Security Vulnerabilities in EV Charging Stations

[cheeztoshobo]

A while ago, there was a high-profile discussion about hacking threats to public mobile phone chargers.

However, it turns out that electric vehicle charging stations are also highly vulnerable from a security standpoint.

This is alarming considering the increasing popularity of electric vehicles.

It is crucial to take an interest in this matter and implement regulatory measures to address these vulnerabilities.

If there are ways to use electric vehicle charging stations without any security threats, please let me know.

And, Check out this video for further information.

 

 

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, cheeztoshobo said:

A while ago, there was a high-profile discussion about hacking threats to public mobile phone chargers.

However, it turns out that electric vehicle charging stations are also highly vulnerable from a security standpoint.

This is alarming considering the increasing popularity of electric vehicles.

It is crucial to take an interest in this matter and implement regulatory measures to address these vulnerabilities.

If there are ways to use electric vehicle charging stations without any security threats, please let me know.

And, Check out this video for further information.

 

 

Hacking the stations for free electricity (or worse) or hacking the cars through the stations?  More worried about the second than the first.  I avoid public charging stations when possible.  I did some math and they seem to cost at least 3 times as much as charging at home.  Sometimes more.  Up to the point it actually approaches gasoline, which sort of ruins it for me.  I’d still drive an electric car because 95% of the time it’s just flat out better ignoring fuel cost but I wouldn’t be able to laugh at the gas cars which I find I enjoy.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Bombastinator

[cooky560]

This is just another reason, on top of high cost, long charging times (compared to the 30seconds to 2 minutes to full fill a  gas car), and few and distant charging points (where I live) for me to keep my gas car going a little longer.

 

Bring on hydrogen engines.

[Bombastinator]

6 hours ago, cooky560 said:

This is just another reason, on top of high cost, long charging times (compared to the 30seconds to 2 minutes to full fill a  gas car), and few and distant charging points (where I live) for me to keep my gas car going a little longer.

 

Bring on hydrogen engines.

Got to have a manufacturing (or distribution) network first the stuff will move right through steel.  This is a reason Japan is going hydrogen but europe and the US are going electric first.

 

of those carbon 14 “batteries” translate is looking into actually turn out to be a thing electric won’t really be electric anyway.  It will be carbon 14 nuclear.

[wanderingfool2]

I always have issues with videos that us AI generated voices and doesn't really provide sources or technical writeups.

 

While no doubt that EV chargers likely have vulnerabilities; I'm not about to trust a YouTube video with a small viewer count that doesn't show any proof of concepts (that is at least partially verifiable).

 

6 hours ago, cooky560 said:

Bring on hydrogen engines.

Barring some revolution hydrogen, hydrogen won't be really feasible.  The majority is currently made from fossil fuels, and the green options cost more.  Also it wouldn't be a hydrogen engine, it would be an electric motor where hydrogen is used to generate the electricity.  Overall though, hydrogen per km will approach the pricing of gas (as it stands it's currently more expensive than gas per km).  High cost is relative as well...if you charge from home it's cheaper...especially when you consider the dropping prices of EV's.

[cooky560]

38 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Barring some revolution hydrogen, hydrogen won't be really feasible.  The majority is currently made from fossil fuels, and the green options cost more.  Also it wouldn't be a hydrogen engine, it would be an electric motor where hydrogen is used to generate the electricity.  Overall though, hydrogen per km will approach the pricing of gas (as it stands it's currently more expensive than gas per km).  High cost is relative as well...if you charge from home it's cheaper...especially when you consider the dropping prices of EV's.

Perhaps hydrogen isn't the answer, however I envisaged a system where hydrogen essentially is used as gas is today, where the user takes the car to the pump, fills a hydrogen tank within a few minutes and drives off. Perhaps I was naive as I'm hardly a car expert.

 

Disregarding cost for the moment, after all gas powered cars were unaffordable for the masses at one time, and this can only improve. The charging issue is very big. Batteries made with current technology cannot realistically fast charge to full range within a few minutes, and this has severe problems for people who travel long distance.

 

One of the fairly regular trips I do in my car is about 300 miles each way, with many EVs within my price bracket, this would be at least one 45 minute stop for recharging compared to less than 5 minutes to fill up on gas. 

 

Another fairly large issue is what happens with used models, the batteries don't half as long as an ICE engine does even if that ICE engine is badly cared for.

[OhYou_]

bruh. 
To even think about someone hacking your car through a charger is almost a waste of time. 

any crimes with tampering with chargers will just be to skim cards at the reader. 

ccs uses single pin powerline carrier for it's high level control, which is long for the communication is strictly done between the charger and the vehicle onboard charger. 
to gain access to the rest of the car, you would have to communicate THROUGH the vehicle onboard charger over it's HLC interface at the charge port. I cant really put it into words how absolutely idiotic the auto manufacturer AND the charger controller manufacturer would have to be to somehow implement a way it could be used as a pivot point. 

 

Chademo just exposes vehicle can-/+ to the charge port though lol, its realistic to expect some manufacturers would not install a can gateway ofr this connection and you could literally just access at lest the central gateway and probably the whole car. 

 

Tesla encrypts the communication between charger and car, also being the only car to transfer technically payment info over the cable. 

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, cooky560 said:

Perhaps hydrogen isn't the answer, however I envisaged a system where hydrogen essentially is used as gas is today, where the user takes the car to the pump, fills a hydrogen tank within a few minutes and drives off. Perhaps I was naive as I'm hardly a car expert.

 

Disregarding cost for the moment, after all gas powered cars were unaffordable for the masses at one time, and this can only improve. The charging issue is very big. Batteries made with current technology cannot realistically fast charge to full range within a few minutes, and this has severe problems for people who travel long distance.

 

One of the fairly regular trips I do in my car is about 300 miles each way, with many EVs within my price bracket, this would be at least one 45 minute stop for recharging compared to less than 5 minutes to fill up on gas. 

 

Another fairly large issue is what happens with used models, the batteries don't half as long as an ICE engine does even if that ICE engine is badly cared for.

Hydrogen is the only thing we got right now that has the speed of refueling and energy density needed long term.   So it’s not a bad thought.  What makes hydrogen hard is it’s incredibly difficult to contain for any period of time and infrastructure is needed to make it viable.  This is a reason Japan went hydrogen.  The infrastructure is easier over there.  The infrastructure for electric is already largely in place in Europe and the US which is what makes electric cars a mid-step.  Electric is progressing faster than hydrogen though and may surpass it.  Time will tell.  The whole almost no moving parts and a charger in my garage (which is a bit like having your own personal almost free gas station) makes electric currently killer for me.  If those carbon 14 things work though it will be cars don’t need to be refueled period, and that’s a whole other level.  They’re so long lasting you can move the power pack to a new car when it wears out literally for generations.  The half life is something like 20,000 years.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Bombastinator

[LAwLz]

21 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

the speed of refueling

Maybe this is a very mid/south Sweden POV, but I don't get why people are so obsessed with researching speed.

 

I very, very rarely drive more than ~30 kilometers in a single day, so a long as I can always have that when I start in the morning (after having the car charge at home overnight), I am set.

If I am going to drive more than 30 kilometers then chances are I will want to take a break anyway, and with a supercharger it might be enough with like a 15-minute one. But now we are talking about something that might happen to me less than once a year.

 

 

For me, who mostly drives rather short distances, slowly charging at home during the night (or maybe slowly charging during my workday, at my job's parking) is arguably more convenient than having to drive to a gas station and fuel up every once in a while.

 

I am just wondering if it's really necessary to have such fast charging and such long ranges as people always talk about. I feel like it is one of those unwarranted fears that rarely actually come true.

[Bombastinator]

4 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Maybe this is a very mid/south Sweden POV, but I don't get why people are so obsessed with researching speed.

 

I very, very rarely drive more than ~30 kilometers in a single day, so a long as I can always have that when I start in the morning (after having the car charge at home overnight), I am set.

If I am going to drive more than 30 kilometers then chances are I will want to take a break anyway, and with a supercharger it might be enough with like a 15-minute one. But now we are talking about something that might happen to me less than once a year.

 

 

For me, who mostly drives rather short distances, slowly charging at home during the night (or maybe slowly charging during my workday, at my job's parking) is arguably more convenient than having to drive to a gas station and fuel up every once in a while.

 

I am just wondering if it's really necessary to have such fast charging and such long ranges as people always talk about. I feel like it is one of those unwarranted fears that rarely actually come true.

The US is a big place.  I can’t even traverse a fifth of my state on a charge, which means it effectively takes 5 days to travers my state without lv3 charging.  You’re right for 95+% of trips though.  That short distance stuff is why I think electric cars are flat out better than gasoline.  I don’t even use lv2 charging either.  I use lv1, and don’t need to charge my car every day.  

[Holmes108]

11 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Maybe this is a very mid/south Sweden POV, but I don't get why people are so obsessed with researching speed.

 

I very, very rarely drive more than ~30 kilometers in a single day, so a long as I can always have that when I start in the morning (after having the car charge at home overnight), I am set.

If I am going to drive more than 30 kilometers then chances are I will want to take a break anyway, and with a supercharger it might be enough with like a 15-minute one. But now we are talking about something that might happen to me less than once a year.

 

 

For me, who mostly drives rather short distances, slowly charging at home during the night (or maybe slowly charging during my workday, at my job's parking) is arguably more convenient than having to drive to a gas station and fuel up every once in a while.

 

I am just wondering if it's really necessary to have such fast charging and such long ranges as people always talk about. I feel like it is one of those unwarranted fears that rarely actually come true.

Probably a regional thing. I think longer distances are much more normal here (in North America). I drive a 260KM round trip drive every Sunday to bring my Daughter home (shared custody). And it's by no means an unusual or excessive amount. Just under 1.5 hours away.

 

Many people in my town commute to Toronto for work daily, which is over 100KM (up to 150) one way, depending on which area of the city. 

 

My trip to my daughters house is certainly doable with Modern EV's... but there aren't a ton of chargers, and with our Canadian Winters, the thought of one does make me a bit nervous.

 

Edit: On the flip side, I live less than a 10min drive to work, so most of the time, it would be no issue. Assuming I could have a charger at home, which I currently can't. But hopefully that will change.

[Needfuldoer]

13 hours ago, OhYou_ said:

To even think about someone hacking your car through a charger is almost a waste of time. 

It's practically impossible at level 2 charging for cars that use J1772 ports. That standard is almost shockingly primitive. The communication is limited to "am I plugged into something", "how much capacity do I have available", "I'm ready to turn the power on", "we're about to be disconnected", and "does the car need to be in a ventilated space to charge". (That last one was pretty much only used way back in the 90s for cars that used lead-acid batteries, which produce hydrogen gas as a byproduct of charging.) It's not really even serial data, it's a carrier frequency and number of resistance values of which everyone agrees on the meaning.

 

 

Like you said, the biggest concern is getting your card skimmed. (Just like on gas pumps.)

 

I use ChargePoint, which gives you an RFID tag and lets you add a virtual card to an Apple Wallet. The charging station just reads the number on the card and reports usage to their backend, then I get charged from there. As an added layer, I have that billing set up through PayPal.

 

11 hours ago, Holmes108 said:

Probably a regional thing. I think longer distances are much more normal here (in North America). I drive a 260KM round trip drive every Sunday to bring my Daughter home (shared custody). And it's by no means an unusual or excessive amount. Just under 1.5 hours away.

 

Many people in my town commute to Toronto for work daily, which is over 100KM (up to 150) one way, depending on which area of the city. 

 

My trip to my daughters house is certainly doable with Modern EV's... but there aren't a ton of chargers, and with our Canadian Winters, the thought of one does make me a bit nervous.

 

Edit: On the flip side, I live less than a 10min drive to work, so most of the time, it would be no issue. Assuming I could have a charger at home, which I currently can't. But hopefully that will change.

*Starts beating the "plug-in hybrids should be far more common than they actually are" drum again*

 

That's literally an ideal use case for a plug-in hybrid.

 

My Volt is an EV for 50 miles, then it gets over 40 MPG for another 360 miles. Can't find a charger? Oh well! Use gas. It's cold? Run the engine and get all the heat you want! Only drive 10 minutes to work and back most days? You don't even need a fancy EVSE, a regular 110v 15A outlet is plenty to recharge what you'd use every day, and that "charger" comes with the car.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Needfuldoer

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, Holmes108 said:

Probably a regional thing. I think longer distances are much more normal here (in North America). I drive a 260KM round trip drive every Sunday to bring my Daughter home (shared custody). And it's by no means an unusual or excessive amount. Just under 1.5 hours away.

 

Many people in my town commute to Toronto for work daily, which is over 100KM (up to 150) one way, depending on which area of the city. 

 

My trip to my daughters house is certainly doable with Modern EV's... but there aren't a ton of chargers, and with our Canadian Winters, the thought of one does make me a bit nervous.

 

Edit: On the flip side, I live less than a 10min drive to work, so most of the time, it would be no issue. Assuming I could have a charger at home, which I currently can't. But hopefully that will change.

Canadian winters don’t enter.  The range reduction ev batteries suffer happens in even a regular winter.  It’s about a third.  Short range ev for full city folk, longer range cars for the burbs, and anything rural (which would be that 100 km commute) is more or less out.  A farmer could probably use one since the trips to town aren’t daily, but a hybrid is a car that will not go away.

[OhYou_]

10 minutes ago, Needfuldoer said:

cars that use J1772 ports

most cars with these have HLC on the CP pin, I am guessing likely j1939, though it may be some other 1 wire proto, never looked into it. 

it is a requirement for dc fast charge since the charger needs data which comes from the can central gateway and goes to the onboard charger to then get converted and go over the CP pin. 

it equates to much more than just the basic commands, you would have greater exploit possibilities to the onboard charger. I highly doubt they are stupid enough to just send any traffic coming in from the charge port out onto the canbus or at least to the central gateway and it would be filtered to specific if any messages at all, since I don think dc fast charge would need any messages from the charger to any system except the onboard charger.

[cooky560]

I'm glad the video is thoroughly debunked, however I find it interesting that people just said "most people make short trips" with regards to my charging problem.

I work from home so I pretty much only use my car for long journeys, what do I do when it comes to leaving ICE behind?

[Bombastinator]

42 minutes ago, cooky560 said:

I'm glad the video is thoroughly debunked, however I find it interesting that people just said "most people make short trips" with regards to my charging problem.

I work from home so I pretty much only use my car for long journeys, what do I do when it comes to leaving ICE behind?

Most people DO make short trips.  They just don’t make them all the time.  I don’t remember what percentage of the US population lives either cities proper or the suburbs surrounding them but it’s well over half.  And then there’s the (probably smaller) set of people who live in rural areas but don’t travel more than 70 miles to get groceries or whatnot.  It’s the people in bedroom communities that live rurally but work in the city who have to have hybrids.  In my are the smallest useful range is about 150mi.  But that’s mostly because it shortens to 100 in the winter.  This is why I wouldn’t buy an electric mini.  Not enough range for the winters in my area.  If I lived in Orlando or something it would probably be fine though.  The rule is “about 20 minutes” of drive time.  People when it starts pushing over half an hour people generally move.  100km is a more than an hour drive.  So someone commuting that has to be willing to effectively “work” 10 hours or more but only get paid for 8 of them.  Most people won’t do that.  It’s only a serious crimp for me once every couple years.  Actually cheaper to have an electric car and fly rather than road trip.  If you live in town I can’t see one needing more than 200mi. The people who live in cities that are hosed though are the people in apartment buildings with no parking spot they can get their own electric to.  Those public chargers cost nearly what gas does.  “Has 110v in the parking lot” is going to start to be worth money. 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Bombastinator

[cooky560]

6 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Most people DO make short trips.  They just don’t make them all the time.  I don’t remember what percentage of the US population lives either cities proper or the suburbs surrounding them but it’s well over half.  And then there’s the (probably smaller) set of people who live in rural areas but don’t travel more than 70 miles to get groceries or whatnot.  It’s the people in bedroom communities that live rurally but work in the city who have to have hybrids.  In my are the smallest useful range is about 150mi.  But that’s mostly because it shortens to 100 in the winter.  This is why I wouldn’t buy an electric mini.  Not enough range for the winters in my area.  If I lived in Orlando or something it would probably be fine though.  The rule is “about 20 minutes” of drive time.  People when it starts pushing over half an hour people generally move.  100km is a more than an hour drive.  So someone commuting that has to be willing to effectively “work” 10 hours or more but only get paid for 8 of them.  Most people won’t do that.  It’s only a serious crimp for me once every couple years.  Actually cheaper to have an electric car and fly rather than road trip.  If you live in town I can’t see one needing more than 200mi

My car is used once a weekend for a large commute of 300miles each way. Most the time I don't use it too much as I work at home and can order shopping with doorstep service online.

[Bombastinator]

3 minutes ago, cooky560 said:

My car is used once a weekend for a large commute of 300miles each way. Most the time I don't use it too much as I work at home and can order shopping with doorstep service online.

There’s an example where a hybrid is needed.  Or a really nice electric.  Or no car at all.  300mi is usually flyable.  Probably cheaper in the long run to have no car and use public transportation for those long weekly trips.  Probably faster too. Also you wouldn’t have to do the driving.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Bombastinator

[cooky560]

Thank you for your advice  If public transport existed near my house (I live in a quite remote location) I would certainly do that! 

I know some electric cars have a pretty solid range, however the only one I'm aware of that has a range of over 300 miles is the Ionic5 and it's pretty pricey.

[Bombastinator]

7 minutes ago, cooky560 said:

Thank you for your advice  If public transport existed near my house (I live in a quite remote location) I would certainly do that! 

I know some electric cars have a pretty solid range, however the only one I'm aware of that has a range of over 300 miles is the Ionic5 and it's pretty pricey.

Like I said.  A really nice one.  A 2019 volt would be a decent option if you fit in one.  I don’t.  I was told 2019 was the best year for em.  Let’s explore the “no car” thing though.  A taxi ride to public transit is going to be expensive. $50 maybe? Then there’s the ticket which we can call $100.  So $150 a week. What does a car cost?  Amortized over the life of the vehicle of course.  The easy way to figure that is a lease.  400-500/month? I don’t know what they cost now. So $100-$125 a week.  Then there’s gas and repairs and tabs, etc.  still might be cheaper.  YMMV of course.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Bombastinator

[Needfuldoer]

14 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

A 2019 volt would be a decent option if you fit in one.  I don’t.  I was told 2019 was the best year for em.

2019s got the updated infotainment system from the Bolt, an optional power driver's seat, and an optional 7.2kWh onboard charger. Other than that they're the same as the 2016s-2018s.

 

The second-gen Volt should've been a powertrain option for the Equinox, not a bespoke small hatchback. They probably would've sold a lot more of them.

[Bombastinator]

Just now, Needfuldoer said:

2019s got the updated infotainment system from the Bolt, an optional power driver's seat, and a 7.2kWh onboard charger. Other than that they're the same as the 2016s-2018s.

 

The second-gen Volt should've been a powertrain option for the Equinox, not a bespoke small hatchback. They probably would've sold a lot more of them.

I don’t know the specifics.  An electrician did the research and told me so I believe him.  There’s a special limit on Nissan leafs too.  The ones with a heat pump for the battery are needed in cold weather.  You can still park them overnight out in the cold, but the old ones used heat tape and it’s a lot less efficient.  A really cold windy night can eat a third of your remaining charge, vs like 10% for the heat pump ones.  Me I put it in a garage and plug it in so there are no problems. 

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, cooky560 said:

My car is used once a weekend for a large commute of 300miles each way. Most the time I don't use it too much as I work at home and can order shopping with doorstep service online.

Wait, really?

If you are driving an average of 70 miles per hour, 300 miles there, and then 300 miles back, that's almost 9 hours you spend in your car for a single trip, every single weekend.

 

 

I am not saying you're lying, but that seems crazy to me, and I can't imagine a scenario where I would actually do that. 

The trip from Stockholm to Göteborg is around 300 miles. It would take roughly 5 hours by car. It would take roughly 3 hours by train.

That's not just 2 hours of time I would have extra from just taking the train, but that's also 3 hours on the train where I can do things. One of the reasons why I hate driving is because I am stuck in a metal box where I have to sit still and do nothing but look at the road and keep my hands on the wheels. The only thing I can potentially do is talk to someone or listen to something. It's in my eyes a massive waste of time. At least on the train I can bring a laptop or something and be productive (or more likely, watch a movie or play some game).

 

Again, maybe this is just me being Swedish and it's a cultural thing, but I genuinely can't imagine a world where someone has to regularly take these very long trips regularly and the car is the best method of transportation. In my world, these trips are very rare and if they do occur we don't use cars. Not to mention that the whole "let's drive for 5 hours straight" is just not something I think anyone should do, regardless of how much range your car has. People are not able to focus for that long.

 

Again, I feel like the discussion about the range is getting way too much focus because in my world I can't actually imagine people needing that much. Some people probably do and I understand that my experience is not the same as everyone else's, but there is just such a massive difference I feel like it's an overblown issue that may just stick around for some people because they are doing things in a nonoptimal way.

[cooky560]

3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

-snipping long post-

I'm an edge case for sure, this situation is temporary, but it is true at the moment. 

I don't make the trip with 5 hours of straight driving, I stop for about 10 minutes at around 2 1/2 hours mark and grab a coffee. I doubt that 10 minutes would be suitable for EV charging given current  EV technology was more my point.

[FrozenIpaq]

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Wait, really?

If you are driving an average of 70 miles per hour, 300 miles there, and then 300 miles back, that's almost 9 hours you spend in your car for a single trip, every single weekend.

 

 

--Snip-

 

I'm assuming cooky might be in the US. If that's the case, it's fairly regular for people to take weekend trips to see relatives or a second house (think vacation house if you have money) over the weekend and cover it in that amount of distance - 300 is a bit much on that scale though but usually 3-4 hours of driving each way can be seen as a regular thing to do on a Friday night and come back on a Sunday.