ASML
• Lighting was split off into its own company (Philips Lighting)
• Fundamental research was simply stopped and i'm under the impression that a lot of the staff moved over to Philips Engineering Solutions (which is actually OK to work together with)
• Shapeways (which went bankrupt) was a Philips spin-off
• Televisions were transferred to a joint venture with TPV, who then bought out Philips and fired pretty much all the European staff. (And I was almost a victim of one of the first firing rounds for that one.)
• Audio was split off into Woox and sold to a third party, most of the competent/skilled designers left with this change.
• Most of the European manufacturing plants were closed down in the early 2000s and the equipment was sold to make a quick buck.
• Philips's real-estate was sold to investment companies, used to be that half of Eindhoven was owned by Philips.
• ...

As far as I know, the only thing Philips still does themselves is healthcare (MRI, CT, ultrasound, etc.) and shavers.

 

So instead of blaming it on the EU, maybe first take a look at what managers are doing to generate those one-time profits?

ASML is such a big deal, that could have been Phllips. So many companies did this, TSMC fun fact could have been a part of Texas Instruments 

[ImorallySourcedElectrons]

9 hours ago, SS451 said:

ASML is such a big deal, that could have been Phllips. So many companies did this, TSMC fun fact could have been a part of Texas Instruments 

For added fun, Philips also has a significant hand in the founding of TSMC. It's hard to overstate just how much Philips was involved in the start and growth of the electronics industry over the years, but in the 80s they switched to profits first and started cutting manufacturing operations and outsourcing en masse.

[Stahlmann]

On 11/6/2024 at 12:13 PM, williamcll said:

Maybe if EU doesn't overprice their products the market would be better

Here in Germany most MSRPs are almost 1:1 compared to the US and after taking differences in our tax system in account. US consumer prices don't include taxes. EU consumer prices already include local tax rates.

 

For example with the 7800X3D:

 

Current US pricing:

$449 before taxes

$449-481.55 after taxes (depending on the state)

 

Current EU pricing:

399,07€ before taxes

474,89€ after taxes

 

However, many EU countries have vastly different tax rates, ranging from 17-28% compared to the US' 0-7.25% range, meaning prices can vary a lot more in the EU.

[Spindel]

Your question is wrong. You ask about consumer tech not tech in general. 

 

Products from companies like Mycronic and ASML is essential in a lot of production in consumer tech, they just don't make stuff you ever come in contact with. 

 

Consumer products ≠ tech industry

 

In software just to name three (given they've been bought up american companies over time) I say Spotify, Skype (yeah Skype is dead now but that tech is integrated in other MS products) and King (makers of Candy Crush Saga) that is probably one of the most profitabel gaming companies around.