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Will a DAC make a difference for my setup?

G9XFTW
Go to solution Solved by JimTheBeet,

Allways upgrade the speakers/headphones before the dac! They will make more of a difference than anything else.

I'm using cheap 2.1 Creative speakers from 2011 which refuse to die.
I sometimes use my BOSE qc 25 for a music listening session. iPad and on my desktop.

Recently I got Apple music and they stream hi-res or something?

Will I benefit in any meaningful way if I  get a DAC for the desktop?

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Likely not, especially if you'll use it for the desktop. A DAC is nice to have when you have high-end headphones.

DAC/AMPs:

Klipsch Heritage Headphone Amplifier

Headphones: Klipsch Heritage HP-3 Walnut, Meze 109 Pro, Beyerdynamic Amiron Home, Amiron Wireless Copper, Tygr 300R, DT880 600ohm Manufaktur, T90, Fidelio X2HR

CPU: Intel 4770, GPU: Asus RTX3080 TUF Gaming OC, Mobo: MSI Z87-G45, RAM: DDR3 16GB G.Skill, PC Case: Fractal Design R4 Black non-iglass, Monitor: BenQ GW2280

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I have a Signstek Q5. It's famous for giving you good quality for $20, and being great when you upgrade the caps. And just like all other ultrabudget gems, it goes by a million other brand names and requires a little research to find a good one for your specific time and location. 

 

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/signstek-mini-usb-dac-sleeper-dac-and-mod.775982/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dac-going-stupid-cheap.1099/

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/cheapo-singstek-hifi-usb-dac-recap.870280/

lumpy chunks

 

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1 hour ago, manikyath said:

probably nothing noticeable enough to warrant the cost.

 

better put the budget towards a new audio setup if you want to have a better listening experience.

Will equipping a DAC to these make a huge difference?

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4 minutes ago, G9XFTW said:

Will equipping a DAC to these make a huge difference?

Probably not, unless your current DAC is pretty broken.

 

I have a hard time distinguishing between DAC's even on really expensive speakers.

LTT's Resident Porsche fanboy and nutjob Audiophile.

 

Main speaker setup is now;

 

Mini DSP SHD Studio -> 2x Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC's (fed by AES/EBU, one feeds the left sub and main, the other feeds the right side) -> 2x Neumann KH420 + 2x Neumann KH870

 

(Having a totally seperate DAC for each channel is game changing for sound quality)

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34 minutes ago, G9XFTW said:

Will equipping a DAC to these make a huge difference?

i mean.. i havent heard them, but given that bluetooth is a major keyword on this set of ~ $120 speakers with a builtin amplifier.. probably not.

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With Speakers:

Better Speakers  THEN Improved Positioning THEN Room Treatment THEN other stuff (DAC, Amp, etc.)
 

With headphones:

Better Headphones THEN Improved seating (experiment a bit) THEN other stuff (DAC, Amp, etc.)

 

The only real benefit from a better DAC, assuming your gear isn't defective or flawed would be more features. For the most part DACs were a solved problem 20 years ago. Since then computers got way better/cheaper. Today's cheapest DAC are better than many of the "good amps" 20 years ago at a microchip level (YMMV in terms of implementation). A $10 lighting to Aux dongle for an iPhone is "good enough" for most headphones (the amp is another story).

If you get a noticeable shift from an DAC, it means that something was defective in your chain before. With speakers, moving your head 2" one way or another will have a bigger impact than a DAC upgrade. 

3900x | 32GB RAM | RTX 2080

1.5TB Optane P4800X | 2TB Micron 1100 SSD | 16TB NAS w/ 10Gbe
QN90A | Polk R200, ELAC OW4.2, PB12-NSD, SB1000, HD800
 

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Yeah definitely not in terms of what to upgrade first it's always get good speaker/headphones first. And amp or dac upgrade always depends on what headphones/speakers you end up getting and if your source sounds good the benefit of a dac can be questionable and worth always depends on the end user 

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3 hours ago, G9XFTW said:

Will equipping a DAC to these make a huge difference?

A dac to those all you would really be doing is ensuring a clean clear signal with no noise and neutrality.  The difference if you know what your looking for can be really noticable or if the source your comparing to just sucks and is noisy or isn't neutral

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Take this forum post for what it's worth - https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/dac-blind-test-no-audible-difference-whatsoever.314762/

No one in that sample was able to tell the difference between a $30 DAC and a $3000 DAC when they didn't know what it was. They COULD tell when they were told what was being done (aka placebo effect). 

3900x | 32GB RAM | RTX 2080

1.5TB Optane P4800X | 2TB Micron 1100 SSD | 16TB NAS w/ 10Gbe
QN90A | Polk R200, ELAC OW4.2, PB12-NSD, SB1000, HD800
 

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10 hours ago, JimTheBeet said:

Allways upgrade the speakers/headphones before the dac! They will make more of a difference than anything else.

True words.  IMO it goes 1. headphones or speakers 2. pads 3. amp and dac and depending on the level of everything the actual source can be the difference between having none of the improvements or all of the improvements you've made.

Open-Back - Sennheiser 6xx - Focal Elex - Phillips Fidelio X3 - Harmonicdyne Zeus -  Beyerdynamic DT1990 - *HiFi-man HE400i (2017) - *Phillips shp9500 - *SoundMAGIC HP200

Semi-Open - Beyerdynamic DT880-600 - Fostex T50RP - *AKG K240 studio

Closed-Back - Rode NTH-100 - Meze 99 Neo - AKG K361-BT - Blue Microphones Lola - *Beyerdynamic DT770-80 - *Meze 99 Noir - *Blon BL-B60 *Hifiman R7dx

On-Ear - Koss KPH30iCL Grado - Koss KPH30iCL Yaxi - Koss KPH40 Yaxi

IEM - Tin HiFi T2 - MoonDrop Quarks - Tangzu Wan'er S.G - Moondrop Chu - QKZ x HBB - 7HZ Salnotes Zero

Headset Turtle Beach Stealth 700 V2 + xbox adapter - *Sennheiser Game One - *Razer Kraken Pro V2

DAC S.M.S.L SU-9

Class-D dac/amp Topping DX7 - Schiit Fulla E - Fosi Q4 - *Sybasonic SD-DAC63116

Class-D amp Topping A70

Class-A amp Emotiva A-100 - Xduoo MT-602 (hybrid tube)

Pure Tube amp Darkvoice 336SE - Little dot MKII - Nobsound Little Bear P7

Audio Interface Rode AI-1

Portable Amp Xduoo XP2-pro - *Truthear SHIO - *Fiio BTR3K BTR3Kpro 

Mic Rode NT1 - *Antlion Mod Mic - *Neego Boom Mic - *Vmoda Boom Mic

Pads ZMF - Dekoni - Brainwavz - Shure - Yaxi - Grado - Wicked Cushions

Cables Hart Audio Cables - Periapt Audio Cables

Speakers Kef Q950 - Micca RB42 - Jamo S803 - Crown XLi1500 (power amp class A)

 

*given as gift or out of commission

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upgrade the analog end of your setup (speakers/headphones) first. then if you notice noise or harmonic distortion, start thinking about upgrading to a good DAC. otherwise save the money.

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10 minutes ago, Stan2292 said:

upgrade the analog end of your setup (speakers/headphones) first. then if you notice noise or harmonic distortion, start thinking about upgrading to a good DAC. otherwise save the money.

The thing is, that you probably don't notice the distortion without a reference point of what it "should" sound like.  It's very difficult to judge what music "should" sound like but when I go from an apple dongle dac to a schiit fulla I know which of the two is closer to the intended sound.

Open-Back - Sennheiser 6xx - Focal Elex - Phillips Fidelio X3 - Harmonicdyne Zeus -  Beyerdynamic DT1990 - *HiFi-man HE400i (2017) - *Phillips shp9500 - *SoundMAGIC HP200

Semi-Open - Beyerdynamic DT880-600 - Fostex T50RP - *AKG K240 studio

Closed-Back - Rode NTH-100 - Meze 99 Neo - AKG K361-BT - Blue Microphones Lola - *Beyerdynamic DT770-80 - *Meze 99 Noir - *Blon BL-B60 *Hifiman R7dx

On-Ear - Koss KPH30iCL Grado - Koss KPH30iCL Yaxi - Koss KPH40 Yaxi

IEM - Tin HiFi T2 - MoonDrop Quarks - Tangzu Wan'er S.G - Moondrop Chu - QKZ x HBB - 7HZ Salnotes Zero

Headset Turtle Beach Stealth 700 V2 + xbox adapter - *Sennheiser Game One - *Razer Kraken Pro V2

DAC S.M.S.L SU-9

Class-D dac/amp Topping DX7 - Schiit Fulla E - Fosi Q4 - *Sybasonic SD-DAC63116

Class-D amp Topping A70

Class-A amp Emotiva A-100 - Xduoo MT-602 (hybrid tube)

Pure Tube amp Darkvoice 336SE - Little dot MKII - Nobsound Little Bear P7

Audio Interface Rode AI-1

Portable Amp Xduoo XP2-pro - *Truthear SHIO - *Fiio BTR3K BTR3Kpro 

Mic Rode NT1 - *Antlion Mod Mic - *Neego Boom Mic - *Vmoda Boom Mic

Pads ZMF - Dekoni - Brainwavz - Shure - Yaxi - Grado - Wicked Cushions

Cables Hart Audio Cables - Periapt Audio Cables

Speakers Kef Q950 - Micca RB42 - Jamo S803 - Crown XLi1500 (power amp class A)

 

*given as gift or out of commission

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21 hours ago, Psittac said:

The thing is, that you probably don't notice the distortion without a reference point of what it "should" sound like.  It's very difficult to judge what music "should" sound like but when I go from an apple dongle dac to a schiit fulla I know which of the two is closer to the intended sound.

 

It's possible to send a "known" signal through a DAC and to measure the expected output. The measured outputs are usually VERY VERY VERY close. If you have a DAC 1 spitting out signal with ~120dB of dynamic range after factoring in signal noise and another one, DAC 2, spitting out ~123dB of dynamic range it's unlikely that a human will hear the difference. That's brushing up against the limits of human hearing. The latter DAC might cost 5x to cut the noise floor down by something like 0.02dB... and the limits of human hearing are generally understood to be around 0.5dB. 

The processing part is mostly a solved problem. The implementation of the analog out is non-trivial and good engineering, design and implementation costs money... but for non-defective products... getting to 99-9.99% generally costs under $30 (assume away doing crazy multi-channel designs with TONS of processing). Your breathing will mostly mask that benefit. 

Not saying the Apple lightning to Aux adapter is the pinnacle of design (it's mostly made to be small, cheap and energy efficient - tons of things outperform it and an argument could be made that they're audibly better if even slightly so) but it outperforms $10,000 DACs from the early 1980s which were "fine" back then and received profoundly laudatory reviews. 
 

 

3900x | 32GB RAM | RTX 2080

1.5TB Optane P4800X | 2TB Micron 1100 SSD | 16TB NAS w/ 10Gbe
QN90A | Polk R200, ELAC OW4.2, PB12-NSD, SB1000, HD800
 

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On 12/7/2022 at 2:20 AM, cmndr said:

Not saying the Apple lightning to Aux adapter is the pinnacle of design (it's mostly made to be small, cheap and energy efficient - tons of things outperform it and an argument could be made that they're audibly better if even slightly so) but it outperforms $10,000 DACs from the early 1980s which were "fine" back then and received profoundly laudatory reviews.

I mean, the Apple Dongle even outperforms the Chord Mojo in some areas, and matches in the rest. Which is a £10 device versus a £500 one.

 

Hell, I do half of my listening now through a Behringer UMC22 which feeds two JBL LSR308 Mk2's. Like 600 dollars for a 2 channel setup, and it rocks.

LTT's Resident Porsche fanboy and nutjob Audiophile.

 

Main speaker setup is now;

 

Mini DSP SHD Studio -> 2x Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC's (fed by AES/EBU, one feeds the left sub and main, the other feeds the right side) -> 2x Neumann KH420 + 2x Neumann KH870

 

(Having a totally seperate DAC for each channel is game changing for sound quality)

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14 hours ago, Derkoli said:

I mean, the Apple Dongle even outperforms the Chord Mojo in some areas, and matches in the rest. Which is a £10 device versus a £500 one.

 

Hell, I do half of my listening now through a Behringer UMC22 which feeds two JBL LSR308 Mk2's. Like 600 dollars for a 2 channel setup, and it rocks.

I tend to emphasize measurements because measurements are reproducible 

The $10ish dongle is adequate. It's not too far off from the iPhone that preceded it. 
The issue with listening tests is that you could take the same set up, tell someone that the highs are going to be better, they'll focus more on the highs and then conclude that the "fix" did something great. Peoples' focus shifts and each listening session will have different things focused on, even if it's the same gear, person and environment. Add in comb filtering effects from moving around and well... 
And yeah, the comb filtering thing affects the sounds entering your ear MUCH more than a marginally cleaner DAC. 

 

I do want to emphasize though, defective gear is bad. 
 

3900x | 32GB RAM | RTX 2080

1.5TB Optane P4800X | 2TB Micron 1100 SSD | 16TB NAS w/ 10Gbe
QN90A | Polk R200, ELAC OW4.2, PB12-NSD, SB1000, HD800
 

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