ada lovelace NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 Benchmark Leak Shows A 65% Gain Over RTX 3090 Ti (Updated)

[Dracarris]

31 minutes ago, ewitte said:

The 4090 already gets 4k fps over my max refresh rate quite often based off the numbers that have been showed.  I have my cap set to 118.

Oh believe me given the "right" game, high enough detail settings and RT we can solve that "problem" very quickly

[ravenshrike]

Which means in 2-3 generations you'll actually need to buy a RT card for games. AMD has until then to kick out a decent RT solution, which given that RX 7000 is going to be MCM on the high end is entirely possible. They might go full ASIC chiplet(s) for RT with the other chiplets being normal graphics processing units.

[Shzzit]

9 hours ago, IPD said:

Wasn't asking for comparison to midrange.  Comparing between tiers isn't apples to apples.  Comparing top-end vs. top-end is.  That's why I asked.

 

Even if power consumption is the same though, You're asking for a 45% or more (minimum) premium for maybe a 65% increase (maximum) in performance.

If you do the math of the 4090 MSRP and 4k performance, it comes out to being the BEST performance per dollar EVER MADE.   

 

 

 

[pas008]

1 hour ago, Shzzit said:

If you do the math of the 4090 MSRP and 4k performance, it comes out to being the BEST performance per dollar EVER MADE.   

 

 

 

Show your math

So you can make many of these negative Nancys eat their mouse pads

 

[leadeater]

58 minutes ago, pas008 said:

eat their mouse pads

How do you recommend they are eaten? Roasted? Diced and in a salad? 

 

RTX 40 series makes the RTX 20 series look even worse than the RTX 30 series did, it's just that it was extremely difficult to buy RTX 30 series or if you could at reasonable prices. I really hope this generation is a complete about-turn and is just a  "plain old boring product release", hoping for a non-even seems weird haha.

[IPD]

9 hours ago, Shzzit said:

If you do the math of the 4090 MSRP and 4k performance, it comes out to being the BEST performance per dollar EVER MADE.

Irrelevant.  That's literally true with every new generation--or has been.  The x-factor being keeping cards in the same price points.

 

The 4090 is so astronomically more expensive than the 3090ti that it begs the questions I asked.

[starsmine]

29 minutes ago, IPD said:

The 4090 is so astronomically more expensive than the 3090ti that it begs the questions I asked.

since when is 1600 > 2000?

the fact that they started liquidating 3090s right before lovelace should be recognized its just that, liquidation. 
That liquidation is a factor EVERY single product release. just more so with ampere.
Yall saw all of am4 processors got like a 100 doller price cut when zen 4 dropped. except for the 5800x3d.
people fire sold their turing when ampere was dropped.

[LAwLz]

46 minutes ago, starsmine said:

since when is 1600 > 2000?

the fact that they started liquidating 3090s right before lovelace should be recognized its just that, liquidation. 

Exactly.

 

The average selling price of the RTX 3090 Ti looks like this:

 

 

The previous generation models dropping dramatically in price shortly before the next generation gets released is not a weird phenomenon. It happens pretty much all the time.

The 3090 Ti was in practice a 2000 dollar graphics card. If we want to talk about generational improvements then we should look at the 3090 Ti for what it was, a 2000 dollar graphics card.

 

Buying the previous generation cards has always been a good thing to do if you want a good price to performance ratio. Likewise, not buying these super high end cards is also a good idea if you care about price to performance.

Complaining about the price to performance ratio of a halo product that barely anyone should buy is silly. It's like complaining about the miles per gallon of a sports car. People who buy sports cars doesn't buy them for that, and neither should anyone buy the RTX 4090 because of its price to performance ratio.  Buy it if you got more money than sense and want to brag. That's about it.

[starsmine]

I do want to add when lovelace finally does go down the product line.
Products like the 3050 and 3060 NEVER WERE MANUFACTURABLE at msrp. 
well the 3060 was... for like a month. But not since then, not even today. 

So comparing a eventual 4060 to a 330 USD 3060 would be a bad comparison, as the 330 dollar msrp wasnt real. 

or a 4050 to a 250 3050. there has never even been a month where the 3050 could be manufactured that cheap. Not even the launch window like the 3060.
Those were literally fake MSRPs AIBs could never hit. 

AMD 6500 at least could be manufactured at its MSRP, no AMD partner is losing money at MSRP.

[Blademaster91]

1 hour ago, starsmine said:

I do want to add when lovelace finally does go down the product line.
Products like the 3050 and 3060 NEVER WERE MANUFACTURABLE at msrp. 
well the 3060 was... for like a month. But not since then, not even today. 

So comparing a eventual 4060 to a 330 USD 3060 would be a bad comparison, as the 330 dollar msrp wasnt real. 

or a 4050 to a 250 3050. there has never even been a month where the 3050 could be manufactured that cheap. Not even the launch window like the 3060.
Those were literally fake MSRPs AIBs could never hit. 

AMD 6500 at least could be manufactured at its MSRP, no AMD partner is losing money at MSRP.

All of the RTX 3000 series cards went up over their launch MSRP, although the MSRP's don't really matter, considering after hearing about EVGA no longer making GPU's, Nvidia's margin is like 50% or possibly even higher. I doubt Nvidia is losing any money with the RTX 40 series, the AIB's are the ones that take the hit when Nvidia doesn't seem to care about power consumption, or making a midrange card.

[starsmine]

8 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

All of the RTX 3000 series cards went up over their launch MSRP, although the MSRP's don't really matter, considering after hearing about EVGA no longer making GPU's, Nvidia's margin is like 50% or possibly even higher. I doubt Nvidia is losing any money with the RTX 40 series, the AIB's are the ones that take the hit when Nvidia doesn't seem to care about power consumption, or making a midrange card.

they all went over launch MSRP because of demand, not because they could not manufacture them for a profit AT msrp.
3050 and 3060 are different. Demand had zero effect on them going over MSRP, they could NOT be built that cheap. 

I didnt suggest nvida would lose money with the 40 series, thats why they are priced the way they are. Im saying a caveat for my argument of comparing 4090 to 3090 msrp and 4080 to 3080 msrp WILL NOT APPLY down at the bottom of the stack because the msrp for the 3060 and 3050 are fake, unhittable back then, and unhittable today. Most of the time MSRP accounts for BOM, overhead, support and profit.
guess what MSRP for the 3060 and 3050 didnt account for. Profit. they are FALSE msrp. the only way for an AIB to sell a card at MSRP is for NVIDIA to pay the AIB. 

There is a reason the 3070 and up are selling new below MSRP, but the 3060 and 3050 are still selling for more then MSRP. its because AIBs would lose money on them selling any cheaper and they dont have to liquidate yet. 
 

[leadeater]

27 minutes ago, starsmine said:

they all went over launch MSRP because of demand, not because they could not manufacture them for a profit AT msrp.

Yes they could not be made at MSRP, due to supply parts required cost went up. MSRP as advertise at product release is based on parts supply cost then not present. Unless you are saying AIBs are lying they have gone on official record and said they have had to sell GPUs at a loss.

 

This applies to the higher end cards, not just the 3050 and 3060.

 

 

MSRP is not a static thing it actually changes.

[starsmine]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Yes they could not be made at MSRP, due to supply parts required cost went up. MSRP as advertise at product release is based on parts supply cost then not present. Unless you are saying AIBs are lying they have gone on official record and said they have had to sell GPUs at a loss.

 

This applies to the higher end cards, not just the 3050 and 3060.

 

 

MSRP is not a static thing it actually changes.

3050 MSRP was not based off supply costs at launch, 3060 was yes (kinda), not 3050. there has never been any point in the life of the 3050 an AIB could manufacture it at 250USD, let alone the overhead of shipping and support. 
3060 had a few months of single digit margins at manufacturing before ram prices spiked. and it still has not recovered to the price at the launch. Ram prices had to drop for that launch MSRP to actually be profitable.

3090 ti msrp is 2000 usd, they are selling it at 1400 usd at a loss, they can sell at 2000 for a profit. but no one would buy it at that price in this market. due to nvidia crashing the price. they are liquidating.

3090 msrp is 1500 USD, they are selling at 1000 at a loss, because they have to liquidate. at 1500 usd, they could profit.
 
Those cards on that graph, AIBs could make a profit at MSRP. 
those MSRPs are real, and outside of the demand spike, in a normal market, they would have been mostly static and followed a normal trend.
That was never, not for a single day, the case with the 3050. That MSRP has never once been a target that could be hit for the AIBs. And launching the 3060 in a pandemic with margins like that for the AIBs was impossible to sustain. 

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, starsmine said:

Those cards on that graph, AIBs could make a profit at MSRP. 

To repeat MSRP is not static it changes. The current today MSRP for the RTX 3090 and RTX 3090 Ti is not what you think it is.

 

Selling an RTX 3090 Ti at $1,999 would be selling it above MSRP.

[starsmine]

Just now, leadeater said:

To repeat MSRP is not static it changes. The current today MSRP for the RTX 3090 and RTX 3090 Ti is not what you think it is.

MSRP =/= market price and never has. MSRP is just a suggestion.

MSRP can change when Nvidia changes it. Im not saying its static. But even at the MSRPs Nvidia has changed them to
1500 usd for the 3090ti

1300 usd for the 3090

1100 usd for the 3080ti

800 usd for the 3080 12G

you can see, those still are WAY ABOVE what AIBs can liquidate their stock at because NVIDIA is crashing the new market with their founders. 

AMD changed the MSRP of their cards on september 22nd. Across their entire stack. 
Nvidia has changed MSRPs before, but they have not at the bottom of the stack, becaues they cant.
They are still advertising that 330 USD for the 3060. we saw that slide in the lovelace press release.

Also we are way off topic, I was just trying to say my argument for the 4090v3090 will not work down the stack as future cards release. 

[pas008]

i dont know why you guys are even arguing prices period

supply demand and market drives them also

 

tiers issue is the lower 3080 yeah i agree with everyone on this

pay attention but isnt that far off in performance

but why argue and complain like negative nancys

900 series had 6 tiers

1k series had 11 ish tiers

2k series 7 tiers

3k series 11

4k series might only have like 6-7 considering people keeping older cards and they need to fill the gaps in performance

 

gpus have evolved to do more than game

[Blademaster91]

1 hour ago, starsmine said:

they all went over launch MSRP because of demand, not because they could not manufacture them for a profit AT msrp.
3050 and 3060 are different. Demand had zero effect on them going over MSRP, they could NOT be built that cheap. 

I didnt suggest nvida would lose money with the 40 series, thats why they are priced the way they are. Im saying a caveat for my argument of comparing 4090 to 3090 msrp and 4080 to 3080 msrp WILL NOT APPLY down at the bottom of the stack because the msrp for the 3060 and 3050 are fake, unhittable back then, and unhittable today. Most of the time MSRP accounts for BOM, overhead, support and profit.
guess what MSRP for the 3060 and 3050 didnt account for. Profit. they are FALSE msrp. the only way for an AIB to sell a card at MSRP is for NVIDIA to pay the AIB. 

There is a reason the 3070 and up are selling new below MSRP, but the 3060 and 3050 are still selling for more then MSRP. its because AIBs would lose money on them selling any cheaper and they dont have to liquidate yet. 
 

Prices went up because of mining demand, and supply, now that supply is getting better, prices should be closer to 30 series MSRP, especially at the lower end with smaller dies and less VRAM.

And there isn't any comparison with the 3080 to the 4080, as the 4080 12GB isn't a real x80 card anyway, and the 4080 12GB is simply overpriced because people bought 3080's for over $1000, of course Nvidia wants that level of margin on a cut down card that should be a 4070.

The lower end cards haven't gotten price cuts as Nvidia hasn't decreased prices of their own founders cards, Nvidia could decrease prices if they wanted to.

And the 4090 MSRP is still a price increase if you compare it to the current MSRP of the 3090Ti, the price only looks cheap because the rest of the 40 series product stack got price hikes. Not that the FE MSRP really matters though, if Nvidia makes the 40 series FE cards in very low supply like they did with the 30 series, most of the AIB cards will be more expensive.

4 minutes ago, pas008 said:

i dont know why you guys are even arguing prices period

supply demand and market drives them also

 

tiers issue is the lower 3080 yeah i agree with everyone on this

pay attention but isnt that far off in performance

but why argue and complain like negative nancys

900 series had 6 tiers

1k series had 11 ish tiers

2k series 7 tiers

3k series 11

4k series might only have like 6-7 considering people keeping older cards and they need to fill the gaps in performance

I think price is an important point, except for people that buy at launch they probably don't care.

Also the market is being driven towards higher GPU prices, with less tiers to choose from as Nvidia keeps moving cards up a stack like if you want the x80 card you'll have to spend $1200, the x80 tier used to be $700, and if you want the best card a 4090 is over 40% more than a 3090Ti.  I wouldn't expect the 40 series to have any midrange cards, as Nvidia wants to clear out the 30 series cards, and there hasn't been a price to performance card since the 1060 6GB.

[pas008]

49 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

 and if you want the best card a 4090 is over 40% more than a 3090Ti.

didn't the 3090 release at 1500

and 4090 is releasing at 1600???

[LAwLz]

27 minutes ago, pas008 said:

didn't the 3090 release at 1500

and 4090 is releasing at 1600???

The 3090 Ti was 2000 USD MSRP and street price.

In the last month or so it has gone down quite dramatically.

[HenrySalayne]

14 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

The 3090 Ti was 2000 USD MSRP and street price.

When the 3090 TI released it was on par if not even lower priced than the 3090 and some 3080 TIs at the time (street price).

Now it's even below the adjusted MSRP of $1500.

This price includes VAT and corresponds to $1100 USD (official Nvidia store).

 

This offer even comes down to $996 USD. They are basically handing 3090 TIs out for free right now.

 

We saw pretty much the same thing with the launch of the 30 series. "Old stock" 20 series cards were dirt cheap while the 30 series completely blew up 10 min after launch with most models still not recovering their launch MSRP. Maybe in 4 month the 3090 TI for $1000 was the deal of our lives, but I would not gamble on it.

 

 

[pas008]

20 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

 Maybe in 4 month the 3090 TI for $1000 was the deal of our lives, but I would not gamble on it.

 

 

well if it the rtx 4080 12gb and 3090ti are back and forth on performance it might very well be

 

another variable for pricing, most cards do get set in price for their performance also

[ewitte]

19 hours ago, starsmine said:

MSRP =/= market price and never has. MSRP is just a suggestion.

MSRP can change when Nvidia changes it. Im not saying its static. But even at the MSRPs Nvidia has changed them to
1500 usd for the 3090ti

1300 usd for the 3090

1100 usd for the 3080ti

800 usd for the 3080 12G
 

 

Not MSRP but Nvidia and a few AIBs are selling at 1099 now for the 3090ti.  BB and MC have them in stock.

[ewitte]

17 hours ago, pas008 said:

well if it the rtx 4080 12gb and 3090ti are back and forth on performance it might very well be

 

another variable for pricing, most cards do get set in price for their performance also

900 vs 1099 at the same performance its worth that for the vram alone.

[pas008]

1 hour ago, ewitte said:

900 vs 1099 at the same performance its worth that for the vram alone.

where are you getting those prices

[Rym]

Isn't it quite unfair and biased to compare an upcoming product's release MSRP with the MSRP of a 2 year old product?

 

Looks pretty convenient to me.

 

If I'm to compare fairly, I'm comparing the release MSRP of the previous flagship at the time of it's release with the MSRP of the new flagship at the time of it's release.

 

To that end I would like to compare such MSRP as it is in the EU. That is 2000€ vs 2000€, I would additionally like to add to this that currently an RTX 3090 Ti tuf goes for 1417€, this is not open for debate. This is the price in my country, since I cannot purchase from other countries, other prices become irrelevant.

 

At an MSRP of equal pricing, 2000€ vs 2000€, the 4090 provides between 50 to 70% greater raster performance, between 200 to 400% greater Ray Tracing performance, and up to 500% greater overall performance when DLSS 3 is used.

 

Now, these examples are as follows:

 

50 to 70% greater raster taken from Nvidia's charts on the reveal day.

200 to 400% greater Ray Tracing performance taken from Nvidia's charts on the reveal day.

Up to 500% greater overall performance when DLSS 3 is used taken from Nvidia's charts on the reveal day plus Digital Foundry's own observations and benchmarks.

 

Those are the uplifts Nvidia promised for the same price, those uplifts also come at the same wattage, 450W.

 

This is a monstrous uplift in performance at the same price.

 

Now we can compare it further, against the current 3090 ti value of 1417€ vs 2000€.  The 4090 is approximately 41.144% more expensive, while providing between 50-70% greater raster performance, between 2 to 4 times greater Ray Tracing performance, and up to 500% greater overall performance when DLSS 3 is used.

 

That's not a deal? I have a different idea for you.

 

What if 4090 was initially considered to be a 2500$ GPU, with the 4080 16G being much weaker, but being a 749$ GPU? 

 

Nevertheless, Nvidia's strategy is crystal clear, yet people barely talk about it.

 

The reason the 4090 is at 2000€ is so that enthusiasts and professionals will use it, the reason the 4080 is 1500€ and the 4070 is 1100€ is because they're not meant to be bought, they're intended to encourage people to buy the 3000 series GPUs which are in an oversupply and Nvidia will support two generations of GPUs for about one year.

 

Thank you, and goodbye.