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Mercedes to Offer Subscription for Performance Boost to Electric Cars

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4 minutes ago, Heliian said:

You don't get it.  

 

No one is complaining about a different purchased option that stays with the car. 

 

It's paywalling already existing components that is stupid.  People trying to justify paywalls is ludicrous.

 

Personally, I think mercedes has gone off a cliff but their target demo are generally idiots with a few dollars to spend on a status symbol.  BMW et al are doing it to try and lower the initial entry price to sucker in more idiots.

 

It has nothing to do with saving them money, it's the old razzle dazzle. 

I do get it. When you buy a car, but don't have the cash for it, you get a loan. You make monthly payments to the bank. If you don't make those payments, they remove your access to a car. When you don't pay the $1200 a year for the software switch, they remove your access to that part of the car. "Subscriptions" have been around much longer than people like to think. They just think too acutely about what a subscription is.

Have a mortgage? You have a subscription to that house until you pay it off.

It all gets people to spend more on items with money they will have in the future. 

Yes $1200 is a whole lot for what Mercedes is doing here, but it's also $1200 you don't have to spend each year. The cost of the car also isn't going down. The EQS is supposed to be going up by $6000 sticker. It'd be different if the price dropped to compensate for that $1200 a year, but it's not. There is no lowering of initial entry price. 

 

I'd be completely okay with it if the price went down. $102,000 in 2022 for a EQS, to say $95,000 in 2023. Then you could say it's a lower barrier and it takes 6 years for you to be spending more on the software unlock. I'm okay with the idea, but not the delivery. We're going to end up with everything being subscription based at some point anyways. Have fun with yalls pitchforks. 

I'm not actually trying to be as grumpy as it seems.

I will find your mentions of Ikea or Gnome and I will /s post. 

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New 2023 model now with fee based braking!!

Want to just stop like a brick? $45/incident

Want to stop but not as fast? $90/incident

 

We'll bill you per incident or per month with a 5% fee!

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1 hour ago, Heliian said:

You don't get it.  

 

No one is complaining about a different purchased option that stays with the car. 

 

It's paywalling already existing components that is stupid.  People trying to justify paywalls is ludicrous.

 

Personally, I think mercedes has gone off a cliff but their target demo are generally idiots with a few dollars to spend on a status symbol.  BMW et al are doing it to try and lower the initial entry price to sucker in more idiots.

 

It has nothing to do with saving them money, it's the old razzle dazzle. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, HenrySalayne said:

I feel like you're just shitposting, TBH. Because these are three physically different engines. Somebody would have to take out the old one and put in a new one to make a switch. 

Here we are talking about identical engines with different "firmwares" the manufacturer can just change with a flick of a switch.

 

Again, it's psychological. 

 

Your default stance is that you're not getting the most out of the hardware you purchased. Based on the standard model, that's a perfectly reasonable response. My gut says the same. 

 

But I'm also able to step back, and at least attempt to look at it, even philosophically if nothing else, and see if there could be cases it makes sense (and it might not here).

 

For example, instead of getting ripped off on the hardware you bought. Perhaps they just gave you better hardware than you paid for, in the hopes you'll upgrade and stay with them longer. It's almost a glass half full/empty scenario. 

 

Let's try another example. 

 

You walk into a PC shop to buy a 3060. I only have 3080s. The 3060 has been discontinued as it was too expensive to make a bunch of different cards. But good news, I can tune the 3080 to a 3060 if you like, and will only charge you for a 3060.

 

As a slightly added bonus, if you ever want to bring it back and pay the difference, I'll put it back to a 3080 for you. I think most people would take that deal. It's a different business model to get used to, and you don't have to even like it. But I don't think it's as outrageous as some make it out to be.

 

Some even make it sound like I'd have a moral obligation to give you the 3080 at a 3060 price. No, your options are take my offer, or only the more expensive 3080s exist. 

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2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I don't have any issue with this as long as there is an option to pay once and get the same feature.

To me, this is just as "outrageous" as Microsoft locking features out of Windows 10 Home and expecting me to pay extra for the "pro" model to get it, even though it doesn't cost them any extra for the "pro" license.

Wanna use all of that RAM your PC has? Sorry, you gotta pay us extra to use it.

Wanna use your second CPU? Sorry, you gotta pay us extra for it.

Want to be able to bundle NICs? Sorry, but only customers that pay extra can do that.

 

 

But if it is only available as a subscription, which it seems like judging by the screenshots, then Mercedes deserves all the backlash they may get from this.

I agree for the most part.

 

If there is an option to outright purchase it, I don't have an issue with a subscription model.  With that said, given they are charging $1200 it really seems like they won't offer a buyout of the option.

 

I especially have less of an issue when it involves simplifying a SKU, where things can be "upgraded" after the fact for an outright purchase.  Although, as you pointed out neither really sounds like it's occurring.

 

The other thing I am okay with is if the subscription requires back-end support...e.g. Tesla and FSD subscription where there is active millions being paid to develop it (and in some cases they have to offer free equipment changes).

 

2 hours ago, Dedayog said:

Tesla took it a step further by paying to unlock Ludicrous speed.

Apparently Ludicrous mode required a replacement of a fuse and another additional hardware.

 

In general, I'm not against companies selling higher "speed" vehicles though that is paywall locked.  The issue I have not allowing for a full purchase.

 

 

One thing to note, whether talking about this or Tesla's Ludicrous mode is that it's going to naturally put more wear on the battery if it's done more frequently.  So part of the prices might also include the fact they expect a higher warranty replacement of the battery packs.  [Not really justifying it, I haven't looked into it too much so I don't know the amount of wear it might do]

3735928559 - Beware of the dead beef

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4 hours ago, Dedayog said:

Stops it?  It's great.  You can now pay for the power you want.  Any idea how many people don't WANT the 400+ horsepower in their high end Mercs?  They buy a Mercedes for luxury, not necessarily power.

 

Granted, if they're reducing the price and then charging more, great.  But I bet they're charging a lot, then charging more.

 

The problem with this way of thinking, is that its not like they sell you the car cheaper. It will still be the same price, you're paying the subscription for a software unlock. Most high end cars already come with 'eco' mode which tunes the car down, with Sport & Racing/Corsa modes for high power output and tuned gearing/suspension/etc...

 

Imagine getting an iPhone 14 with only 4 CPU cores & 3 GPU cores enabled. and you pay a $150/yearly sub to enable the other 2 CPU & 2 GPU cores...

 

This is the same issue with BMW and their subscriptions like heated seats. It's already a feature of the car and it has no ongoing cost to the manufacturer, so it shouldn't be a subscription. Subscriptions are for services with recurring costs, in cars things such as GPS navigation, Road assistance, Infotainment, OTA Updates, etc...

 

As much as i'm not a fan of Teslas build quality, at least with their software additions such as the Acceleration Upgrade, or Auto-Pilot, you pay a one off upgrade fee to enable it. Not an ongoing subscription for something your vehicle is capable of without further support from the manufacturer. 

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25 minutes ago, Jarsky said:

 

The problem with this way of thinking, is that its not like they sell you the car cheaper. It will still be the same price,

 

Well this is what most of us assume, but there's no real way to quantify it. We don't know what this years model would have cost. Nobody can say precisely what the 2 versions "should" cost. They set the cost. I think it's just as likely the alternative was only the higher end model, with no option, and for the higher price. 

 

Utlimately there are 2 versions at 2 different prices. Period. All you can do is do your best to look at the price/value between the 2, and between other cars in the same class, and make a decision. Just like it's always been. How the company got there could just be considered almost moot at that point. 

 

Does the low end model still give you what you'd expect at that price? Great! Does it feel nerfed for the price, then the value is no good and you buy elsewhere. No different than a million other things that can make a purchase a bad one for an individual. The more I think about it, the more I don't think I care what components are in it. It's just about price/featres/performance.

 

That's all ignoring the subscription aspect. Bringing that into the equation, and F$*% Mercedes. make it a one time upgrade.

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3 hours ago, Holmes108 said:

Obviously because it benefits them in the big picture.

Otherwise they wouldn't do it.  There is no such thing as free lunch, especially not from companies like Mercedes and NVIDIA.

 

Maybe you didn't hear it: A while ago Mercedes made the statement that they will "concentrate on luxury cars".  Besides other things, it means that they are committed to making money and nothing but.  It means that they're cutting their losses on electrical cars before they occur because they can't build an electrical car for a reasonable price and make enough money with it for it to be worthwhile for them.  It means that Mercedes, which is a company that goes basically back to the very inventor of the car himself, withdraws themselves from the market.  It's because our parasites are forcing electric cars on us, and it will cost about 10 million jobs in this country over the next 10 years.  So don't assume that Mercedes would do anything that doesn't benefit them.

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20 minutes ago, heimdali said:

  So don't assume that Mercedes would do anything that doesn't benefit them.

 

Of course! And so for that exact reason (corporate greed), as I mention above, there's no reason to assume there was any alternative other than paying more for the "unlocked" version of the car. At least there's a "locked" version for cheaper then. Better than a kick in the nuts I suppose.

 

Edit: Well, I guess option 2 is for them to manufacture a completely different version for cheaper. But if that wasn't in the cards, then this is the next best things perhaps?

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1 hour ago, Holmes108 said:

 

Of course! And so for that exact reason (corporate greed), as I mention above, there's no reason to assume there was any alternative other than paying more for the "unlocked" version of the car. At least there's a "locked" version for cheaper then. Better than a kick in the nuts I suppose.

 

Edit: Well, I guess option 2 is for them to manufacture a completely different version for cheaper. But if that wasn't in the cards, then this is the next best things perhaps?

No, there's no cheaper version?  Or is there?  There's probably only one version and you have to pay extra over and over again to get what you already payed for in the first place.

 

More power means you need better brakes.  Better brakes cost more.  Messing with the software doesn't give you better brakes, so you pay for them, no matter if you need them or not ...  And who knows what else you all pay for you don't need.

 

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8 hours ago, heimdali said:

More power means you need better brakes.  Better brakes cost more.  Messing with the software doesn't give you better brakes, so you pay for them, no matter if you need them or not ...  And who knows what else you all pay for you don't need.

Not really.  The brakes need to be powerful enough to stop the EV motors themselves due to regulations but the torque of the motors are likely to have been the same anyways (except this one it just means being able to apply the torque while at higher speeds).  So the brake pads are probably the same, they can use regenerative braking to do the braking.  [It's actually why you don't actually go through that many brakepads when driving an EV or hybrid...most of the braking is accomplished through regen braking]

3735928559 - Beware of the dead beef

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The part i really dont like is the subscription model.

 

Charging more for more power on Car has always been a thing. Vehicle manfutures have has 2 or more vehicles use the exact same motor for 2 different versions of the car (i think the old w203 shape the C220 and C200 were like that, and the Mk4 golf Gti and Mk4 Polo GTI also but the polo gti had 20 kW less). It makes the car alot cheaper to make and design. 

 

I can actually see this happening far more with electric cars as standardising the motor across different versions at different price points make quite alot of sense to actually making electric cars more affordable. 

 

This should be a one time fee. Im okay with one time fees for vehicles especially when you buying second hand. Oh original buyer didnt want the extra power or heated seats and new owner would like them there will be a purchase option after you brought the vehicle. This also leaves the option by getting it enables by a third party thats not the OEM.

 

They could have done it the PC Maker way and created a "TI" or "K" version of the car with all power enabled for a higher price which leaves the early adoptors with some buyers remorse.

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2 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Not really.  The brakes need to be powerful enough to stop the EV motors themselves due to regulations but the torque of the motors are likely to have been the same anyways (except this one it just means being able to apply the torque while at higher speeds).  So the brake pads are probably the same, they can use regenerative braking to do the braking.  [It's actually why you don't actually go through that many brakepads when driving an EV or hybrid...most of the braking is accomplished through regen braking]

It's probably not legal to rely on engine braking.  Going by your logic, you'd need motors that can brake more because you still need to be able to brake more when at higher speeds.  Double the acc-/deceleration, and you need four times the power.

 

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16 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

"Subscriptions" have been around much longer than people like to think.

And you still haven't understood the difference between a subscription and a loan.

 

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17 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

Because no company ever has charged more for different engine options.

Maybe you don't understand the difference between buying and owning something and buying something and still not owning it but having to keep paying for it for no reason other than someone being in a position to extort money from you.  I'm not sure if it's the right word, but doing that seems to be called extortion, and I don't see why I should subject myself to that sort of crime.  Since I can't do anything about it, the only option is not to buy.

 

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16 hours ago, Holmes108 said:

I can tune the 3080 to a 3060 if you like, and will only charge you for a 3060.

And the hardware is so shitty that you have to do it every month or it will stop working, which is the reason why I have to keep paying you all the time?

 

After you figured out how to tune it --- I'm certainly not coming to your store, I don't want you to come to my home either, and making myself vulnerable over the internet or the like is out of the question --- I'd tell you you can give me the card for free and once I stop using it, I'll sell it to you for a good price.  Otherwise I'll buy something else or nothing at all.

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16 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

  So part of the prices might also include the fact they expect a higher warranty replacement of the battery packs.  [Not really justifying it, I haven't looked into it too much so I don't know the amount of wear it might do]

They're just gona say well, you've subscribed to the more power plan, and that voids your warranty, or you have to pay a much higher share of the replacement cost.

 

They'd be stupid to make it a buyable thing: You already payed for the more powerful car when you bought it and they make more money for nothing by having you keep paying to use it.  At first it's only more power, the next step is braking and then your car won't even move without you paying all over again for it, and it will $2000 per month.

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3 hours ago, heimdali said:

And the hardware is so shitty that you have to do it every month or it will stop working, which is the reason why I have to keep paying you all the time?

 

After you figured out how to tune it --- I'm certainly not coming to your store, I don't want you to come to my home either, and making myself vulnerable over the internet or the like is out of the question --- I'd tell you you can give me the card for free and once I stop using it, I'll sell it to you for a good price.  Otherwise I'll buy something else or nothing at all.

I'll be honest, I don't think I really know what any of that means. But if you're talking about the subscription aspect of it, then yes, I've agreed subscriptions are stupid and a ripoff if it doesn't require ongoing maintenance from the provider.

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It was only a matter of time before the "xxx as a service" BS infected the car industry. Seems only fitting MB was the first one to implement it.

I would say I would never buy this MB, but let's be honest, I'm not their target market to begin with.

 

NOTE: I no longer frequent this site. If you really need help, PM/DM me and my e.mail will alert me. 

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22 hours ago, Dedayog said:

But every car company leaves performance on the table and then we pay for mods or tunes to unlock it.

You're not "unlocking" the performance. Everything comes at a cost. Even a vehicle that can withstand 600HP continuously for 10 years, you increase power output to 1000HP, you've decreased the lifespan because the powertrain is under more stress everywhere. With modern engines, very little can be done to actually "optimize" it. It's pretty much already at peak performance in regards to air and fuel going into the engine, and how it's being used. To get more power to the wheels, you either have to cram more air/fuel into the engine, or you physically modify the engine to use lighter parts. But that additional air/fuel means less lifespan. 

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4 minutes ago, Holmes108 said:

I'll be honest, I don't think I really know what any of that means. But if you're talking about the subscription aspect of it, then yes, I've agreed subscriptions are stupid and a ripoff if it doesn't require ongoing maintenance from the provider.

Well, it doesn't matter, they are doing it and people will be so stupid as to buy it and pay for it, same as they will be paying Intel to be allowed to use the CPUs they payed for.  Then Intel and Mercedes will say your CPU or car is EOL and you need to buy a new one to use it because we can't support hardware that is EOL.  And of course, Intel isn't going to stop at server CPUs.  NVIDIA will follow closely and do the same for graphics cards.  It's great for Mercedes because they don't need to have spare parts for longer than 3 years anymore, and Intel couldn't care less that the used hardware with their CPUs is worthless after 3 years.

 

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20 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

I do get it. When you buy a car, but don't have the cash for it, you get a loan. You make monthly payments to the bank. If you don't make those payments, they remove your access to a car. When you don't pay the $1200 a year for the software switch, they remove your access to that part of the car. "Subscriptions" have been around much longer than people like to think. They just think too acutely about what a subscription is.

Have a mortgage? You have a subscription to that house until you pay it off.

It all gets people to spend more on items with money they will have in the future. 

A true subscription never ends until you stop it. A loan ends when you pay it off. Maybe in someone's lifetime, a mortgage loan could realistically be considered a subscription. But there are specific laws in place, so it's not quite the same thing anyway.

"It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out." - Carl Sagan.

"I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you" - Edward I. Koch

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7 minutes ago, Godlygamer23 said:

you increase power output to 1000HP, you've decreased the lifespan

But who cares?  It's your car, so you're the one who pays for the maintenance, and the dealership and Mercedes makes money from it.

 

Try to fix a rear differential for an E class ...  They made it so that you can just as well replace the whole car.  So there's no problem with increasing power from 600 to 1000HP, the car will be EOL before it's worn out anyway and you have to buy a new one.

 

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Just now, heimdali said:

But who cares?  It's your car, so you're the one who pays for the maintenance, and the dealership and Mercedes makes money from it.

The entire point is you're not unlocking performance. Additionally, if you're modding your car, I doubt you're taking it to the dealership for maintenance. 

"It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out." - Carl Sagan.

"I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you" - Edward I. Koch

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10 minutes ago, heimdali said:

But who cares?  It's your car, so you're the one who pays for the maintenance, and the dealership and Mercedes makes money from it.

 

Nobody cares, but you're making the conscious choice to do it and are presumably aware of the risks at that point. Another example is batteries get "limited" in electric cars so you aren't using 100% of the capacity (for longevity, I'm not talking about for upselling), etc.. so it can become a little grey as to what is "100%" of the product you paid for, and are they ripping you off by holding back for various reasons. Cars also come with governors on the engine, at least in some instances in some places.

 

None of this is exactly relevant to the heated seats controversy or this one, but when talking about the broader practice of limiting functions, it's just not unheard of, is all.

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