in search of the impossible (4070 super with a normal connector)

[Mark Kaine]

im really just mostly curious (but im also thinking i might need to upgrade sooner than i thought in order to play some games that are coming out soon, ie. Monster Hunter Wilds) but the 16pin(?) thing still really bothers me tbh...  its not just the hazards related to it, its also the placement on most cards, yikes!

 

So i found this and it got me thinking...

 

 

see where the connector is...? that's right, on the side where it belongs to so i wouldn't basically have to rebuild my whole pc in order to just change a GPU...

 

however are there any 4070 super that maybe use 2x8 pin connector?  i read there's at least one (Asus) 4070 that does?

 

Also ideally I'd want a white GPU, making things even more difficult...! 

 

Bonus question:  Are Gigabyte 4000 series still shit (cracking issues) or can you buy these nowadays without worry? (because id probably want a Eagle Ice since it just looks like my 3070 Vision OC! so cute!) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

 

 

[Hinjima]

6 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

im really just mostly curious (but im also thinking i might need to upgrade sooner than i thought in order to play some games that are coming out soon, ie. Monster Hunter Wilds) but the 16pin(?) thing still really bothers me tbh...  its not just the hazards related to it, its also the placement on most cards, yikes!

 

So i found this and it got me thinking...

 

 

see where the connector is...? that's right, on the side where it belongs to so o wouldn't basically have to rebuild my whole pc in order to just change a GPU...

 

however are there any 4070 super that maybe use 2x8 pin connector?  i read there's at least one (Asus) 4070 that does?

 

Also ideally I'd want a white GPU, making things even more difficult...! 

 

Bonus question:  Are Gigabyte 4000 series still shit (cracking issues) or can you buy these nowadays without worry? (because id probably want a Eaglr Ice since it just looks like my 3070 Vision OC! so cute!) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

 

 

This 4070 non Super from Maxsun is white and uses a standard 8pin connector.

The backplate however is ehm.. No.

Maxsun is actually quite a reputable GPU brand.

https://www.maxsun.com/products/geforce-rtx-4070-icraft-oc12g-limitedx2?_pos=5&_fid=9e6f920df&_ss=c

[Mark Kaine]

3 minutes ago, Hinjima said:

This 4070 non Super from Maxsun is white and uses a standard 8pin connector.

The backplate however is ehm.. No.

Maxsun is actually quite a reputable GPU brand.

https://www.maxsun.com/products/geforce-rtx-4070-icraft-oc12g-limitedx2?_pos=5&_fid=9e6f920df&_ss=c

well thanks... but im really looking for a super, i don't think a 4070 would be an adequate upgrade (at all) but that's still interesting, im already thinking along those lines, to get something im looking for, I'll probably need to go with some "exotic" manufacturer,  like yeston, igame, etc... (oh gawd, i really want an igame gpu lol...)

 

thing is the Eagle Ice wouldn't cost that much... (any idea about Gigabyte reliability?) 

[Hinjima]

15 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

im really just mostly curious (but im also thinking i might need to upgrade sooner than i thought in order to play some games that are coming out soon, ie. Monster Hunter Wilds) but the 16pin(?) thing still really bothers me tbh...  its not just the hazards related to it, its also the placement on most cards, yikes!

 

So i found this and it got me thinking...

 

 

see where the connector is...? that's right, on the side where it belongs to so i wouldn't basically have to rebuild my whole pc in order to just change a GPU...

 

however are there any 4070 super that maybe use 2x8 pin connector?  i read there's at least one (Asus) 4070 that does?

 

Also ideally I'd want a white GPU, making things even more difficult...! 

 

Bonus question:  Are Gigabyte 4000 series still shit (cracking issues) or can you buy these nowadays without worry? (because id probably want a Eagle Ice since it just looks like my 3070 Vision OC! so cute!) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

 

 

Oh and Gigabyte has addresses PCB cracking issues on the heavier cards like the 4080 and 4090's and they have  looked over the 4070 series of GPU's as well from my understanding.

 

I would feel safe buying a new Gigabyte RTX 4000 series of GPU.

 

 

[Hinjima]

3 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

well thanks... but im really looking for a super, i don't think a 4070 would be an adequate upgrade (at all) but that's still interesting, im already thinking along those lines, to get something im looking for, I'll probably need to go with some "exotic" manufacturer,  like yeston, igame, etc... (oh gawd, i really want an igame gpu lol...)

 

thing is the Eagle Ice wouldn't cost that much... (any idea about Gigabyte reliability?) 

Yeah I gotcha   Yeston and iGame ( colorful ) are both alright brands as well, they just seem a bit 'funky' outside of Asia I guess  

Any particular reason why you dont want the new power connector?  The melting issue has only been on 4090's.

[Mark Kaine]

11 minutes ago, Hinjima said:

Oh and Gigabyte has addresses PCB cracking issues on the heavier cards like the 4080 and 4090's and they have  looked over the 4070 series of GPU's as well from my understanding.

 

I would feel safe buying a new Gigabyte RTX 4000 series of GPU.

 

 

ah, i see, that's good to hear! 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Hinjima said:

Yeah I gotcha   Yeston and iGame ( colorful ) are both alright brands as well, they just seem a bit 'funky' outside of Asia I guess  

Any particular reason why you dont want the new power connector?  The melting issue has only been on 4090's.

 

honestly its mostly the placement,  right in the middle of the card...idk why but my pci cables really seem to be a bit shorter than most, maybe they're just not as flexible though, basically I'd just want to avoid putting to much strain on them... see picture of the TUF, the connector really is way on the side, instead of in the middle... 

 

oh and really? i thought it was 4080s as well , but yeah i guess you're right and the melting shouldn't happen on a 4070 super.

 

ps: colorful / igame really has some funny looking cards, but it's apparently difficult/ expensive to even get them here in Europe (unless you buy at aliexpress i guess )

 

 

 

 

[manikyath]

the connector is fine, it's just really finnicky to get it plugged in ALL THE WAY, and the latches on them really are subpar for the total amount of wire gauge coming out of them.

 

from my tinkering with the 12-pin on my 4070 super, i think it's safe to say it's fine as long as you make very sure to put it in properly, and that tension on the cable wont make it try to escape.

 

on the note of overloading plugs though.. that single 8-pin on the mentioned RTX 4070 basicly has to rely on PCIe slot power to meet it's 200 watt tdp. the GTX970 was a 150 watt card and often had more than one 6+2pin.

[Mark Kaine]

3 minutes ago, manikyath said:

the connector is fine, it's just really finnicky to get it plugged in ALL THE WAY, and the latches on them really are subpar for the total amount of wire gauge coming out of them.

 

from my tinkering with the 12-pin on my 4070 super, i think it's safe to say it's fine as long as you make very sure to put it in properly, and that tension on the cable wont make it try to escape.

 

on the note of overloading plugs though.. that single 8-pin on the mentioned RTX 4070 basicly has to rely on PCIe slot power to meet it's 200 watt tdp. the GTX970 was a 150 watt card and often had more than one 6+2pin.

 

ya, you see that is literally the issue im afraid of...

 

 

how in the world am i supposed to reach a plug that's in the "middle" of the card, it seems impossible...  i guess the adapter would add some length,  but probably not enough... (yeah those cables are probably the only downside of Corsair PSUs, because what actually is this... my bequiet PSU had *flat* cables in comparison.. ) 

 

 

[Hinjima]

9 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

ah, i see, that's good to hear! 

 

 

 

honestly its mostly the placement,  right in the middle of the card...idk why but my pci cables really seem to be a bit shorter than most, maybe they're just not as flexible though, basically I'd just want to avoid putting to much strain on them... see picture of the TUF, the connector really is way on the side, instead of in the middle... 

 

oh and really? i thought it was 4080s as well , but yeah i guess you're right and the melting shouldn't happen on a 4070 super.

 

ps: colorful / igame really has some funny looking cards, but it's apparently difficult/ expensive to even get them here in Europe (unless you buy at aliexpress i guess )

 

 

 

 

What about the ''Zotac 4070 super twin edge oc white''  This one is nice looking with the connector on the end.

 

The melting problem has been quite overblown in the tech media.

Yes, its an issue.. Yes, it should NOT happen to new cards and connectors. It can be dangerous.

But the amount of affected people is lower than 0.1% of RTX 4000 owners.

Never heard of a 4070 series card melt.

 

I feel 100% safe using the included adapter with my MSI 4080 Gaming X Trio, overclocked the card a lot and I daily see 320w+ pulled.

 

Yes, its very difficult to find Yeston, Colorful and similar cards in Europe.. I live in Norway and we barely stock anything at all.

We don't even have Amazon.

 

 

 

[manikyath]

1 minute ago, Mark Kaine said:

how in the world am i supposed to reach a plug that's in the "middle" of the card, it seems impossible

you've got miles of length on those cables, also you get a 10-ish cm adapter cable in the box to convert from 8-pins to 12-pin.

[Mark Kaine]

20 minutes ago, Hinjima said:

What about the ''Zotac 4070 super twin edge oc white''  This one is nice looking with the connector on the end.

 

i saw several white Zotacs, but didn't notice the connector on the side,  that would definitely be an option, and i suppose the twin fans shouldn't be an issue since its a relatively low powered card?

 

... standard specs say 220W...? that's 50W less than my 3070! 

[Hinjima]

5 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

i saw several white Zotacs, but didn't notice the connector on the side,  that would definitely be an option, and i suppose the twin fans shouldn't be an issue since its a relatively low powered card?

 

... standard specs say 220W...? that's 55W less than my 3070! 

Twin fans should be plenty enough for 220w

The Nvidia engineers did an incredible job in designing the RTX 4000 series in terms of efficiency, its actually brilliant.

 

I had a dual fan Palit 2080 Super Gamerock ( 250w stock ) that I overclocked.

It was very quiet while keeping the GPU cooled, I was very impressed. 

I am very sensitive to fan noise ( Diagnosed with hyperacusis and misophonia )

I only had stock two front fans on the case as well so airflow wasn't the best.

Never heard the card even during heavy gaming.

 

I wouldn't worry

[Mark Kaine]

22 minutes ago, Hinjima said:

Twin fans should be plenty enough for 220w

The Nvidia engineers did an incredible job in designing the RTX 4000 series in terms of efficiency, its actually brilliant.

 

I had a dual fan Palit 2080 Super Gamerock ( 250w stock ) that I overclocked.

It was very quiet while keeping the GPU cooled, I was very impressed. 

I am very sensitive to fan noise ( Diagnosed with hyperacusis and misophonia )

I only had stock two front fans on the case as well so airflow wasn't the best.

Never heard the card even during heavy gaming.

 

I wouldn't worry

yeah they sure got better over time, my msi 1050ti with 6 pin connector! ran pretty hot... my msi 1060 was ok, but also tended to get hot, the evga 1070 i had... hot hot hot (but fancy looking rgb at least!) my 3070 uses way more power but stays relatively cool most of the time (60C) and yes, i barely hear the fans, but then its also a 3 fan card... still i also think 2 fans should be enough for  a 220w card... I'll definitely keep an eye on it, i mean i really need to do more research (in finding my dream card) and the game isn't coming out in a while,  maybe ill get a 5070 by then, who knows! 

 

(although €700 is max i want to spend realistically...)

[Hinjima]

5 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

yeah they sure got better over time, my msi 1050ti with 6 pin connector! ran pretty hot... my msi 1060 was ok, but also tended to get hot, the evga 1070 i had... hot hot hot (but fancy looking rgb at least!) my 3070 uses way more power but stays relatively cool most of the time (60C) and yes, i barely hear the fans, but then its also a 3 fan card... still i also think 2 fans should be enough for  a 220w card... I'll definitely keep an eye on it, i mean i really need to do more research (in finding my dream card) and the game isn't coming out in a while,  maybe ill get a 5070 by then, who knows! 

 

(although €700 is max i want to spend realistically...)

Not only that. Fan technology++ has also improved over the years that helps keep things quiet and cool.

My 2080 Super dual fan was definiely more quiet than my dual fan 980 Ti ( Both 250w )

 

Two fans is plenty for 220w

I also dont mind my cards running a little bit warmer if I can lower the fan noise.

My 4080 Gaming X Trio wants to stay at 60-63c default but I have a custom fan curve so it runs at 70-72c but I can't hear it at all. To me this is important and 70c is not dangerous at all.

 

Lets see January 6th what Nvidia will announce, some rumors suggest a 5070 announcement as well.

Maybe you can get a good deal on a 4070 Ti or 4070 Ti Super once the 5070 releases.

 

 

 

 

[Mark Kaine]

13 minutes ago, Hinjima said:

Not only that. Fan technology++ has also improved over the years that helps keep things quiet and cool.

My 2080 Super dual fan was definiely more quiet than my dual fan 980 Ti ( Both 250w )

 

Two fans is plenty for 220w

I also dont mind my cards running a little bit warmer if I can lower the fan noise.

My 4080 Gaming X Trio wants to stay at 60-63c default but I have a custom fan curve so it runs at 70-72c but I can't hear it at all. To me this is important and 70c is not dangerous at all.

 

yeah, i agree, whatever suits one better, 70 is still ok for sure, me i don't really care about the fans when playing a game i basically almost never notice the fans, and generally they'd be at like 60-70% max anyway so not too bad, it bothers me more in idle or when i want to sleep but forgot to turn the pc off!

 

 

14 minutes ago, Hinjima said:

Lets see January 6th what Nvidia will announce, some rumors suggest a 5070 announcement as well.

Maybe you can get a good deal on a 4070 Ti or 4070 Ti Super once the 5070 releases.

yeap! depends on pricing but almost feels like buying a gpu at the end of a cycle ain't that clever,  im really happy with my 3070 which i bought right 1-2 months after release and only like 50 bucks over msrp so that definitely was a good deal.

 

 

[Hinjima]

1 minute ago, Mark Kaine said:

yeah, i agree, whatever suits one better, 70 is still ok for sure, me i don't really care about the fans when playing a game i basically almost never notice the fans, and generally they'd be at like 60-70% max anyway so not too bad, it bothers me more in idle or when i want to sleep but forgot to turn the pc off!

 

 

Hah totally understandable.

Most if not all 4070+ class cards have no fan mode on idle and low loads like youtube and light gaming.

No fans until 60c and then they start spinning, you can also change this with a custom fan curve to not have the fans start spinning until 65c etc.

So you can get your beauty sleep without the noise!

[Mark Kaine]

17 minutes ago, Hinjima said:

Hah totally understandable.

Most if not all 4070+ class cards have no fan mode on idle and low loads like youtube and light gaming.

No fans until 60c and then they start spinning, you can also change this with a custom fan curve to not have the fans start spinning until 65c etc.

So you can get your beauty sleep without the noise!

i mean that's all true, but i always hear my pcs fans, the gpu fans don't turn on until like 50c, so even in some games they don't turn on... but i still hear the hum of all other fans constantly,  2 180mm front, two on cpu cooler, psu, 1 exhaust... none of these fans is really loud but all together you definitely hear them!  my old inwin 301 didn't have front mesh, that was definitely like 40% more silent (and around 10C hotter on average) 

 

especially at night it's usually really silent here so it's especially noticeable,  i think in a big city with traffic etc, i probably wouldn't even hear the fans at all lol. 

 

like rn im thinking "hmm my pc sounds loud, what is it doing...?"  but it literally does nothing,  cpu/gpu usage 0%...

 

 

[Tridefender]

I think zephyr offers 1 fan 4070 with 8pin connectors

[Salted Spinach]

4 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

...so i wouldn't basically have to rebuild my whole pc in order to just change a GPU...

No one has had to do that to accommodate the 12vhpwr connector. Just use the adapter that comes in the box (I got one with my Gigabyte Gaming 4070 Super)

 

If the free adapter is too short, just buy a longer one

 

4 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

...however are there any 4070 super that maybe use 2x8 pin connector?  

It has been confirmed that only one such model of 4070 Super was made for purchase

https://videocardz.com/newz/maxsuns-gpu-stands-out-as-the-only-rtx-4070-super-with-a-dual-8-pin-power-connectors

 

4 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

Also ideally I'd want a white GPU, making things even more difficult...! 

Then buy a white one and get a long enough 12vhpwr adapter, or apply a coat of paint on the Maxsun model. You have no other option.

 

Here I will end my discussion on this topic because asking more questions, crying or begging is not going to change the situation.

 

4 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

Are Gigabyte 4000 series still shit (cracking issues) or can you buy these nowadays without worry?

The cracking is due to the PCB at the PCIE finger giving way to the weight of the card when mounted in standard orientation.

 

After I unboxed the Gigabyte Gaming 4070 Super, I had lost all confidence in any card of similar or greater mass being able to hold on without risk of the PCB snapping.

 

So I bought a Deepcool ST500 and now there is no risk of PCB cracking/snapping even with a 10KG weight placed on top of it.

 

I hope people understand it has NEVER been the job of the PCB and PCIE finger to provide structural support. Its one and only job is to be a PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD and signal bridge to the motherboard. It is made of PLASTIC, not metal. Graphics cards of the past (prior to RTX 3000 series) just happened to have been able to get away without need for structural support because they were all light enough.

 

Going to ordinary mount a 5090 or 6090 without using a support bracket or something else to prop it up? Go right ahead

[Mark Kaine]

43 minutes ago, Salted Spinach said:

It has been confirmed that only one such model of 4070 Super that exists

which is funny because A the WHITE VERSION doesn't seem to have the same connector (it says 12+4?) and B this thing has the 2x8 connector in the middle*!  more like fail-tsun, amiright?

 

but interesting nonetheless...

 

 

43 minutes ago, Salted Spinach said:

The cracking is due to the PCB at the PCIE finger giving way to the weight of the card when mounted in standard orientation.

yeah i see, but why are some cards more susceptible than others?

 

43 minutes ago, Salted Spinach said:

No one has had to do that to accommodate the 12vhpwr connector

these cables are too short, always have been and having the connector placed in the middle instead of the side where it should be only exaggerates the issue... yes, the adapter might make them just long enough,  still not ideal or guaranteed...

 

43 minutes ago, Salted Spinach said:

crying

 

making an informed buying decision  =/= crying  

 

and ironically this place is the best place to ask such questions... still tending towards the Eagle Ice OC (even tho it has the ugly fail-connector), but the Zotac(s) also looking good, and who knows what else comes up...

 

43 minutes ago, Salted Spinach said:

You have no other option.

nonsense, there's always BTF, not that I'd want to buy a whole new pc basically,  but it *is* always an option,  Asus even makes a white one (iirc)

 

43 minutes ago, Salted Spinach said:

I bought a Deepcool ST500

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

43 minutes ago, Salted Spinach said:

 because asking more questions [...] is not going to change the situation.

oh, it will ... there's no "situation" anyway,  just a pc gamer looking for a nice white whale gpu... which has never been easy! 

 

43 minutes ago, Salted Spinach said:

Going to ordinary mount a 5090 or 6090 without using a support bracket or something else to prop it up? Go right ahead

some cards are just built differently tho, see my 3070 vision oc, massive aluminum backplate, there's no bending or sagging,  which is why it's important to always do your research and have an idea of what can and cannot work... i admittedly also got lucky because it was like the cheapest none founders 3070 at the time.

 

 

 

*btw i know why, because they actually didn't redesign the pcb and are lazy mofos... this wouldn't have happened had kingpin made it, the dude knows connectors belong on the side! (lol)

 

 

[Salted Spinach]

54 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

...more like fail-tsun, amiright?

Maxsun made them because it would obviously sell.

 

Calling it a failure because they did not design one to your specific liking? Yeah sure. Their customers are happy, Maxsun makes money, and they could not care less about what either of us thinks or discuss here.

 

54 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

yeah i see, but why are some cards more susceptible than others?

Probably a thinner PCB. My 4070 Super is also from Gigabyte and I have no evidence it is not one of those cards with a supposedly weak PCB.

 

However the PCB has had no problem doing its job as a PCB and for reasons explained earlier, my card is not even sagging when made to lift weights. Let alone any signs of PCB cracking.

 

54 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

...just a pc gamer looking for a nice white whale gpu... which has never been easy! 

I have had no problem finding multiple white 4070 Super.

 

Being nitpicky and having special requirements is an entirely separate matter.

 

54 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

some cards are just built differently tho...

Good I shall wait to see someone ordinary mount their 5090 or 6090 that is "built differently" without additional structural support

 

54 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

these cables are too short, always have been and having the connector placed in the middle instead of the side where it should be only exaggerates the issue... yes, the adapter might make them just long enough,  still not ideal or guaranteed...

Thats a you problem. I am one of the vast majority of people who upgraded to a 4070 Super and using the 12vhpwr connector (wherever its placed) without changing any other component or complaining

 

54 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

nonsense, there's always BTF...

Go BTF then. Oh wait, you already eliminated that option yourself. So its not an option.

 

I have also always had the option to pay an AIB parner millions of dollars to create a custom graphics card with ten fans, five 8-pin power connectors, and my name and face inscribed onto it. This has and always will be an option for people who have trouble finding the product to meet their strange requirements

[Tridefender]

6 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

susceptible

Depends on heatsink weight 

[Mark Kaine]

7 hours ago, Salted Spinach said:

So its not an option.

no, it is, but it means basically almost building a completely new pc as i said, which means its not an option right now but at an later date, im already on record saying multiple times my next pc is gonna be BTF ... i can wait, just thinking ahead and also im not that nitpicky i already conceded a few fail-connector cards as an option, but actually there aren't that many choices in white... lots sold out or are extra expensive lol. 

 

2 hours ago, Tridefender said:

Depends on heatsink weight 

but maybe also pcb thickness as @Salted Spinach suggested, idk if different thicknesses is even a thing but its possible...

 

i also actually think structural integrity of the whole card... some cards sag like crazy others don't,  its also the case actually, but not only. that's also why aluminum is good, light, relatively high structural integrity, relatively good heat dissipation... these whole plastic gpus are just horrible in any way in comparison.  

 

[IkeaGnome]

2 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

but maybe also pcb thickness as @Salted Spinach suggested, idk if different thicknesses is even a thing but its possible...

Not as much as they’re implying it is. 
The bigger thing has been the cut out next to the locking finger. The Zotac Twin Edge doesn’t have that. If you’re worried about pcb cracking, just use a brace. I can’t tell if the 4070 super comes with one but the 4090s by Zotac did. 
 

Honestly, I think there’s a lot of over thinking it happening. I have a release day Zotac 4090 and my power cable hasn’t even started to come loose. I plugged in the 12vhpwr with the card out of the system so I could hold the card while I plugged it in then just plugged in the 8 pins like normal. 
 

14 hours ago, Hinjima said:

Yes, its very difficult to find Yeston, Colorful and similar cards in Europe.. I live in Norway and we barely stock anything at all.

We don't even have Amazon.

If you ever want a hand with that let me know. I’m over here now until the end of the year, but I will be back in June for a concert in Trondheim and my wife and I regularly come to Norway. 

[Mark Kaine]

1 minute ago, IkeaGnome said:

Not as much as they’re implying it is. 
The bigger thing has been the cut out next to the locking finger. The Zotac Twin Edge doesn’t have that. If you’re worried about pcb cracking, just use a brace. I can’t tell if the 4070 super comes with one but the 4090s by Zotac did. 
 

Honestly, I think there’s a lot of over thinking it happening. I have a release day Zotac 4090 and my power cable hasn’t even started to come loose. I plugged in the 12vhpwr with the card out of the system so I could hold the card while I plugged it in then just plugged in the 8 pins like normal. 

ok thanks for the info, my main concern is really that my psu cables are slightly shorter than usual so the connector "could" pose an issue if its in the middle of the card, and that i want a white GPU, i mean the silver or whatever the Eagle Ice is could also work, but its also possible i would send it right back if i don't like the color  but that's unlikely i think it'd look good in my case... it almost looks like my Vision OC anyways,  there's also the "Aero" but i think it looks bad...

 

then the whole fail-connector thingie is obviously a concern also, but seems it shouldn't be an issue with a 4070/super ... 

 

so yeah i might be picky, but not nitpicky! well see when the 5000 series launches i guess, the game i wanna play comes out in February or so i think...

 

i might also bite and get one from amazon,  they have return window until January,  nothing wrong with try before you buy, isn't it!?