I Made a Bad Decision – Framework Investment Update

[bluehawk]

I'd be curious if Framework would look into an AIO. Or I'm sure someone could craft one with the Framework parts, or maybe they have already. 

[HectorF]

Will say as an engineer who works for Micron (thanks Linus for dropping in to Boise last year ), I am so happy to see framework encourage this style of modularity to reduce e-waste and a product that finally meets the demands of more than one type of client for multiple generations. The removeable GPU being a huge boon to me as well as upgradeable mainboard. As a whole, the Dells, Asus, etc. of the world seem to have zero interest in selling lower volume products that don't sell you a whole new system. The Framework product model opens so many doors for repair, sustainability, and affordability down the road in a way that apple would never accept. Framework just epitomizes a lot of user first, environment first solutions that are actually practical. Love the product, love the public message, and love the transparency.

 

As far as ECC support goes, with DDR5 having on die ECC optionally, I am less worried about that (I work on HBM, so I don't know all the details about DDR5 support on a vendor to vendor basis). 

[Chris_UK]

From a business perspective while it might take a bit to get the buy in, the ability to customise the laptops prior to dispatch, and allow the team to refurb and reissue with different set ups from the same shell is great. Rather than shelling out for new equipment a bin of parts would probably be cheaper and better.

 

only thing I think it needs to make this work would be a way to have the customisable elements locked down to try and avoid users tampering with it.

[HectorF]

Just now, Chris_UK said:

From a business perspective while it might take a bit to get the buy in, the ability to customise the laptops prior to dispatch, and allow the team to refurb and reissue with different set ups from the same shell is great. Rather than shelling out for new equipment a bin of parts would probably be cheaper and better.

 

only thing I think it needs to make this work would be a way to have the customisable elements locked down to try and avoid users tampering with it.

Why would you want to lock it down to prevent tampering, rather than educating users to simply not modify unless they know what they are doing, and leave the decision to the user? It also seems to go against the grain of hot swapping the configuration overall. 

[kuro68k]

Actually one other thing they need - remote power button.

 

There is no standard for USB or Thunderbolt power buttons like the ones on docks. I need a Thunderbolt dock with video, plenty of USB, and a power button. Then the laptop can go under the desk when not travelling.

[Luscious]

Back in the day the 14 inch HP dv4 laptops gave you the option of removable high capacity batteries. It was a chungus using 18650's but that 12-cell combined with mobile Core 2 Duo back then resulted in an all-day laptop that you could also casually game on.

 

Removable batteries in laptops should NEVER have gone away IMHO since the advantages far outweigh the hurdles today of getting internal batteries replaced. Dell in particular with their XPS laptops are especially guilty here and a major PITA to swap - not only do they NOT SELL batteries to you, but getting any replacement sold from 3rd parties to work requires jumping through unnecessary hoops in the BIOS. Believe me when I say I would thoroughly enjoy taking an XPS 17 and whacking Michael Dell over the head with it.

 

That reconfigurable keyboard with number pad is a seriously amazing thing. The layout eliminates the problem of missing keys or wrongly spaced keys - something that your resident Alex fails to point out on all of his laptop reviews (shame on you!!!). It also opens up the possibility of different color options for folks who may want a white keyboard instead of black, for example, or textured key caps versus glossy.

 

I would seriously consider a 16 inch Framework in lieu of a XPS 17 for my next laptop, but I do have some reservations. Not knowing the specs of the unit is one. What removable GPU options is the second. The 3.5mm jack module is a funny one though, because given the real estate they could have placed THREE 3.5mm jacks on there instead for headphone/mic/line-out - something to consider for a future module option!!!

 

My real hold out though at this time is an 18 inch laptop rocking a 2560x1600 display, quad m.2 and dual GPU's - wake me up when Framework gets there.

[porina]

Part of me wonders how much power that GPU cooling solution can push. Could it sustain say >100W? If the bay is extensible, does that keep the door open to thicker coolers with better performance?

[kuro68k]

Speaking of batteries, the ability to run at maximum performance without one would be nice. No point heating that battery up while in desktop mode, it just wears it out.

[Chris_UK]

3 minutes ago, HectorF said:

Why would you want to lock it down to prevent tampering, rather than educating users to simply not modify unless they know what they are doing, and leave the decision to the user? It also seems to go against the grain of hot swapping the configuration overall. 

Because most people seem to be tech luddites in a lot of businesses, and preconfiruing them would be easier than then influx of I’ve broken this etc. I agree locking it down defeats the purpose when you are selling to consumers but from an it management perspective would be a pain to deal with.

 

but yes education probably would go a long way.

[Vishera]

36 minutes ago, porina said:

Part of me wonders how much power that GPU cooling solution can push. Could it sustain say >100W? If the bay is extensible, does that keep the door open to thicker coolers with better performance?

At this form factor you can cool more than 150W with vapor chambers:

[porina]

3 minutes ago, Vishera said:

At this form factor you can cool more than 150W with vapor chambers:

The one in the video looked like two fans, with two heatpipes, one going to each fan area. The pic you attached makes it look like a blower cooler. Are they used in laptops at all currently? Cost/weight tradeoff?

[DanKepke]

I believe the two fans also cool the CPU. The GPU heatsink is the part blowing to the back and the sides are for the CPU heatsink(?). What's cool, if Framework offers a decent selection of CPU and GPU upgrades, you can configure your laptop like you would configure your PC. Laptops with somthing like a 1360P + XX60 class GPU are way to rare, but would make more sense than a 12900H, that's just being used as a token price increase factor.

[Bismut]

1 hour ago, LinusTech said:

From my point of view, it's like putting a fun cartoon character on a pack of spinach to get kids excited to eat it. 

Eh, I think I can see what @poptonite meant. I doesn't feel like a "fun cartoon character" but moreso calling it "green slime" instead of spinach to me by now.

I know the reasons for the "creative" titles, but this is misleading at best. It leaves a bad (first) impression and not everyone will click on the video and see you actually be happy with what they're doing, but instead scroll on, thinking that Framework abandoned their ideals with the video being your promised fallout, or their new products just being bad. Either one might pointlessly hurt both your, and especially their reputation.

[Required]

What I want is just simple a Device with a Non Glossy 16:10 Display and 5 Years on Premise Repair EU Wide Warranty + Accidental Damage.
That offer every of the big Company like HPe, Dell and Lenovo (where my Thinkpad is from). I would never buy any Laptop with that.

 

EDIT: I forgott to mention Security like Hardware SSD Encryption and the other "nice" Features. And yes my Tablet cost me some high 4 digit € Price but it can do almost everything what I want. When I get the Pinout and an working 3D Printer the Sky is the Limit....

Edited March 25, 2023 by Required

[BlueODST076]

Imagine in the bottom slot a Raspberry Pi or MiSTer Multisystem console inside to fully integrate with the Screen and Keyboard! Some drivers and software and a key combination like Ctrl+Shift+Home and it will swap and you could play your retro games or "dual boot " linux and windows together side by side! (of course on the mister multisystem would have to be smaller)

[nekollx]

4 hours ago, porina said:

Part of me wonders how much power that GPU cooling solution can push. Could it sustain say >100W? If the bay is extensible, does that keep the door open to thicker coolers with better performance?

well the benefit of modular design is that the part of you you dont like we can just swap out

[nekollx]

1 hour ago, BlueODST076 said:

Imagine in the bottom slot a Raspberry Pi or MiSTer Multisystem console inside to fully integrate with the Screen and Keyboard! Some drivers and software and a key combination like Ctrl+Shift+Home and it will swap and you could play your retro games or "dual boot " linux and windows together side by side! (of course on the mister multisystem would have to be smaller)

years ago ( when my hans were more steady) i had a similar tought for toy design. Mocked up and even built some portotypes but could never get the soldering done. the idea was that you could plug a usb in if you wanted to change the default music or reporgram the sounds while keeping it user friendly.I wonder if it would be more doable today? Eh probably not it doesnt seem like ready made breakout boards from adafruit and the link can be assembled without some solder which sadly is beyond me

[skywake]

You know, that expansion card got me thinking. If someone put some effort into it the framework mainboardcould be the base for a pretty solid "prosumer" grade NAS. I feel like that space is pretty neglected. You're either going with Synology or QNAP and getting a locked down, buy once and bin when you outgrow it hardware platform. Or you go DIY and go full desktop CPU with its fairly limited case options for 3.5" drives. Basically your only "small footprint" options for the desktop route being the Node 304 and Jonsbo N2. Both of which limit you to mITX which basically has the same IO restrictions as the Framework motherboard anyways and both are, although relatively small, significantly larger than the off-the-shelf options

 

Just have enough space for the mainboard, make a case with a backplane for like 5x 3.5" drives + multi-gig LAN that connects to PCIe expansion in some way. Have some way to deliver power to the mainboard and the drives via some external power brick. Boom, small footprint, power efficient NAS. I mean enthusiasts have been repurposing their old desktop hardware as servers for years. Why not do the same with old laptop hardware?

 

edit:

Also I'm pretty sold now, going to go with Framework for my next laptop. It just might be a while given the 3 year old Dell with its Zen 2 Ryzen is still plenty enough for the things I actually use it for

[VinLAURiA]

I really hope this becomes the new diamond standard. The potential here not only for laptops but other form factors is massive, and what I really wanna see is for all of Framework's different module systems - the I/O units, the input panels, and that new mobile PCIe system - to become official standards which span the whole industry. This could change the game for how laptops of all types are built, with Framework just being the vanilla option; sorta like how Surface sets the standard for touch-enabled Windows machines.

 

Speaking of Surface, my biggest hope is to also see the screen ecosystem expand in the future and for big players to get in on that. For instance, could you imagine Framework partnering with Microsoft for a Surface screen unit? Something that's touch-enabled, compatible with the whole Surface accessory ecosystem, and could do something like flip around at various angles like the Surface Laptop Studio? Or perhaps something involving the Samsung folding/extending display technology shown off at this year's CES for a laptop that folds closed normally but becomes an ultrawide with equivalent screen real estate to those triple-display laptop concepts like Project Valerie when it opens?

 

Either of those, all while the lower half remains on Framework's open module system for the input panels, I/O, and internals? That's the best of both worlds right there.

[Drunknmonk]

Sooo I just watched your video. I am currently in the market for a good laptop that will be decent for gaming. I don't really play the newest most graphics intensive titles so I am not shooting for a super high end laptop. One of the questions I have though after going to Framework's website is that I don't see any details regarding the graphics cards on these laptops. Is there a timeframe when these specs will be released?

 

I am really interested in the upgradability of these laptops. I have enough old laptops taking up space...

[sounds]

8 hours ago, kuro68k said:

Actually one other thing they need - remote power button.

 

There is no standard for USB or Thunderbolt power buttons like the ones on docks. I need a Thunderbolt dock with video, plenty of USB, and a power button. Then the laptop can go under the desk when not travelling.

Why not attach a button like this to a macro like this?

[Spindel]

Aren’t FWs I/O modules just USB-C dongles with extra steps?

[wanector]

I am looking for a traveling gaming set up and I am so glad framework is making a "gaming" laptop. 

 

My wishlist is an RTX 4070 to compete against the Asus Zephyrus GU604

[05032-Mendicant-Bias]

11 hours ago, poptonite said:

I think the title and thumbnail on this video crosses a line. It's a complete farce compared to the actual opinion Linus has of Framework. 

I agree. I thought Framework had messed up and Linus was breaking out very publicly and very loudly.

[SlickAustin]

1 hour ago, Spindel said:

Aren’t FWs I/O modules just USB-C dongles with extra steps?

Pretty much yeah, it's USB 3.2 I believe, and it's done in a pretty nice way IMO. I just wish some of them had another module on the... modules. Saw someone mention either here or in the comments that they'd like to see a USB-C alongside the 3.5mm module, just not sure exactly how that would work NGL