Intel Innovation 2022 - Raptor Lake Announced, on shelves October 20

[leadeater]

13 minutes ago, porina said:

The thing is the wafer is labelled Raptor Lake-S, not Sapphire Rapids-S if it were directly based on that. Also previous HEDT were based off -E or -EP variations.

I wouldn't take much stock of the carrier label the wafer is in (I doubt the actual wafer itself is labelled with this), for all we know the wrong wafer was placed in to it and that's how we got to see it lol.

 

Quote

discovered a label on the carrier and realized that this was a wafer of unreleased CPU silicon. 

 

Xeon is a little more complicated than that btw, Xeon is or was typically 3 dies: LCC, MCC and HCC. HEDT usually was based on the LCC die.

 

Personally I'd rather go back to this, Intel 7000 series HEDT onwards with their own socket and chipset was frankly annoying and stupid and as a HEDT owner I hated this change. It also went nowhere and ended up killing HEDT as it would cost Intel too much to re-tool back to the way they did it before and still get trounced by Threadripper anyway. Maybe Intel has regained some sense and is making HEDT actually high end again.

[Shzzit]

Omg, Asus hero mb for new intel cpu is 650 bucks,  what the fuck? 
 

850 for ryzen hero board.

 

WHAT the he’ll ASUS?
 

that’s the one I wanted but that’s more then the damn cpu.  Crazy.

 

Whats a good board with all the bells and whistles for cheaper lol? 

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, Shzzit said:

Whats a good board with all the bells and whistles for cheaper lol? 

Personally I go with the Asus Black Edition boards if they have them, not every generation does...... oh you wanted cheaper sorry my bad. I think cheap high end motherboards is a pipe dream now days.

 

tbh I don't really know, I've not looked too much at this since I haven't been interested in buy a new platform for a long time. That said I was going to check out EVGA motherboards.

[Shzzit]

Just now, leadeater said:

Personally I go with the Asus Black Edition boards if they have them, no every generation does...... ho you wanted cheaper sorry my bad.

 

tbh I don't really know, I've not looked too much at this since I haven't been interested in buy a new platform for a long time. That said I was going to check out EVGA motherboards.

Ya last time I got a mb it was under 200 lol.  These prices are getting crazy. 

[porina]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I wouldn't take much stock of the carrier label the wafer is in (I doubt the actual wafer itself is labelled with this), for all we know the wrong wafer was placed in to it and that's how we got to see it lol.

34 visible cores line up with the label. What else could it be? What we've seen so far of Sapphire Rapids is that it is up to 4 tiles of 15 cores, so that is totally different. Ice Lake had dies at 28C and 40C.

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, porina said:

34 visible cores line up with the label. What else could it be? What we've seen so far of Sapphire Rapids is that it is up to 4 tiles of 15 cores, so that is totally different. Ice Lake had dies at 28C and 40C.

Read the article again, the wafer is not labelled this only the plastic carrier. Like I said you place the wrong wafer in there and well, it could be literally anything.

 

Edit:

Raptor Lake-X would be the more likely actual naming for this.

[leadeater]

@porina  @Shzzit

So my assessment of the die is that this is the yet to be announced Raptor Lake-S CPUs with the 6GHz boost and likely has 10 P cores and 24 E cores. I'm still trying to figure out the connectivity of the cores, if actually still Ring Bus or it's gone Mesh.

 

 

[porina]

21 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Read the article again, the wafer is not labelled this only the plastic carrier. Like I said you place the wrong wafer in there and well, it could be literally anything.

That isn't the point. There is a 34C chip wafer seen and we don't know what it is. That is the real question. I don't think it matters much if the sticker was physically on the carrier or wafer directly, although I'd give there is less chance of a wrong label if it were on the wafer than carrier.

 

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

So my assessment of the die is that this is the yet to be announced Raptor Lake-S CPUs with the 6GHz boost and likely has 10 P cores and 24 E cores. I'm still trying to figure out the connectivity of the cores, if actually still Ring Bus or it's gone Mesh.

That could explain the label but not the wafer. The wafer cores look to be the same, not a mix of P+E. This could go back to your assertion the wrong wafer is in there, but I'm still wondering what a 34 same core chip could be.

[leadeater]

7 minutes ago, porina said:

That could explain the label but not the wafer. The wafer cores look to be the same, not a mix of P+E. This could go back to your assertion the wrong wafer is in there, but I'm still wondering what a 34 same core chip could be.

Be very careful at how something "looks", just because there is blobs there doesn't mean they are P cores. Most die images have been enhanced and don't actually look like the real thing. This I would say is a raw image.

 

The central blobs could be Ring Bus and LCC, but the number of them doesn't quite line up with that.

 

Anyway I'd be VERY cautious in assuming there is 34 P cores there. 

[porina]

8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Anyway I'd be VERY cautious in assuming there is 34 P cores there. 

It is a best guess, and for sure they could be other things, especially with the odd positioning of three on the side. What is fairly safe to say is it is NOT 10P+24E you mentioned. Die size is something more than that.

 

Edit: also I'd give benefit of doubt to Ian Cutress and Paul Alcorn who were there and spotted this in the first place. Sure, they could be wrong, but they know what they're looking for.

[leadeater]

19 minutes ago, porina said:

It is a best guess, and for sure they could be other things, especially with the odd positioning of three on the side. What is fairly safe to say is it is NOT 10P+24E you mentioned. Die size is something more than that.

Change to Mesh would explain both quite easily, well the odd layout much more. Mesh uses more die area and the cores get positioned in that style when using Mesh. Have a look at a Cascade Lake or Ice Lake server die for an example. Ring Bus doesn't scale well past 10 stops so any increases above the current 12 on Raptor Lake-S (13900K) might actually be an issue.

 

That said I don't see Intel mixing Ring and Mesh in the same platform either so I'd put this out there as quite unlikely to share the same motherboards so it doesn't make much sense to be calling it Raptor Lake-S instead of Raptor Lake-X if this is the case.

 

In any case if this is almost all P cores then it's going to be a Mesh architecture die for sure, Intel would simply never do a Ring Bugs that large.

 

Quite honestly the more I look at it the more I'm convinced it's a Sapphire Rapids die, only reason that wasn't my first guess is that would be a massive blunder and it's not quite right for that either.

[porina]

11 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Quite honestly the more I look at it the more I'm convinced it's a Sapphire Rapids die, only reason that wasn't my first guess is that would be a massive blunder and it's not quite right for that either.

What do we know about Sapphire Rapids? I thought it was going tiled, not large monolithic? 34C part could serve two tile equivalent, and maybe the 4 tile parts are the full fat version? I'm really not that familiar with the server stack.

[05032-Mendicant-Bias]

I'll likely buy the 13700F/DDR5 when it comes out in january. I have been planning this build for a while

[leadeater]

7 minutes ago, porina said:

What do we know about Sapphire Rapids? I thought it was going tiled, not large monolithic?

Yes tiled, just thinking that these might be the tiles but well also don't think so. The tiles are big

 

https://videocardz.com/newz/intels-unreleased-xeon-sapphire-rapids-cpu-has-been-delidded-by-der8auer

 

I'm just more confused at why Intel would make a 34 P-Core die given it's not their current strategy. Maybe there is more going on since Raptor Lake wasn't even supposed to exist and this is a similar hedging bets by Intel like with Meteor Lake but for Sapphire Rapids, a new safety net just in case.

[Shzzit]

AMAZING 

 

The Intel Core i9-13900KS 6 GHz Raptor Lake CPU scores 982.5 points in single-core and 18453.4 points in the multi-threaded performance test. Compared to the Core i9-12900KS, that's a 19% boost in single-threaded performance. It also posts 9.5% higher performance than the 13900K, 25% higher performance than the Ryzen 9 7950X, and 52% higher performance than the Ryzen 9 5950X.

In multi-threaded tests, the CPU is up to 55% faster than the Core i9-12900KS, 9% faster than the i9-13900K, 18% faster than the Ryzen 9 7950X, and 56% faster than the Ryzen 9 5950X.

 

 

25% faster then ryzen 7950x in single and 18% multi , amazing. 

[leadeater]

2 minutes ago, Shzzit said:

25% faster then ryzen 7950x in single and 18% multi , amazing. 

 

Sodium not only makes things taste better it also helps manage expectations and hype

[Shzzit]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

 

Sodium not only makes things taste better it also helps manage expectations and hype

Hahahaha

[KaitouX]

~24400 points on CB R23 MT for the 13600K, if the score is accurate, it's slightly closer to the 7900X(~28600) performance than to the 7700X(~19500) in this test.

[leadeater]

Everyone was confused and surprised lol

[starsmine]

Oh I got reminded by moors law is dead video (yea yea)
RCP pricing is price per 1000 tray, not MSRP
13600k is not 319 dollars
13900k is not 589 dollars

Those prices are for what the retailers pay intel and then the retailers need (well I suppose they dont need to) make a profit off of that. not that the price is THAT much different, retail margins have always been comically small for parts like this. 
But expect more like 330 USD and 630 USD or whatever

[LAwLz]

3 hours ago, starsmine said:

Oh I got reminded by moors law is dead video (yea yea)
RCP pricing is price per 1000 tray, not MSRP
13600k is not 319 dollars
13900k is not 589 dollars

Those prices are for what the retailers pay intel and then the retailers need (well I suppose they dont need to) make a profit off of that. not that the price is THAT much different, retail margins have always been comically small for parts like this. 
But expect more like 330 USD and 630 USD or whatever

Pricing is already out so there is no need to guess what they will cost at retail.

 

[Stahlmann]

On 9/28/2022 at 10:50 AM, Shzzit said:

Omg, Asus hero mb for new intel cpu is 650 bucks,  what the fuck? 
 

850 for ryzen hero board.

 

WHAT the he’ll ASUS?
 

that’s the one I wanted but that’s more then the damn cpu.  Crazy.

 

Whats a good board with all the bells and whistles for cheaper lol? 

You're talking about crazy prices, but you look at the very top end of the motherboard lineup. You're doing it wrong. There are motherboards that cost 20% as much and will deliver the same performance. You probably don't need most of it's overclocking-focused features. Just go for one that has the connectivity you need. And if you need 30 USB ports, buy a dock/dongle/hub.

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

You're talking about crazy prices, but you look at the very top end of the motherboard lineup. You're doing it wrong. There are motherboards that cost 20% as much and will deliver the same performance. You don't need most of it's overclockin-focused features. Just go for one that has the connectivity you need. And if you need 30 USB ports, buy a dock.

Completely agree that it is unnecessary to buy high end motherboards. 

But then again, I think it is unnecessary to upgrade your PC more than maybe once every 5 years, or buying CPUs for 500 dollars, or caring about whether or not you get 200 FPS rather than 150 FPS.

 

 

One thing is for sure though, AM5 motherboards are crazy expensive. Even boards that are fairly low-end feature wise are super expensive. 

Equivalent Intel motherboards seems to be about 50-150 dollars cheaper. At least from what I have seen. 

 

Even if B-series motherboards comes out and are significantly cheaper than X670 motherboards, they will most likely only be able to match Intel on price, not features. 

 

 

Newegg seems to have a good price on the ASRock X670E PG Lightning. But that's still 260 dollars, and everything else seems to be around 300 dollars or more. 

The equivalent Z790 motherboard costs 210 dollars for comparison.

 

 

I recently looked at prices in Sweden and when looking at buying a CPU and motherboard, I can get a 13th gen i7 with a motherboard for the same price as I get the Ryzen 5 with the cheapest motherboard I could find.

I can move up an entire performance tier by going with Intel, and so far it seems like Intel will actually win out in terms of performance even if I stayed in the same performance tier.

 

AMD needs those B-series motherboards because right now it seems like a no-brainer to go with Intel. Or go with an older Ryzen 5000 series CPU.

[Stahlmann]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Completely agree that it is unnecessary to buy high end motherboards. 

But then again, I think it is unnecessary to upgrade your PC more than maybe once every 5 years, or buying CPUs for 500 dollars, or caring about whether or not you get 200 FPS rather than 150 FPS.

I do have a fairly high-end motherboard aswell as far as B550 goes, but i never bought it for it's amazing overclocking capabilities or myriad of USB ports. Pretty much the only reason was the fact it has a temperature sensor header and i can set the BIOS to use that sensor to run all my fans. (water loop) I fully knew i wouldn't get any performance benefit or more overclocking headroom out of it. Sadly many people think a $700 motherboard is needed when you don't want to kneecap your CPU.

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Even if B-series motherboards comes out and are significantly cheaper than X670 motherboards, they will most likely only be able to match Intel on price, not features. 

 

 

Newegg seems to have a good price on the ASRock X670E PG Lightning. But that's still 260 dollars, and everything else seems to be around 300 dollars or more. 

The equivalent Z790 motherboard costs 210 dollars for comparison.

 

 

I recently looked at prices in Sweden and when looking at buying a CPU and motherboard, I can get a 13th gen i7 with a motherboard for the same price as I get the Ryzen 5 with the cheapest motherboard I could find.

I can move up an entire performance tier by going with Intel, and so far it seems like Intel will actually win out in terms of performance even if I stayed in the same performance tier.

 

AMD needs those B-series motherboards because right now it seems like a no-brainer to go with Intel. Or go with an older Ryzen 5000 series CPU.

I agree that the overall entry point of motherboard seems to rise more and more. But to really have a good understanding of a platforms entry point we need to await the more budget options to appear. And i don't mean cheap X670. I mean B650.

 

Tbh i'm not even looking for feature parity. Both Intel's and AMD's budget-tier (B-series) motherboards have everything a "normal user" would need.

 

Just a few examples: Who still uses more than 1 GPU? Who uses more than 1 PCIe expansion card in general? Who needs more than 1 PCIe 4.0 storage device? The list goes on. Most of the X-series features have next to no benefit for a standard gaming-PC.

[porina]

1 hour ago, Stahlmann said:

Who needs more than 1 PCIe 4.0 storage device? 

I'll bite. What caught my eye on this statement wasn't more than one PCIe (presumably NVMe?) storage device, but focusing on 4.0? If a board maker has gone through the effort of putting in multiple M.2 connectors, I think it would be nice to start bringing the standard up to 4.0 support as a baseline in all but the lowest cost systems. Chipset connected is ok, doesn't have to all be CPU connected.