Bye bye lightning.... HELLO USB-C || Long-awaited common charger for mobile devices will be a reality in 2024

[LIGISTX]

10 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

innovation

Oops, good catch. 
 

10 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

The law exists primarily because Apple invented lightning.

Sure, but plenty if devices still use mini and micro B, it isn’t just apple. They are a big part, sure. 
 

10 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

Exactly where it is today because lightning is an inferior protocol not just in speed but also power delivery.

 

It uses USB 2.0 for data but lightning can't handle more than 29W of power.

It does have those shortcomings, but it’s a better physical connection. It’s thinner, it’s easier to insert, and it’s less susceptible to breakage. I’m sure they could add more pins instead of it just being 1 sided and solve these issues if they wanted to. But, not really the point. Lightning paved the way for USB C… which is my point. Lightning showed the world there is a better way, and we need to get to the better solution. Has USB C surpassed it, yes, but lightning was out much before and changed the landscape. 
 

10 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

Afaik the law says that the USB-C requirement is a moving target and that if the USB IF need a new charging port in the future then new devices can be forced to use that instead of USB-C.

I hope that is the case. But… I also can’t wait till I have to go a buy a USB C gen 6x8 speedy boi-mega cable. But can’t get the gen 6x8 speedy boi, needs to also be mega or it won’t work with my new phone. Sorry if I am not overly excited to have literally all smartphones and all external connection technology mandated by USB IF…… 

 

Anyways. Point remains, it stifles innovation as it doesn’t allow companies to invent new technologies. If done correctly, it will work fine. But will it work correctly, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Ultraforce]

1 hour ago, FakeKGB said:

So, do y'all remember when iPhones switched from 30-pin to Lightning?

Back then there were 5 models of iPhones in the world and they were relatively new.

Now there's been almost 10 years worth of time to produce buttloads of Lightning accessories, plus iPhones are a lot more popular and more widespread.

 

Do we really want to kill all those off?

Honestly I do as an iPhone XR and formerly iPhone 5S Lightning's stagnation has actually caused me problems the last year or so because of it's slow speed. There was a similar move with 30-pin to Lightning with a lot of devices built around 30 pin. Occasionally things change and old accessory sets will no longer work. Better to do now then in 5 more year.

 

 

5 minutes ago, OhYou_ said:

wow another case of the EU ruining technological progression.
Wireless only phones will happen and I guess they just wont be sold there then LOL

The regulation specifically talks about how wireless charging is still an early technology and trying to standardize isn't needed at the moment with laws being able to be updated in the future for different plug types.

[porina]

13 minutes ago, darknessblade said:

That does indeed matter, try using a NON-MFI charger/cable, and you will see the warning.

I see the cable as nothing more than a connection. What matters is the brick on the other end. I ask again, is there a way for them to detect that? 

 

I hope USB-C will be the end of MFi cables at least, given USB-C is its own standard. That doesn't rule out Apple specific features in connected devices though.

[8tg]

I feel this thread is everyone passing around a single brain cell to borrow and then pretending to say something profound.

[tikker]

9 minutes ago, OhYou_ said:

wow another case of the EU ruining technological progression.
Wireless only phones will happen and I guess they just wont be sold there then LOL

They encourage progression in the wireless charging department:

Quote

Encouraging technological innovation

As wireless charging becomes more prevalent, the European Commission will have to harmonise interoperability requirements by the end of 2024, to avoid having a negative impact on consumers and the environment. This will also get rid of the so-called technological “lock-in” effect, whereby a consumer becomes dependent on a single manufacturer.

I don't want a wireless-only phone. I'll happily stick to using my phone that can charge while moving around and doing other things instead of laying on a charging pad.

[pas008]

couldnt the original topic been just updated?

[starsmine]

what a farcical decision

[Holmes108]

23 minutes ago, OhYou_ said:

if it will be illegal than are other wireless charge only devices, such as almost ALL smartwatches, all wireless earpods, also illegal now?

I don't have a source, but I was pretty sure I saw in discussions when this was first announced, that it just applied to device with ports. I was under the impression wireless only would be acceptable. 

 

Edit: Just saw some later posts here making this point less clear.

[Holmes108]

The other issue with a law like this (which I haven't read, admittedly, so maybe it's addressed somewhere?) is that USB C is just a port. The underlying USB technology can be different things. We're already seeing in various USB and HDMI specs that there's still a matter of "Which Kind?". When your device has different requirements regarding data, power, etc it kinda makes a law like this less useful in my mind than it would have been back in the day when USB was simply USB.

 

Edit: and I do realize that you'll still have partial compatibility among the majority of devices (better to slow charge than no charge), but that gulf will probably only widen as time goes on. And I have no confidence in the ability for a law like this to be particularly 'fluid', seeing as it is the government we're talking about.

[tikker]

8 minutes ago, Holmes108 said:

The other issue with a law like this (which I haven't read, admittedly, so maybe it's addressed somewhere?) is that USB C is just a port. The underlying USB technology can be different things. We're already seeing in various USB and HDMI specs that there's still a matter of "Which Kind?". When your device has different requirements regarding data, power, etc it kinda makes a law like this less useful in my mind than it would have been back in the day when USB was simply USB.

When your device has requirements regarding power, data or else you put that on the box so the user can make an informed decision. Similarly, chargers (which is what the mandate is about) can simply advertise their wattage, cables simply advertise their speed rating etc. The phone should simply advertise along the lines of "supports up to 60 W charging" and then the user can pick a 60 W charger and call it a day.

[Senzelian]

1 hour ago, darknessblade said:

mice

HAH F*CK YOU LOGITECH
(Yes I had fun with this one)

 

Quote

All devices that support fast charging will now have the same charging speed, allowing users to charge their devices at the same speed with any compatible charger.

I wonder what that means tho. 

 

Quote

As wireless charging becomes more prevalent, the European Commission will have to harmonise interoperability requirements by the end of 2024, to avoid having a negative impact on consumers and the environment. This will also get rid of the so-called technological “lock-in” effect, whereby a consumer becomes dependent on a single manufacturer.

Also this? Is that the end for Logitech Powerplay?

 

Quote

Dedicated labels will inform consumers about the charging characteristics of new devices, making it easier for them to see whether their existing chargers are compatible. Buyers will also be able to make an informed choice about whether or not to purchase a new charging device with a new product.

Nice! This was desperately needed for phones that do not come with chargers such as Apple, Samsung and Google devices.

 

 

 

[mike_seps]

38 minutes ago, tikker said:

Quote

In order to achieve the ultimate goal of a common charger and as preconditions for impactful
and meaningful unbundling, the three supporting studies, which were conducted found that
radio equipment shall integrate: a harmonised charging interface at the radio equipment end
(the charging receptacle in the case of radio equipment charged via wired charging), a
minimum common interoperability of charging through a harmonised charging
communication protocol, and detailed information about charging requirements of the radio
equipment.

That would go against the harmonisation, although the way it is written does allow for the other interpretation...

I'm not even remotely close to being a lawyer and I can se that I don't have to include USB-C if I want to go wireless only. Apple would (has already?) 100% put thought into not conforming to USB-C standards because they're Apple. If they can be different (difficult) then they will.  I can see them closing the port, creating a new magsafe connection where the old charge port would be, just so they don't have to conform. It's the most Apple thing they can do

[tikker]

3 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

I wonder what that means tho. 

I'm guessing no longer having to guess what "fast" charging refers to in terms of the manufacturer-specific protocols. Now it'll just be USB-PD.

[Senzelian]

1 minute ago, tikker said:

I'm guessing no longer having to guess what "fast" charging refers to in terms of the manufacturer-specific protocols. Now it'll just be USB-PD.

Yeah that makes sense. I hope they're not limiting it to a certain speed.

[tikker]

6 minutes ago, mike_seps said:

I'm not even remotely close to being a lawyer and I can se that I don't have to include USB-C if I want to go wireless only. Apple would (has already?) 100% put thought into not conforming to USB-C standards because they're Apple. If they can be different (difficult) then they will.  I can see them closing the port, creating a new magsafe connection where the old charge port would be, just so they don't have to conform. It's the most Apple thing they can do

If they'd put a physical MagSafe connector on there to which a MagSafe charger would connect, then I'd say they would be producing a device that can be charged via wired charging and thus obligated to include a USB-C port on there. Plus, realistically, how many people would want a purely wireless phone? I think it's neat, but a wire is still king for me when it comes to charging speed (wireless is quite slow) and versatility when away from a controlled environment like home or desk.

[Gamer Schnitzel]

1 hour ago, OhYou_ said:

i REALLY hope apple just goes full magsafe and removes the charge port and sim card slot all together for EU models if not world wide.
I'm all for epic trolling

They were already going to do that. You think this is NEWS ??????????? THIS WAS ANNOUNCED IN 2021 MAN AND ALL THIS ALREADY HAPPENED DUDE

apple already said they were gonna remove the port but then eu amde a NEW FUCKING LAW that said that every device from then on has to have a port and nothing can be portless

it was LITERALLY posted on this forum last year already

[mike_seps]

7 minutes ago, tikker said:

If they'd put a physical MagSafe connector on there to which a MagSafe charger would connect, then I'd say they would be producing a device that can be charged via wired charging and thus obligated to include a USB-C port on there. Plus, realistically, how many people would want a purely wireless phone? I think it's neat, but a wire is still king for me when it comes to charging speed (wireless is quite slow) and versatility when away from a controlled environment like home or desk.

I fully agree that anyone that says they want a full wireless is lying lol. Magsafe would be a surface mount, without a port, so there would be no need to go to USB-C

[Kisai]

26 minutes ago, 8tg said:

I feel this thread is everyone passing around a single brain cell to borrow and then pretending to say something profound.

We've literately had this discussion on-going since april:

Nothing new other than it being official now.

 

To summarize the arguments:

1) It will not stifle innovation, that is a complaint made by people who are invested in proprietary connectors and accessories. Get over it, you backed the wrong horse. HDDVD and Betamax say hi. Standards evolve over time, but usually they just get replaced when the old standard does not meet the requirements they were originally designed to meet. VHS, DVD and Blueray were adopted as the physical media format because people bought that equipment and manufactures didn't want to produce two types of media.

2) ewaste - This stuff obsoletes itself, let me ask how many people are still using a wireless controller or headphones/headset longer than they used a previous wired one. My wired Xbox 360 controller lasted from 2006 until only a few months ago. I've replaced wired earbud headsets when they've accidently gone through the wash or have been dropped too many times. The batteries in a lot of wireless stuff doesn't last more than 2 years when you can't replace it with an off-the-shelf part. If you want to complain about ewaste, never buy a device that is only operated wirelessly.

 

Apple's digging their heels on the iphone USB-C for no other reason than it it's their flagship product and they don't want to be left holding warehouses of expensive lighting-accessories that were manufactured years ago, when suddenly all this cheaper USB-C accessories become usable with it.  As people doing tear-downs of the iphone 14 noted, it looks identical to the previous model. Likely because it's design was reused and was developed more than two years ago, before these rules looked like they were coming. This is why you saw the iPad get the USB-C port first. The iPad though? Likely already had pressure to use USB-C because it was closer to a laptop already than the iphone. 

 

At any rate, what I hope comes after this is a "magsafe" usb-C connector standard. Nowhere is it written that a laptop must "only" use a USB-C connector, just that it must be possible to charge the device via USB-C and most laptops made since 2016 have been able to do this, though high-power laptops (anything with a dedicated GPU) can't actually be powered by a single USB-C port and simultaneously use the dGPU. High-power laptops are still best served with a massive power brick because they are really just a nerfed desktop fit into a laptop chassis. So imagine a USB-C connector that is magnetically held so that it doesn't break the port on the phone/laptop when someone trips over the cable.

 

 

[darknessblade]

1 hour ago, porina said:

I see the cable as nothing more than a connection. What matters is the brick on the other end. I ask again, is there a way for them to detect that? 

 

I hope USB-C will be the end of MFi cables at least, given USB-C is its own standard. That doesn't rule out Apple specific features in connected devices though.

Yes there is a way for them to detect it, as there is a small chip inside the cable, that says "HEY I am a real MFI cable" to the chip on the phone, when you plug it in. so it knows that its a official cable.

 

HP and DELL pull this crap as well on their 20-pin USB3.0 headers [in all their cases], so you cannot add your own usb header cable, in case the HP/DELL one is defective.

 

The PC still boots fine though, but you get a annoying USB-error at startup, even though your repaired cable works without ANY issues.

[ewitte]

What if you use too much power to charge over USB-C?  That wouldn't be the case for phones but definitely could be for laptops.

[porina]

9 minutes ago, darknessblade said:

Yes there is a way for them to detect it, as there is a small chip inside the cable, that says "HEY I am a real MFI cable" to the chip on the phone, when you plug it in. so it knows that its a official cable.

You missed the point again. The question was can they detect if what the cable is connected to is Apple approved or not? The cable matters far less.

[tikker]

51 minutes ago, mike_seps said:

I fully agree that anyone that says they want a full wireless is lying lol. Magsafe would be a surface mount, without a port, so there would be no need to go to USB-C

I don't think surface mount will matter when they specifyc "the charging receptacle in the case of radio equipment charged via wired charging". The surface mount thing I would count as receptacle, there's a wire involved ergo wired charging.

23 minutes ago, ewitte said:

What if you use too much power to charge over USB-C?  That wouldn't be the case for phones but definitely could be for laptops.

Then either you or the manufacturer have made an error and used or recommended a charger and cable unsuitable for the job.

[wanderingfool2]

1 hour ago, AluminiumTech said:

Exactly where it is today because lightning is an inferior protocol not just in speed but also power delivery.

 

It uses USB 2.0 for data but lightning can't handle more than 29W of power.

Honestly though, the design of the lightning connector beats out USB-C in regards to practicality though.

 

Data rates aside, the fact that lightning cables are designed to break before the phone connector...if you get twigs/dirt etc stuck inside a lightning connector it's by far easier to clear out than USB-C.  Super fast charging only really matters if you are in a need for a charge quickly, I think there have been only a few scenarios where I have run across that (and in those cases as well, what are the changes you have the fast charger with you).  Full 100% charge the numbers sort of equalize over time...better for the battery anyways with a slower charge rate.

 

I dislike Apple, but honestly I sort of wish the USB-C went more of the Apple connector type of approach than USB-C....I've seen lots of lightning cables that need replacing, more so than USB-C cables...but it's a lot more rare to have the connector being plugged in the iPhone (or rather it's so much easier to clean)...USB-C if you get something stuck in the cable without realizing you can have users who break the internal plastic on the USB-C...and at that point there isn't a cheap repair.

 

3 hours ago, darknessblade said:

This is nothing but good news, 1 charger for them all. No need to find a adapter just because your DC5.5-2.1mm charger does not work with your new laptop that uses DC5.5-2.5mm. With USB-C, there is no need for these issues anymore.

USB-C isn't as universal as people make it out to be.

[darknessblade]

25 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Honestly though, the design of the lightning connector beats out USB-C in regards to practicality though.

 

Data rates aside, the fact that lightning cables are designed to break before the phone connector...if you get twigs/dirt etc stuck inside a lightning connector it's by far easier to clear out than USB-C.  Super fast charging only really matters if you are in a need for a charge quickly, I think there have been only a few scenarios where I have run across that (and in those cases as well, what are the changes you have the fast charger with you).  Full 100% charge the numbers sort of equalize over time...better for the battery anyways with a slower charge rate.

 

I dislike Apple, but honestly I sort of wish the USB-C went more of the Apple connector type of approach than USB-C....I've seen lots of lightning cables that need replacing, more so than USB-C cables...but it's a lot more rare to have the connector being plugged in the iPhone (or rather it's so much easier to clean)...USB-C if you get something stuck in the cable without realizing you can have users who break the internal plastic on the USB-C...and at that point there isn't a cheap repair.

 

USB-C isn't as universal as people make it out to be.

From what I can find that looks to be more of a issue with the pump, than with the charger or cable itself. which Louiss makes quite clear in his follow-up video.

 

[wanderingfool2]

10 minutes ago, darknessblade said:

From what I can find that looks to be more of a issue with the pump, than with the charger or cable itself. which Louiss makes quite clear in his follow-up video.

 

It brings back to the issue though that using a standard doesn't mean that it's really all that universal if companies are not going to comply by the standard. 

 

Like there are 3 chargers, and 3 devices there with 3 different results.

 

1 charger powered it all,

1 charger powered just the phone and battery bank,

1 charger powered just the phone