Bye bye lightning.... HELLO USB-C || Long-awaited common charger for mobile devices will be a reality in 2024

[wanderingfool2]

46 minutes ago, tikker said:

Good, because that's the point. We can't have it all. Twice as much for half the price would be great, but often not the reality. I'm fine with paying a bit more for standardisation and proper cables. Unless you mean companies will completely stop any production of chargers, in which case I think that's overexaggerating. Production of chargers will still exist, it'll just (have to) scale down if this is successful.

What will happen, they will stop providing them because "people already have the chargers"...and then provide their own chargers for like a $30 - $40 first party cost...but doing so without lowering the price.  The point was to eliminate e-waste, and I'm not sure that it will.  People are cheap, they will buy a cheaper one and then when it comes time to charge their laptop they will wonder why it doesn't work.  You will end up with them still having to purchase a wallwart anyways or in a worst case they think the device is broken (and the device ends up as e-waste).  Then you have a scenario where a failing wall-wart now has the opportunity to fry not just one device but multiple devices before someone realizes.

 

47 minutes ago, tikker said:

I'm happy to accept the lightning connector itself was better from a physical point of view, but can it match USB in terms of data transfer and display capabilities? If it wasn't kept proprietary maybe it would have won out, except that was probably never going to happen.

I think it can handle USB 3 speeds...but Apple chose to keep the phones on the older standard.  Even if Apple had a royalty free the patent of it, no one would likely have started using it (just look at Tesla, when their connector was ahead in terms of charging speed and less bulky than CCS2 standard people still went with the CCS2...despite the fact that they could have gotten the propriety connector for free...since they effectively have a very similar to GPL license with it).

 

57 minutes ago, tikker said:

To a certain extent, that is again the goal. The intent is that it will pretty much be matching numbers for consumers. Brick says 60 W? Buy a cable that says 60 W. It should be as simple as that if marketing goes well, and manufacturers stick to what they're told to advertise.

These are the same consumers that purchase power strips and plug too many things into them...or plug computers/printer into extension cords rated at 10A, 120W...because that's what was laying around.  The legislation doesn't say anything about labeling, just that it has to support USB-C plugs and USB PD standards.  Consumers are seriously under informed when it comes to electrical.

 

1 hour ago, tikker said:

The shitty cable argument is tangential. Those are not a new nor a USB-C problem.

It is sort of an issue though.  When you have laptops and other higher power devices that now have compatible "plugs" as low power devices.  What you will find is people will assume it will just work for them.  Since it say USB-C or that it's USB 4.0 certified.

 

1 hour ago, tikker said:

I can't remember a charger that failed on me in a sneaky assassin way, or any way really. I have, however, experienced manufacturers use the exact same barrel jack, but substantially different voltages, for similar devices resulting in me releasing the magic smoke of one of them. Now that's just me, but unless we start hearing story after story of peoples USB-C devices mysteriously dying from chargers, I'm not convinced that this would be a serious issue.

So during my time at work, I've seen a 19V barrel fail (the only reason I decided to investigate was because it was the same person with 2 laptops to plugged into the docking stand).  Had it been other co-workers having broken laptops, I might have seriously considered it might have been a manufacturing defect in the batch (as it happened iirc about a month or two apart)

 

I've also seen laptops with USB-C ports broken (the cord was crimped), I've seen countless phones where the port was broken due to a crimped cable.  I wouldn't say that it's dangerous, just that I have found more issues coming from USB-C than the other ones that this bill is meant to eliminate.  Seriously, at my work we switched away from laptops that used USB-C for this very reason, it was causing too much of an issue than the old barrel ports [and costing more money to effectively maintain].  Not saying that this will always be the case, but I do have a major gripe with USB-C as an universal port.

[Mihle]

I have a classmate that had USB C on phone and laptop, but didn't want to use phone charger on laptop or other way round because the person think that would be weird and was afraid breaking something.

[tikker]

On 10/11/2022 at 9:38 PM, wanderingfool2 said:

What will happen, they will stop providing them because "people already have the chargers"...and then provide their own chargers for like a $30 - $40 first party cost...but doing so without lowering the price.  The point was to eliminate e-waste, and I'm not sure that it will.  People are cheap, they will buy a cheaper one and then when it comes time to charge their laptop they will wonder why it doesn't work.  You will end up with them still having to purchase a wallwart anyways or in a worst case they think the device is broken (and the device ends up as e-waste).  Then you have a scenario where a failing wall-wart now has the opportunity to fry not just one device but multiple devices before someone realizes.

I've agreed with that in some post here or another thread. Ideally it'll indeed turn a $1000 phone+charger into a $950 phone and a $50 charger, but yeah they will probably find a way to make it still a $1000 phone and a $50 charger.

On 10/11/2022 at 9:38 PM, wanderingfool2 said:

These are the same consumers that purchase power strips and plug too many things into them...or plug computers/printer into extension cords rated at 10A, 120W...because that's what was laying around.  The legislation doesn't say anything about labeling, just that it has to support USB-C plugs and USB PD standards.  Consumers are seriously under informed when it comes to electrical.

But UBS-IF does. The marketing guidelines have been presented in this thread and outline the marketing that goes with these products. It will come down to manufacturers listening to what they are told to do for once and also a bit of USB-IF keeping tabs on this more. You can't blame the producer of some charger or chord if the consumer doesn't check what they do. If you decided to pull a 240 W load through a 60 W cable, because you can't bother to check or get a suitable one, I think that's on you. In the case of USB-PD, the power negotiation should prevent that though, as far as I know.

On 10/11/2022 at 9:38 PM, wanderingfool2 said:

I've also seen laptops with USB-C ports broken (the cord was crimped), I've seen countless phones where the port was broken due to a crimped cable.  I wouldn't say that it's dangerous, just that I have found more issues coming from USB-C than the other ones that this bill is meant to eliminate.  Seriously, at my work we switched away from laptops that used USB-C for this very reason, it was causing too much of an issue than the old barrel ports [and costing more money to effectively maintain].  Not saying that this will always be the case, but I do have a major gripe with USB-C as an universal port.

I can definitely tell that on my phone the port is loose and wobbly, so there's no doubt room for improvements or better tolerances on it.

1 hour ago, Mihle said:

I have a classmate that had USBC on phone and laptop, but didn't want to use phone charger on laptop or other way round because the person think that would be weird and was afraid breaking something.

It does, in a way, go against everything we've known so far I was a bit scared of plugging my 60 W laptop charger into my phone the first time even though everything indicated it would be fine.

[wanderingfool2]

6 hours ago, tikker said:

But UBS-IF does. The marketing guidelines have been presented in this thread and outline the marketing that goes with these products. It will come down to manufacturers listening to what they are told to do for once and also a bit of USB-IF keeping tabs on this more. You can't blame the producer of some charger or chord if the consumer doesn't check what they do. If you decided to pull a 240 W load through a 60 W cable, because you can't bother to check or get a suitable one, I think that's on you. In the case of USB-PD, the power negotiation should prevent that though, as far as I know.

The legislation doesn't require USB-IF (which if they did, then that's also an added cost as USB charges a license for that)...also once the USB is out of the package you won't realistically be able to tell.

 

Again, people don't know to look for that kind of thing.  People don't even realize the difference between extension cords currently and power bricks and how they get overloaded....do you really think the consumer should be blamed for using a cable that was advertised as universal...one where the politicians are saying it will eliminate waste because you won't need multiple cables.  People will see an USB-C and likely assume it should work.

 

The USB-PD from my knowledge the charger won't be able to detect the cable's power rating.  (Could be wrong, but I thought there was minimal items in the cable itself)

 

6 hours ago, tikker said:

I can definitely tell that on my phone the port is loose and wobbly, so there's no doubt room for improvements or better tolerances on it.

The problem is it's not about better tolerances or improvements anymore.  The time for that was back when USB-C was being designed.  The biggest issue as well is when it doesn't wobble but there is still stuff stuck.  Some cables might just barely be able to trigger fast charging while others won't in some scenarios when there is just the right amount of junk in it.

 

6 hours ago, tikker said:

It does, in a way, go against everything we've known so far I was a bit scared of plugging my 60 W laptop charger into my phone the first time even though everything indicated it would be fine.

That is where I would be hesitant as well...as if the laptop charger decides to start delivering wonky power, you will likely kill your laptop and your phone before you realize it's the problem (I know it's super rare to happen, but it will eventually happen to people)

[kpluck]

On 10/4/2022 at 10:22 AM, FakeKGB said:

if a cable is MFi certified that means it's Apple-approved. MFi warnings were added in iOS 7 I believe?

I use a USB-C charger with with a USB-C to lighting cable and have never received such a warning. As far as I know it is not happening. I would be curious to see a link to some information that says it is being done.

 

-kp

[WhitetailAni]

1 minute ago, kpluck said:

I use a USB-C charger with with a USB-C to lighting cable and have never received such a warning. As far as I know it is not happening. I would be curious to see a link to some information that says it is being done.

 

-kp

Pretty much every cable is MFi certified, otherwise it doesn't work and you get this popup:

[tikker]

18 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

The legislation doesn't require USB-IF (which if they did, then that's also an added cost as USB charges a license for that)...also once the USB is out of the package you won't realistically be able to tell.

USB-IF is an organisation, so you can't exactly require them, but the legistlation does mandate USB-PD compliance and you can't be compliant without a getting that verified. Their marketing labels include cable and port logos, so even out of the box there should be things on your cable that tell you what it can do.

18 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Again, people don't know to look for that kind of thing.  People don't even realize the difference between extension cords currently and power bricks and how they get overloaded....do you really think the consumer should be blamed for using a cable that was advertised as universal...one where the politicians are saying it will eliminate waste because you won't need multiple cables.  People will see an USB-C and likely assume it should work.

People can be told "hey look for this logo". I agree that the average consumers don't look in-depth into specs, but even the least technical people that don't care about much beyond it working I know can muster the brains and effort to conclude that if I want to use a 100 W charger at full power that I'd need an equally or better rated cable. If manufacturers stop bulshitting the market and label their cables according using the defined marketing terms and logos (which does seem to have improved somewhat in general regarding USB) I think we can get a long way. The cable also is universal, but simply using the connector is not enough, as manufacturers can still implement their own charging voltage, their own fast-charge protocol etc. That is why I like the mandate: to actually arrive at a system at least capable of offering that universality.

 

The split in two ranges is probably partially safety related if I were to guess. My laptop's charger is only 45 W. Aside from more power-hungry workstations and gaming laptops I think there's plenty that can be powered from a 60 W charger. For the higher powers you'd want at least some extra control over the cable so that you won't use flossing wire to power a 240 W beast.

19 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

The USB-PD from my knowledge the charger won't be able to detect the cable's power rating.  (Could be wrong, but I thought there was minimal items in the cable itself)

The charging modes beyond 60 W fall under the extended power range (EPR), which need electronically marked cables. That "marking" to my understanding is a USB-PD chip on the cable, so the charger should be able to tell if a suitable cable is connected.

19 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

The problem is it's not about better tolerances or improvements anymore.  The time for that was back when USB-C was being designed.  The biggest issue as well is when it doesn't wobble but there is still stuff stuck.  Some cables might just barely be able to trigger fast charging while others won't in some scenarios when there is just the right amount of junk in it.

Is Lighting much better if your port is full of junk?

19 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

That is where I would be hesitant as well...as if the laptop charger decides to start delivering wonky power, you will likely kill your laptop and your phone before you realize it's the problem (I know it's super rare to happen, but it will eventually happen to people)

I don't see this as much of an issue. Rare failures will happen regardless and I haven't heard about it happening often enough to worry about USB-PD things failing so far.