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New Chinese GPU "MTT S80" has been benchmarked, with 3060 level performance

Brownfletching
By Brownfletching
in Tech News
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Summary

A new Chinese GPU, the MTT S80 manufactured by Moore Threads, has been benchmarked by video card collector Löschzwerg. It averages between a 3060 and 3060ti in TFLOPs, although the drivers are rough and tessellation is currently broken. Oh yeah, and it can run Crysis.

 

Quotes

Quote

 To say that benchmarking the MTT S80 was difficult is an understatement. Löschzwerg emphasized that the graphics card's performance and driver were wonky. The GPU utilization wasn't optimal, and the graphics card rarely showed its full potential, suggesting a lack of driver optimization. Tessellation doesn't work with the current driver and causes crashes on Unigine Heaven, 3DMark 11, and Final Fantasy XIV: Endwalker. Surprisingly, Resizable BAR works fine.

 

My thoughts

Player 4 has joined the game? Who knows if we'll ever get these in the West, but it seems to have impressive performance assuming the drivers can be fixed. That might be a big assumption though, so I guess we'll have to see.

 

Sources

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/chinese-homebred-pcie-50-gaming-gpu-benchmarks-shared

 

https://wccftech.com/it-can-run-crysis-chinese-mtt-s80-the-only-pcie-gen-5-gpu-runs-dx9-dx10-games-well/

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Flops don't really translate to a whole lot. Making good GPUs is hard as hell so I don't expect anything competitive for years

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted

When you read the parts of the article about the performance...the drivers are extremely rough and as a result performance and compatibility sucks.

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MUSA is based on PowerVR, which kind of explains all the shortfalls since PVR has never been made for DirectX

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Didn't we have a thread on this when it was announced? Interesting to see how it is going now it is in the wild. Guess they'll also have to go through the Intel-like pain of getting drivers up to scratch which could take a while. Power isn't too surprising if as reported it's on 12nm.

 

I have no idea what resources that company can provide, but I feel Intel have the opportunity to overtake AMD in unit shipments in a few years. This Chinese offering will be more of a wait and see thing but I wouldn't write them off as a future player.

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Eh, dumb question, why is this driver thing so complicated?  

it seems almost something that needs to be done on per game basis  - i know it's an old problem  - but why?

 

Shouldn't that stuff be standardized (more)?

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1 hour ago, Mark Kaine said:

Shouldn't that stuff be standardized (more)?

It is standard, which is why it works at all. The difference is working and working well. I'm not a professional programmer, but I wonder if you can see this as like a compiler for CPU code. Depending on how you do a certain thing, it could work better than others.

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14 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Making good GPUs is hard as hell so I don't expect anything competitive for years

I should think that making the hardware is the hard part, and optimising the drivers would be the easy(ier) part, but I've not done either, so I dunno.

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15 hours ago, Grand Admiral Thrawn said:

Okay, enough about Intel ARC, let us talk about the Chinese one now.

ARC is nowhere near as bad...and that's while still being an utter mess with its drivers.

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2 hours ago, Dabombinable said:

ARC is nowhere near as bad...and that's while still being an utter mess with its drivers.

 

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6 hours ago, Radium_Angel said:

should think that making the hardware is the hard part, and optimising the drivers would be the easy(ier) part, but I've not done either, so I dunno.

as i hinted at, i think the hardware is the "easy" part... you just need to throw a bit of money at it and you got your hardware... but drivers... most of this stuff is proprietary?  amd, nvidia,  intel, probably aren't going to tell a competitor their secrets,  direct x i don't know if thats more easily accessible... but apparently poses an issue as well.

 

if the drivers was the easy part, then why has intel had massive issues with their dGPUs, after all they already should have plenty of experience and the hardware is solid... its just actually applying and developing drivers (for every game out there) seems to be the challenging part and probably more expensive than developing the hardware... although im sure intel can manage... *not* sure about this new chinese competitor. 

 

6 hours ago, porina said:

It is standard, which is why it works at all. The difference is working and working well. I'm not a professional programmer, but I wonder if you can see this as like a compiler for CPU code. Depending on how you do a certain thing, it could work better than others.

ok so there are standards, but each driver needs to apply these standards,  and seemingly often on a per game basis (ie "optimizations") and i think there's a lot of secrecy around it, but i don't know either how it works - i was just wondering why its not actually easier (as it seems pretty hard, especially for new players in the field)

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10 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

ok so there are standards, but each driver needs to apply these standards,  and seemingly often on a per game basis (ie "optimizations") and i think there's a lot of secrecy around it, but i don't know either how it works - i was just wondering why its not actually easier (as it seems pretty hard, especially for new players in the field)

Interface standards are a different layer from the performance optimisations.

 

Not sure if this is a good analogy. For example, if you wanted to make a sliced bread sandwich for yourself, you might take some slices from a loaf, butter it, apply any other fillings and assemble. But if you were to make 10 sandwiches, you could do it that way 10 times, but it might be faster to do each operations in one batch to reduce context switching. Get all the bread out and lay in order. Butter them all. Fill them all. Assemble them all. Want it even faster? Go parallel. With more than one person you could try to arrange actions to be done at the same time without blocking each other. Now scale it to 10000 sandwiches. You might have people dedicated just to bread. Some to do buttering. Some to do filling. Some to move the ingredients around and keep the others working as fast as they can. The work request is the same, and the output is the same. How you get from one to the other is the optimisation point. Have too much or too little time spent on each step can degrade your throughput.

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2 hours ago, porina said:

Not sure if this is a good analogy. For example, if you wanted to make a sliced bread sandwich for yourself, you might take some slices from a loaf, butter it, apply any other fillings and assemble. But if you were to make 10 sandwiches...

And it's a good thing it can make sandwiches, because no way in hell will this company be eating anyone's lunch anytime soon.

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12 hours ago, porina said:

Not sure if this is a good analogy.

its an apt analogy, but i feel thats only a part of it, i did read/watch some stuff a while ago that explained how difficult it is to make proper drivers, decades of experience,  and it's the main reason there aren't many competitors in the field. 

like before you even think about optimization in a performance related way, you need to get the games to even run... i mean that's the worst hit to the reputation i feel "cant even run X"... 

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On 2/6/2023 at 10:47 AM, Radium_Angel said:

I should think that making the hardware is the hard part, and optimising the drivers would be the easy(ier) part, but I've not done either, so I dunno.

It's hard full stack and then some. 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Who manufactured that GPU? I only read that it's a 12nm process, but I didn't find who is the manufacturer.

 

If China has a local 12nm fabs, that would be seriously impressive.

If the MTT S80 was manufactured by the likes of Samsung, it's a lot less impressive.

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For a very crude estimation of why drivers are so complicated: Windows 10 has about 50 million lines of code while Nvidia has said their drivers are 25 million. The driver is basically an operating system by itself. Nvidia has 30 years of a head start on optimising, testing and fixing it for graphics and all manners of spaghetti code games.

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On 2/8/2023 at 5:22 AM, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

Who manufactured that GPU? I only read that it's a 12nm process, but I didn't find who is the manufacturer.

 

If China has a local 12nm fabs, that would be seriously impressive.

If the MTT S80 was manufactured by the likes of Samsung, it's a lot less impressive.

According to the Tom's Hardware article:

"... so the Chinese fabless semiconductor company is a newcomer to the graphics card game..."

 

So, some 3rd party it looks like, but it doesn't reveal who

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According to these benchmarks, the MTT S80 struggles to compete with a GeForce GT 1030:

 

S80-GAMES-1.thumb.jpg.e923b8e6588ad4aec04d7462ca1a099c.jpg

 

S80-GAMES-2.thumb.jpg.7e3cbc51a4a4123025d34ef96992f575.jpg

 

Quote

The S80 has a list of hardware restrictions, as it only works with certain motherboards and monitors. Furthermore, MTT S80 does not support the latest Windows and many of the modern games. This card is currently restricted to DX9 games, and it doesn’t even support tessellation as per other reviews.

 

The card was put against GeForce GTX 1060 and GT 1030, both based on the same Pascal architecture. Despite their age, these cards are much better options than S80 for gaming, although the Chinese card is advertised as such. Although MTT’s and NVIDIA’s architectures are years apart, the 30W GT 1030 which is a passive design outperforms this 250W card in nearly all game benchmarks.

 

https://videocardz.com/newz/moore-threads-mtt-s80-gpu-struggles-to-compete-with-30w-geforce-gt-1030-in-gaming-tests

             

 

        

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11 hours ago, BiG StroOnZ said:

According to these benchmarks, the MTT S80 struggles to compete with a GeForce GT 1030:

Quote

Although MTT’s and NVIDIA’s architectures are years apart, the 30W GT 1030 which is a passive design outperforms this 250W card in nearly all game benchmarks.

https://videocardz.com/newz/moore-threads-mtt-s80-gpu-struggles-to-compete-with-30w-geforce-gt-1030-in-gaming-tests


OOF. I don't think driver optimizations can save this. Even Intel ARC was at least better than this on release. But I think we expected this, since the MUSA cores are based on powervr. It's basically a mobile GPU in a larger format for desktop. Which means the directx performances will be trash. It might be a bit better in other type of scenarios.

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On 2/6/2023 at 4:24 PM, Mark Kaine said:

Eh, dumb question, why is this driver thing so complicated?  

it seems almost something that needs to be done on per game basis  - i know it's an old problem  - but why?

 

Shouldn't that stuff be standardized (more)?

Because it's conceptually simple to draw some diagrams of how these things work, in reality you got to handle things like:

  • Map API requests to the driver to hardware instructions (not all instructions are implemented in hardware directly),
  • Handle interrupts,
  • Synchronise data transfers at the correct moment (timing is key with these sort of things),
  • Get DMA working if you want performance that ain't complete shit, but new DMA controller designs can be temperamental beasts,
  • Take into account the oddities of the OS and it's different versions,
  • Graphics APIs can be surprisingly inconsistent between versions, and the fact that most software developers make APIs that are wholly incompatible with the concept of hardware doesn't help very much. e.g., it's nice that you have your OO-based model where you can set everything as a value in an object, but it'd be way nicer if you would actually manually push that to the hardware ahead of time, so we (electronics folks) don't have to kind of guess when it should happen when we're tasked with writing driver code that implements said API.
  • The many differences between Intel, AMD, etc. hardware,
  • and so on.

Ran into loads of issues like this when making custom hardware with FPGA PCIe cards, so I can only imagine it's way worse for graphics cards.

 

That being said, DirectX looks quite nice compared to OpenGL. To keep it polite, OpenGL is a fucking piece-of-shit hell-spawn clusterfuck graphics API that should have died before anyone ever released it, and SGI dying is entirely justified because they released that scourge on the world. Vulkan is slightly better, but it's still pretty damn awful in some ways, and don't get me started on OpenCL. I don't think Khronos group maintains one standard that's actually focused on readability and usability.

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14 minutes ago, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

Because it's conceptually simple to draw some diagrams of how these things work, in reality you got to handle things like:

  • Map API requests to the driver to hardware instructions (not all instructions are implemented in hardware directly),
  • Handle interrupts,
  • Synchronise data transfers at the correct moment (timing is key with these sort of things),
  • Get DMA working if you want performance that ain't complete shit, but new DMA controller designs can be temperamental beasts,
  • Take into account the oddities of the OS and it's different versions,
  • Graphics APIs can be surprisingly inconsistent between versions, and the fact that most software developers make APIs that are wholly incompatible with the concept of hardware doesn't help very much. e.g., it's nice that you have your OO-based model where you can set everything as a value in an object, but it'd be way nicer if you would actually manually push that to the hardware ahead of time, so we (electronics folks) don't have to kind of guess when it should happen when we're tasked with writing driver code that implements said API.
  • The many differences between Intel, AMD, etc. hardware,
  • and so on.

Ran into loads of issues like this when making custom hardware with FPGA PCIe cards, so I can only imagine it's way worse for graphics cards.

 

That being said, DirectX looks quite nice compared to OpenGL. To keep it polite, OpenGL is a fucking piece-of-shit hell-spawn clusterfuck graphics API that should have died before anyone ever released it, and SGI dying is entirely justified because they released that scourge on the world. Vulkan is slightly better, but it's still pretty damn awful in some ways, and don't get me started on OpenCL. I don't think Khronos group maintains one standard that's actually focused on readability and usability.

See I knew it was complicated! 

 

But yeah, lots of competing standards and tweaked apis, etc... tldr is its more complex than it should be?

 

The whole graphics pipeline should be more unified i guess - plus personally im not a fan of "polygons" i mean with all the hardware advances game graphics are still mostly blocky and edgy (and have typically lots of (physics based) clipping ...)

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

The whole graphics pipeline should be more unified i guess - plus personally im not a fan of "polygons" i mean with all the hardware advances game graphics are still mostly blocky and edgy (and have typically lots of (physics based) clipping ...)

Polygons are nice and simple to do math with though, a lot of choices are based on making it easy to do a lot of calculations in parallel. And often it's more efficient to do mindless calculations than to actually put some logic behind it if you got to be quick.

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