The only way out of the planned obsolescence hellhole.

[Ertio]

TLDR: We need to build our own stuff.

 

---

 

The right-to-repair movement is taking a wrong approach. That approach is begging to lawmakers who couldn't care less. Hoping and begging is a futile strategy. We can't rely on bureaucrats to give a damn.

 

And brands keep spouting that "we listen to our users" crap. Oh, really? Where are the replaceable batteries we have been asking for since 2015, Samsung? Exactly. In limbo.

 

Samsung be like: "Ha, ha, you keep buying our stuff anyway! Why would we give a damn?"

 

The reality is that there is no incentive for phone manufacturers to make repair-friendly products. Why would they? Samsung realized Apple got away with pulling this off, so they thought "let's throw our principles over board and do it too! For those sugar-sweet profits!". Remember, shareholders buy shares to get profits, not to give you an amazing user experience.(more details in reference [1] at the bottom)

 

Making products hostile to repair increases their profits and us users keep buying their stuff regardless because smartphones are a necessity in this world. With new technology come higher social requirements. Smartphones used to be an optional extra, but now it is difficult to live without one, so smartphone vendors have the ultimate leverage.

 

The most realistic way to get our user-friendly products without planned obsolescence and other evil anti-features (examples at the bottom [2]) is to manufacture them ourselves.

 

Granted, I have no idea how we are supposed to achieve this, but if a few hundred of us and intelligent people like Louis Rossmann and Jody Bruchon came together, perhaps we could do something. It is by any means far more realistic than praying to lawmakers could ever be.

 

Making our own stuff has already worked to some extent on the software side. Sure, Kdenlive and InkScape are less sophisticated than Adobe's counterparts, but still quite useable! And you truly own your copy of them. No one can remotely disable your InkScape, where as Adobe can revoke your access to their software whenever they feel like.

 

It took the EU almost two decades (20 years) to respond to non-replaceable batteries. During that time, non-replaceable batteries escalated to serialized batteries, like a cancer that grew. And then not only smartphones but also laptops had them. This is what happens whenever evilness is not nipped in the bud in early stages: it grows and then takes over.

 

If I could have changed the law, I would have nipped non-replaceable batteries in the bud before the sunrise of January 10th, 2007. I would have said "no more" to this utter nonsense. Why did it take the EU this long to make such an obvious decision?

 

This shows that relying on greedy corporations who throw repairability under the bus to earn 1% more, or lawmakers who are compromised by lobbyism to create us paradise on earth, is a ravenous waste of time.

 

If we want our paradise, we have to build it by ourselves.

 

---

References:

 

[1] On the keynote of the Samsung Galaxy S6 in March 2015, their public relations guy Justin Denison said "we refused to do this for some time until we were absolutely sure that people would be confident about charging their phones", which is utter nonsense because a battery with a limited lifespan that can't be replaced does quite the opposite of making the user confident about charging. Remember, batteries die no matter how well they are cared for.

 

[2] Examples for anti-features include planned obsolescence (notably non-replaceable batteries), kill-switches (your product can be remotely disabled), serialization (denial of third-party repairs), less than three USB ports on laptops (dependence on USB hubs), locked bootloaders (you can not run the operating system (OS) of your choice), software-as-a-service (can be remotely disabled), login enforcement (see iOS, Mac OS, Windows 11), mandatory pull-to-refresh (see Chrome mobile and Safari mobile, causes accidental refreshes), mandatory updates (vendor can remotely modify your operating system at will, see Windows 10 and 11).

 

---

 

This post is released under Creative Commons 4.0 Attribution ShareAlike.

[LAwLz]

Okay, so what are you going to do? 

[Ertio]

3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Okay, so what are you going to do? 

I will have to figure it out. Won't be easy, certainly.

 

But anything is better than begging and hoping lawmakers will listen.

[Dedayog]

13 minutes ago, Ertio said:

TLDR: We need to build our own stuff.

 

 

---

 

The right-to-repair movement is taking a wrong approach. That approach is begging to lawmakers who couldn't care less. Hoping and begging is a futile strategy. We can't rely on bureaucrats to give a damn.

 

And brands keep spouting that "we listen to our users" crap. Oh, really? Where are the replaceable batteries we have been asking for since 2015, Samsung? Exactly. In limbo.

 

Samsung be like: "Ha, ha, you keep buying our stuff anyway! Why would we give a damn?"

 

The reality is that there is no incentive for phone manufacturers to make repair-friendly products. Why would they? Samsung realized Apple got away with pulling this off, so they thought "let's throw our principles over board and do it too! For those sugar-sweet profits!". Remember, shareholders buy shares to get profits, not to give you an amazing user experience.(more details in reference [1] at the bottom)

 

Making products hostile to repair increases their profits and us users keep buying their stuff regardless because smartphones are a necessity in this world. With new technology come higher social requirements. Smartphones used to be an optional extra, but now it is difficult to live without one, so smartphone vendors have the ultimate leverage.

 

The most realistic way to get our user-friendly products without planned obsolescence and other evil anti-features (examples at the bottom [2]) is to manufacture them ourselves.

 

Granted, I have no idea how we are supposed to achieve this, but if a few hundred of us and intelligent people like Louis Rossmann and Jody Bruchon came together, perhaps we could do something. It is by any means far more realistic than praying to lawmakers could ever be.

 

Making our own stuff has already worked to some extent on the software side. Sure, Kdenlive and InkScape are less sophisticated than Adobe's counterparts, but still quite useable! And you truly own your copy of them. No one can remotely disable your InkScape, where as Adobe can revoke your access to their software whenever they feel like.

 

It took the EU almost two decades (20 years) to respond to non-replaceable batteries. During that time, non-replaceable batteries escalated to serialized batteries, like a cancer that grew. And then not only smartphones but also laptops had them. This is what happens whenever evilness is not nipped in the bud in early stages: it grows and then takes over.

 

If I could have changed the law, I would have nipped non-replaceable batteries in the bud before the sunrise of January 10th, 2007. I would have said "no more" to this utter nonsense. Why did it take the EU this long to make such an obvious decision?

 

This shows that relying on greedy corporations who throw repairability under the bus to earn 1% more, or lawmakers who are compromised by lobbyism to create us paradise on earth, is a ravenous waste of time.

 

If we want our paradise, we have to build it by ourselves.

 

 

---

References:

 

[1] On the keynote of the Samsung Galaxy S6 in March 2015, their public relations guy Justin Denison said "we refused to do this for some time until we were absolutely sure that people would be confident about charging their phones", which is utter nonsense because a battery with a limited lifespan that can't be replaced does quite the opposite of making the user confident about charging. Remember, batteries die no matter how well they are cared for.

 

[2] Examples for anti-features include planned obsolescence (notably non-replaceable batteries), kill-switches (your product can be remotely disabled), serialization (denial of third-party repairs), less than three USB ports on laptops (dependence on USB hubs), locked bootloaders (you can not run the operating system (OS) of your choice), software-as-a-service (can be remotely disabled), login enforcement (see iOS, Mac OS, Windows 11), mandatory pull-to-refresh (see Chrome mobile and Safari mobile, causes accidental refreshes), mandatory updates (vendor can remotely modify your operating system at will, see Windows 10 and 11).

 

 

---

 

This post is released under Creative Commons 4.0 Attribution ShareAlike.

What in god's name does this mean?

 

"This post is released under Creative Commons 4.0 Attribution ShareAlike."

 

Also, we get it.  There have been a ton of these, saying the same thing.  Provide at least a possibility of a solution, as repeating it over and over is impotent.

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

9 minutes ago, Ertio said:

I will have to figure it out. Won't be easy, certainly.

 

But anything is better than begging and hoping lawmakers will listen.

So you think you using InkScape is going to convince lawmakers to finally clamp down on Adobe? 

[whispous]

Vague, peppered with half-finished thoughts. Token novelty license message at the end.

 

Self-manufactured products on tiny or even individual scales are orders of magnitude less efficient for materials and energy.

 

Strong, effective regulation with teeth is the way forward to ensure simple reusability/recyclability and repairability.

[ImorallySourcedElectrons]

May I introduce a "Don't attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity."?

 

You attribute certain design decisions to conscious choices, while in reality it's just lemmings trying to cost-down a product to increase the profit margin because some manager is shouting to hit some ludicrous target to get their bonus. This is then inherited into the next design (because designing from scratch is rare), and it gets dragged along. Then you see your competitor is doing this, you make the cost calculation and realise you can increase your profit margin by doing so as well, and that's how shitty features from the competitor also end up in your product.

 

The solution is honestly to vote with your wallet whenever possible, because every company tries to imitate the perceived market leader.

[MC.Morrado]

Based as hell but we can't manufacture our own phones like the children in China who make Nike shoes. Maybe try petitioning for Framework to get on board with making smartphones besides laptops?

 

I've had the same old flip phone for almost 5 years and counting and it has a replaceable battery. I can live perfectly without a smartphone; I don't do any mobile gaming, I mostly use the internet on laptops and desktop computer 95% of the time, use mobile data instead of Wi-Fi for security purposes, and the battery lasts for days on a single charge because I'm not addicted to the damn thing.

[Doobeedoo]

Buy a decent product that can last enough, take care of it and don't support unnecessary consumerism buying stuff all the time or random crap. 

The planned obsolescence started before gadgets, with house stuff like fridges, washing machines, stove etc.. New stuff dies or has issues every few years. Meanwhile if you know someone older with quality made products like these, they easily last 50y and look as new.

[Kisai]

Buy only products you can repair, and if nothing fits your criteria, pick products that are the easiest to disassemble and repair yourself.

 

Alternative solution. Stop buying junk. You do not need a $2000 smartphone or a $5000 laptop. Buy a desktop. Do everything on the desktop, and minimize what you "have to" do on the phone.

 

I am still using the iPhone Xs. My mom was gifted an iPhone 12 by a family member, and she's still using her 10 year old $50 amazon phone as her daily driver. She's also driving a 10 year old car. Heck my Grandma only has an iphone for the exact same reason my mom does. A relative gifted to her, and she doesn't make calls on it, she only talks to family on it (basically my mom and her siblings, and grandma all have iphones only to talk to each other on facetime.)

 

If you want to go in the other direction and do everything on your phone, that comes with the caveat that you are married to that ecosystem forever.

 

 

[Ertio]

5 hours ago, Dedayog said:

What in god's name does this mean?

 

"This post is released under Creative Commons 4.0 Attribution ShareAlike."

It means I give you the permission to repost the text anywhere, but please link back to this thread. (more details)

 

5 hours ago, Dedayog said:

Also, we get it. There have been a ton of these, saying the same thing.

Unfortunately not. You get it, but many people unfortunately don't. Many people wait and hope for a miracle.

5 hours ago, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

So you think you using InkScape is going to convince lawmakers to finally clamp down on Adobe? 

No, but InkScape already makes users less dependent on greedy Adobe. InkScape can get many tasks done that would usually require Adobe's expensive proprietary software.

 

Yes, I know, InkScape can't do everything that Adobe Illustrator does, but it does a good share of those things.

 

3 hours ago, whispous said:

Strong, effective regulation with teeth is the way forward to ensure simple reusability/recyclability and repairability.

Indeed, ideally it would be. However, lawmakers have no incentive to listen to us, or are very slow. What do they gain from listening to us? They gain more from listening to lobbyists who will then fill their pockets with sweet sweet cash.

 

It took the EU 20 years to react in the slightest to non-replaceable batteries. Will it take 20 more years to react to serialization? At that speed, it simply takes too long to get done.

 

[ImorallySourcedElectrons]

1 hour ago, MC.Morrado said:

Based as hell but we can't manufacture our own phones like the children in China who make Nike shoes. Maybe try petitioning for Framework to get on board with making smartphones besides laptops?

 

I've had the same old flip phone for almost 5 years and counting and it has a replaceable battery. I can live perfectly without a smartphone; I don't do any mobile gaming, I mostly use the internet on laptops and desktop computer 95% of the time, use mobile data instead of Wi-Fi for security purposes, and the battery lasts for days on a single charge because I'm not addicted to the damn thing.

The hardware design is relatively straight-forward actually if you're willing to be slightly thicker than the flagships, it's the software eco-system and the legal aspects that make these things tricky to release on larger markets. 

[Ertio]

3 hours ago, MC.Morrado said:

Based as hell but we can't manufacture our own phones like the children in China who make Nike shoes. Maybe try petitioning for Framework to get on board with making smartphones besides laptops?

They probably have already thought about this at some point. If they wanted to do it, they would have already done it.

 

There is also the FairPhone, but it appears it is hardly known and very niche. How does one even advertise such a thing? The masses just care about the next shiny new thing (shiny object syndrome) to show off infront of their friends. They don't care about "will it work in 5 or 10 years?" and only see today and tomorrow.

 

3 hours ago, MC.Morrado said:

I've had the same old flip phone for almost 5 years and counting and it has a replaceable battery. I can live perfectly without a smartphone; I don't do any mobile gaming, I mostly use the internet on laptops and desktop computer 95% of the time, use mobile data instead of Wi-Fi for security purposes, and the battery lasts for days on a single charge because I'm not addicted to the damn thing.

I am assuming you use dedicated cameras and camcorders for photography and videography.

 

While they have some benefits that smartphones don't have (tripod mounts, strong optical zoom, buttons and knobs for control, hot-swappable memory cards and batteries, flat bottoms for placement on many surfaces, instant booting), no dedicated compact cameras and camcorders with video recording capabilities beyond 2160p at 30fps have been made, with the exception of the Panasonic HC-X1000 with 2160p 60fps. And it was released in 2014. Since then, not much progress has been made in the dedicated camera world. Sony even discontinued their RX100 series of high-end compact cameras in 2019.

 

We arrived at a point where smartphones are the cheapest 4K camcorders. A smart "phone" is more of a camera than a mobile phone. Smart "phones" are digital cameras with mobile phones attached, not vice versa. While cameras on mobile phones used to be an optional extra, they are now a major selling point.

 

2 hours ago, Kisai said:

Buy only products you can repair, and if nothing fits your criteria, pick products that are the easiest to disassemble and repair yourself.

Unfortunately, the options are running dry.

 

2 hours ago, Kisai said:

Alternative solution. Stop buying junk. You do not need a $2000 smartphone or a $5000 laptop.

Indeed. At this point, entry-level phones do many everyday tasks just fine, such as emailing and web browsing and video calling, and even have solid battery performance and cameras and fast charging, where as entry-level phones from 2012 were a pain to use - remember the Galaxy Pocket or Galaxy Ace?

 

Anyway, even flagship-level smartphones have the usual disabilities like lack of export functionality for web browser tabs and sessions (data lock-in) if not rooted. Imagine paying $2000 for a smartphone but not being able to do basic things like exporting browsing data.

 

2 hours ago, Kisai said:

Do everything on the desktop, and minimize what you "have to" do on the phone.

You can not put a desktop computer in a suitcase and travel with it.

 

2 hours ago, Kisai said:

She's also driving a 10 year old car.

Good point. People expect cars to last well over a decade, yet somehow the same is not true for mobile phones.

 

Why shouldn't one be able to use a Galaxy S3 from 2012 (with updated software of course) today? After all, it is not worse than it was. It was considered a miracle phone in 2012. It's just that our expectations have increased.

 

In other words, 1 GB RAM in 2024 is not the same as 1 GB RAM in 2012.

[MC.Morrado]

I use my phone as a phone (calling and texting), nothing else. Sometimes I take pictures but only for myself. I am not a photographer nor do I care about the whole deal with cameras. I have actual hobbies that don't require any tech or fancy smart stuff; cycling, urban exploring, repairing stuff around the house when it breaks, etc.

 

Sometimes you just need to step away from the computer and focus on living.

[LAwLz]

9 hours ago, Ertio said:

I will have to figure it out. Won't be easy, certainly.

 

But anything is better than begging and hoping lawmakers will listen.

Okay, but it feels weird to have a call to action and then not have a plan on what the action is or should be.

 

 

4 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

The planned obsolescence started before gadgets, with house stuff like fridges, washing machines, stove etc.. New stuff dies or has issues every few years. Meanwhile if you know someone older with quality made products like these, they easily last 50y and look as new.

That might very well just be survivorship bias.

 

If some company made 1000 fridges 50 years ago, let's say 99% of them might die within 5 years and then 1% survived until today. Would you call that well-made? Probably not.

However, someone who sees those 10 surviving fridges today might say "This type of fridge was made 50 years ago and it still works today! Wow, they sure don't make them like they used to".

 

Your sample of 50-year-old appliances is incomplete and can therefore not be used to draw any conclusions from. Here is a good video about it with more examples.

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Dedayog said:

What in god's name does this mean?

 

"This post is released under Creative Commons 4.0 Attribution ShareAlike."

It means OP felt really proud of what they wrote and want to give everyone permission to repost it.

[Kisai]

 

3 hours ago, Ertio said:

You can not put a desktop computer in a suitcase and travel with it.

Well you can, a SFF desktop (or a macmini) + a portable USB-C powered monitor has about the same carry weight as a gamer laptop/engineering laptop. Not as convenient. But it will last far longer than the laptop will, which is why this is usually why truckers and RV'ers would go that route. Some people even permanently attached computers to their regular car that wasn't even equipped for it, but have to limit their power to what the car can put out.

 

Let me tell you, I've seen people travel with a TV + game console + accessories. Not portable ones, and bring them on the plane so they can have then at their hotel destination at a convention. Very silly.

 

I just want laptops to revert back 8 years to when you could still get removable batteries and the cooling systems weren't tiny fans that sound like a jet engine taking off every time you do the slightest action on the laptop. Some how Apple got this right with MacBook Air, but everyone else got it wrong and keep trying to turn every dang laptop into a "thin and light", which means it makes a lot of idiotic compromises and is still not even half as powerful as the equally named desktop.

[Doobeedoo]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

That might very well just be survivorship bias.

 

If some company made 1000 fridges 50 years ago, let's say 99% of them might die within 5 years and then 1% survived until today. Would you call that well-made? Probably not.

However, someone who sees those 10 surviving fridges today might say "This type of fridge was made 50 years ago and it still works today! Wow, they sure don't make them like they used to".

 

Your sample of 50-year-old appliances is incomplete and can therefore not be used to draw any conclusions from. Here is a good video about it with more examples.

Nah, it's not one lucky thing only. Many still have them, oven or washing machines that last decades. I knew people who worked on these and people that came to inspect or fix some minor stuff on some said also these are high quality, don't get rid of them for no reason. Said also some xyz parts just don't get worn out vs new models. Also mentioned if a thing actually breaks down that they'd want to pick the thing themselves. 

I mean let's not pretend most things are not made with high quality in mind.

These things were not some super expensive products. If you want something affordable today expect problems few years down the line and rust as somehow paint starts to peel away.

[ImorallySourcedElectrons]

1 hour ago, Doobeedoo said:

Nah, it's not one lucky thing only. Many still have them, oven or washing machines that last decades. I knew people who worked on these and people that came to inspect or fix some minor stuff on some said also these are high quality, don't get rid of them for no reason. Said also some xyz parts just don't get worn out vs new models. Also mentioned if a thing actually breaks down that they'd want to pick the thing themselves. 

I mean let's not pretend most things are not made with high quality in mind.

These things were not some super expensive products. If you want something affordable today expect problems few years down the line and rust as somehow paint starts to peel away.

What you also forget is that many of these products used to cost an arm and a leg, and are quite affordable now. Like 1950s TV sets would range anywhere from €5000 to €10000 in today's money (inflation adjusted), now you can pick something up for €200. Same with white goods like fridges, washers, etc. If you start shopping in the same price range as those things from back then, you might find products at an equal reliability point.

[Doobeedoo]

3 minutes ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

What you also forget is that many of these products used to cost an arm and a leg, and are quite affordable now. Like 1950s TV sets would range anywhere from €5000 to €10000 in today's money (inflation adjusted), now you can pick something up for €200. Same with white goods like fridges, washers, etc. If you start shopping in the same price range as those things from back then, you might find products at an equal reliability point.

Some of those things were quite new back then like TV or PCs too. So yeah of course insane price in start for those. But doesn't apply to everything that way. So like white goods they were decent price and robust in general. Today in same range of price with inflation it's just not. People call for repairs all the time. 

[ImorallySourcedElectrons]

17 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

Some of those things were quite new back then like TV or PCs too. So yeah of course insane price in start for those. But doesn't apply to everything that way. So like white goods they were decent price and robust in general. Today in same range of price with inflation it's just not. People call for repairs all the time. 

Yeah, but a fridge back then would also easily set you back a couple of hundred back then, which is thousands in today's money. Meanwhile, a fridge with the same feature set will only cost a couple of hundred. Part of modern design is that we don't over-design nearly as much as they did back then, which allows prices to go down but affects reliability.

[Doobeedoo]

3 hours ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

Yeah, but a fridge back then would also easily set you back a couple of hundred back then, which is thousands in today's money. Meanwhile, a fridge with the same feature set will only cost a couple of hundred. Part of modern design is that we don't over-design nearly as much as they did back then, which allows prices to go down but affects reliability.

It all depends how far back then we're talking about. I'm not saying early days of invented product really. But if it's like half a century ago people didn't pay insane prices for these things but were decent quality over a lot of crap today. They may got cheaper and more variety but as said quality is lower. The factory and machinery that makes this stuff has improved a lot and they can sell lower quality as good enough as they can control production better and it's higher demand thus lower price, but in the end it still can be a cheap crap with imminent failure soon enough.

[cooky560]

I had washer dryer that was left by the previous resident of this building, looking up the serial number online it was from the 70s, and it started losing functionality in 2020. 

 

In 2022, it still washed fine, but the dryer element that started failing in 2020 was now worthless, because it would trip it's own thermal protection after about 4 minutes, so I had the machine replaced with a new washer dryer. 

 

I highly doubt the 2022 machine will still be going in 2060 but we'll see...

 

Back on the topic of the post, banning the disgusting practices of irreplaceable (in some cases both hardware and firmware locked) should of been brought into law many years ago, however I think it would be hard to enforce planned obsolescence legislation.

 

People have accused companies of using subtle "features" such as placing hotter components in places where they won't get much cooling for many decades, is this a necessary design evil, or "planned obsolescence " ?

[cooky560]

17 hours ago, Ertio said:

This post is released under Creative Commons 4.0 Attribution ShareAlike.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm almost certain that as you posted this on a public forum, where the license for posts will be the one you agreed to provide to LMG when accepting the forum TOS, that this is worthless. 

 

Quote

Copyright and Licensing

If you submit any of your own copyrighted content to linustechtips.com, you retain the rights to that content. However, you also grant linustechtips.com a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, and worldwide license to redistribute, reproduce, and publicly display said content, as well as to prepare derivative works and to grant others permission to do the same for any purpose in any medium.

Source: LTT forums TOS

[Mark Kaine]

18 hours ago, Ertio said:

see Chrome mobile

 you mean on apple only or also proper operating systems? cause on Android that's not a thing you can always refresh normally 

 

 

in fact, you can't even pull ! it doesn't work! lol... (just noticed this, in chrome only tho) 

 

 

18 hours ago, Ertio said:

This post is released under Creative Commons 4.0 Attribution ShareAlike.

So chatgtp or... ? im confused ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

 

ps: Firefox too!!!!! this is outrageous...

[Mark Kaine]

16 hours ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

"Don't attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity."

found the mega corpo CEO!

 

 

1 hour ago, cooky560 said:

is this a necessary design evil, or "planned obsolescence " ?

why not both??

 

 

18 hours ago, Ertio said:

TLDR: We need to build our own stuff

TLDR: No, we need regulations that have serious consequences (minimum 5% up to 100% of global revenue) for companies that are found to have these anti consumer/ anti environment practices. 

 

you can't just make your own gpu, cpu, etc... well you can, but its gonna be slower than a potato