Overclocking and characteristics of the new generation of DDR4 RAM dies?

[Vishera]

So i have been out of the game of RAM overclocking for a while,

I noticed that there is a new generation of RAM dies with 2GB per die.

So i wonder are they any good?,Is there something better than a SAMSUNG B-die or Micron Rev.E?

[Levent]

Samsung B die is the still best overclocking DDR4 dram chip. I havent had much Micron chips in DDR4 but Micron B die I have clocks to 3966mhz from its stock 2133mhz.

[Vishera]

2 minutes ago, Levent said:

Samsung B die is the still best overclocking DDR4 dram chip. I havent had much Micron chips in DDR4 but Micron B die I have clocks to 3966mhz from its stock 2133mhz.

I see,Sounds like Micron Rev.E is better the the Micron B-die.

[Somerandomtechyboi]

11 minutes ago, Vishera said:

I noticed that there is a new generation of RAM dies with 2GB per die

I dont think thats exactly new, i think you mean 16gbit ics (2gb per ic, 8x2 = 16gb), those have been out for awhile now

 

The only really good ic i know of for 16gbit is micron rev b 16gbit as they can run upwards of 5000+ for good bin ones and thats assuming mobo + cpu + cooling + the rams themselves are capable, basically 8gbit rev e but abit better and higher capacity, buildzoid oced these ics in the form of 4000 c18 ballistix max, he has oced them to 5000 c18 in this vid. Unsure of any other decent 16gbit ics capable of ludicrous speed

[RONOTHAN##]

3 minutes ago, Vishera said:

I see,Sounds like Micron Rev.E is better the the Micron B-die.

Nope, Micron 16Gb Rev. B is really good. It's more consistent than B die, it can pretty easily clock to 5000MHz, and it does tighten fairly well overall (not tRC, tRAS, or tRFC, but most other timings it's pretty good). In some extreme overclocking scenarios it actually does perform better than Samsung B die because you don't need to do max mem when pushing over 1.8V so  if you need more than ~8GB of RAM for a memory intensive benchmark, Rev. B will actually perform better (for daily use though and most other benchmarks B die is still king). This isn't Micron 8Gb Rev B, that stuf sucks.

 

There is Hynix DJR as well, but that isn't exactly known for it's performance. That memory chip doesn't tighten pretty much any subtimings, it's main advantage is that it just clocks to the moon. If you want to do some frequency validations, this is the stuff you want. 

[Vishera]

12 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

This isn't Micron 8Gb Rev B, that stuf sucks.

Just as i thought when i saw that the 8GB stuff only had 4 ICs instead of 8.

 

And what do you guys think about Micron Rev.B dual rank kits?

[Somerandomtechyboi]

11 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

There is Hynix DJR as well, but that isn't exactly known for it's performance. That memory chip doesn't tighten pretty much any subtimings, it's main advantage is that it just clocks to the moon.

Given enough volt apparently it can do 5600+ on air, this thread is an example of that but thats assuming everything is perfect since theyre using those stupid high bin 5333 gskill and maximus apex boards, also at the edge of reasonable voltages (1.72v). Pretty interesting ics but i dont think theyre very consistent like rev e so some cap at a meager 4533, some clock to the moon at 5600+, so i think ill opt to stay away from these, or maybe ill just go haha selling oced bare pcbs go brrrrrr and bin bare pcbs myself while making some $

 

though the hwbot thread on these ics mentions upto 1.9v which is just straight up nono for daily if that isnt obvious enough, looks like ill need 1.75v bare minimum to reach decent speeds (5200+) so may just be a straight up nono because unreasonable volts

[RONOTHAN##]

1 minute ago, Vishera said:

Just as i thought when i saw that the 8GB stuff only had 4 ICs instead of 8.

 

And what do you guys think about Micron Rev.B dual rank kits?

When I say 8Gb or 16Gb dies, I'm talking about the actual die density, so 1GB per die and 2GB per die. The 8GB OEM sticks with only 4 ICs on them are actually Micron Rev. B 16Gb, they will still suck though since they've got an 1Rx16 organization which cuts the amount of bank groups in half (kinda like you'd be running half rank) and should be avoided, Micron Rev. E will perform better. 

 

Dual rank Rev. B 16Gb is really solid, and if you need 64GB of RAM on a consumer platform is the best way to go about it. It'll overclock pretty well and performance is very solid. 

[Guest]

What's better and faster than Samsung DDR4 B-Die?

 

Probably the DDR5 samsung ----  Wait B-Die DDR5??

 

https://semiconductor.samsung.com/dram/ddr/ddr5/

[RONOTHAN##]

4 minutes ago, Guest 5150 said:

What's better and faster than Samsung DDR4 B-Die?

 

Probably the DDR5 samsung ----  Wait B-Die DDR5??

 

https://semiconductor.samsung.com/dram/ddr/ddr5/

Thing is B die DDR5 is good, but Hynix DDR5 is just better since it clocks higher while tightening up about the same amount. 

 

At least at this current time, maybe things will change when 32Gb ICs get introduced or more 16Gb ICs get introduced.

[Somerandomtechyboi]

11 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

The 8GB OEM sticks with only 4 ICs on them are actually Micron Rev. B 16Gb

12 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

they will still suck though since they've got an 1Rx16 organization

 

Interesting to know 16gbit can come in 8gb sticks, might be useful if i wanna play with interesting ics but dont wanna risk wasting money on complete garbage

 

Btw would a dual rank 1rx16 be = to single rank 1rx8? And are dual rank 1rx16 lighter on the imc than 1rx8?

[RONOTHAN##]

3 minutes ago, Somerandomtechyboi said:

Interesting to know 16gbit can come in 8gb sticks, might be useful if i wanna play with interesting ics but dont wanna risk wasting money on complete garbage

Good luck finding them, they're pretty obscure because they're for ultimate cost cutting, and because 16Gb ICs haven't gotten cheap enough to make sense for those ultimate cost cutting DIMMs until pretty recently (last year or two). You'll basically be limited to desktop RAM, and given how cheap 8GB sticks of 1Rx8 are anyway they are usually about the same price and are just dumb. You can find them a lot more often on SODIMMs, but then you'll have to deal with DIMM to SODIMM adapters to just use an overall worse RAM configuration. 

 

1 minute ago, Somerandomtechyboi said:

Btw would a dual rank 1rx16 be = to single rank 1rx8? And are dual rank 1rx16 lighter on the imc than 1rx8?

I'd assume it'll be slightly worse than 1Rx8, but it's a generally pretty stupid config so I haven't really looked into it. It'll be just as tough on the memory controller as 2Rx8, but will have the performance as 1Rx8 and cost more than 1Rx8. 

[Vishera]

11 minutes ago, Somerandomtechyboi said:

Btw would a dual rank 1rx16 be = to single rank 1rx8? And are dual rank 1rx16 lighter on the imc than 1rx8?

Technically speaking a dual rank 1rx16 is 2rx16,which was a thing in the DDR2 days.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

Thing is B die DDR5 is good, but Hynix DDR5 is just better since it clocks higher while tightening up about the same amount. 

 

At least at this current time, maybe things will change when 32Gb ICs get introduced or more 16Gb ICs get introduced.

Not sure. I have a set of 2 x 8gb Patriot Signature in my cart right now. Not sure what IC they have, but just over all interested in them. I personally wouldn't need more quantity than that, and wonder how they would bench vs 32gb sets. 

 

https://www.newegg.com/patriot-16gb-288-pin-ddr5-sdram/p/N82E16820225306?Item=N82E16820225306

 

 

[Somerandomtechyboi]

2 minutes ago, Vishera said:

Technically speaking a dual rank 1rx16 is 2rx16,which was a thing in the DDR2 days.

Confusion 100

 

My extreem dark ddr2 is in a cursed 2rx8 +  1rx8 config yet still does 1520 by sheer dumb luck (mostly asus p5q not being a failiure for once, though fsb is abit of a limiter as its a meager 490fsb max), 1470 7-9-6-9 is the actual performance config and that does 10400 read on aida which i have no idea how that stacks up to other ddr2, will prob lose to decent d9gmh/gkx though because timings and d9 is pretty damn close to this extreem dark in terms of speed while doing 5-5-5-15 rather than 7-9-6-9, also just sheer cramming 2.6v+ into em xD

 

4 minutes ago, Guest 5150 said:

Not sure. I have a set of 2 x 8gb Patriot Signature in my cart right now. Not sure what IC they have, but just over all interested in them. I personally wouldn't need more quantity than that, and wonder how they would bench vs 32gb sets. 

 

https://www.newegg.com/patriot-16gb-288-pin-ddr5-sdram/p/N82E16820225306?Item=N82E16820225306

1rx16 tho

but does that make a diff for ddr5?

 

and damn 136$, only thing cheaper is some crucial bare pcb at ebay but i havent heard anything on microns, mainly just hynixes going fast on ddr5. Id still look at ebay bare pcbs though since you can ask for a specific ic rather than roll the dice and get a garbage ic most of the time and waste 100$+, pretty much the secret to getting ludicrously good rams for dirt cheap, now just gotta look for dem hynix bare pcbs

[RONOTHAN##]

11 minutes ago, Guest 5150 said:

Not sure. I have a set of 2 x 8gb Patriot Signature in my cart right now. Not sure what IC they have, but just over all interested in them. I personally wouldn't need more quantity than that, and wonder how they would bench vs 32gb sets. 

 

https://www.newegg.com/patriot-16gb-288-pin-ddr5-sdram/p/N82E16820225306?Item=N82E16820225306

 

 

https://www.msi.com/blog/a-closer-look-at-ddr5-benchmarks-with-intels-Alder-lake-cpus

 

It's worse than a lot of DDR4. They're 1Rx16 sticks so they're all the latency of DDR5 without all the bank group advantages of DDR5. If you want DDR5 that actually doesn't suck, you need 2x16GB. 

6 minutes ago, Somerandomtechyboi said:

but does that make a diff for ddr5?

Yes.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Somerandomtechyboi said:

Confusion 100

 

My extreem dark ddr2 is in a cursed 2rx8 +  1rx8 config yet still does 1520 by sheer dumb luck (mostly asus p5q not being a failiure for once, though fsb is abit of a limiter as its a meager 490fsb max), 1470 7-9-6-9 is the actual performance config and that does 10400 read on aida which i have no idea how that stacks up to other ddr2, will prob lose to decent d9gmh/gkx though because timings and d9 is pretty damn close to this extreem dark in terms of speed while doing 5-5-5-15 rather than 7-9-6-9, also just sheer cramming 2.6v+ into em xD

 

1rx16 tho

but does that make a diff for ddr5?

 

and damn 136$, only thing cheaper is some crucial bare pcb at ebay but i havent heard anything on microns, mainly just hynixes going fast on ddr5. Id still look at ebay bare pcbs though since you can ask for a specific ic rather than roll the dice and get a garbage ic most of the time and waste 100$+, pretty much the secret to getting ludicrously good rams for dirt cheap, now just gotta look for dem hynix bare pcbs

That's what I've been trying to tell you for a good minute and a half. 

 

Everyone on the DDR5 prices either isn't looking hard enough or want the really good fast kits.

 

You can really build a decent ddr5 rig around the same price as ddr4,

 

Just gotta be smart shoppers. 32gb for streaming, sure. Gamers like my kid, 16gb on AM4 has been more than enough. And he's got all kinds of shit running on that damn thing haha. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

https://www.msi.com/blog/a-closer-look-at-ddr5-benchmarks-with-intels-Alder-lake-cpus

 

It's worse than a lot of DDR4. They're 1Rx16 sticks so they're all the latency of DDR5 without all the bank group advantages of DDR5. If you want DDR5 that actually doesn't suck, you need 2x16GB. 

 

No, that's not what I said. I'm going to clock them. Latency isn't everything. Those numbers don't mean a great deal. I can lower DRam latency by simply overclocking the processor. That's the easy part. I'd like to try and push 6400mt/s bandwidth from them. But having the DDR5 board sets me up for more expensive kits later, vs building all over again. Just upgrade the sticks. I think it's more cost effective approach.

 

Plus I might kill them. I've been known to break shit in the past.... hehe

 

Oh, plus the Z690 to support 13th gen on DDR5 boards.  Bios updates baby!

[RONOTHAN##]

3 minutes ago, Guest 5150 said:

No, that's not what I said. I'm going to clock them.

They likely won't clock that well. 5600MHz is easy for most RAM ICs, and most won't do much if at all better than that. For OEM sticks like these I wouldn't expect them to do better either. 

 

8 minutes ago, Guest 5150 said:

Latency isn't everything. Those numbers don't mean a great deal.

Did you look at the link though? At a given frequency and timings, it will have roughly 25% less bandwidth and 25% more latency compared to the same frequency and timings on a proper 2x16GB kit. 4800MHz CL40 for a proper 1Rx8 kit will perform slightly better than a 5600MHz CL40 kit of a 1Rx16 kit. 

 

13 minutes ago, Guest 5150 said:

But having the DDR5 board sets me up for more expensive kits later, vs building all over again. Just upgrade the sticks. I think it's more cost effective approach.

I'd argue that by the time DDR5 actually makes sense you'll want to get a new board and CPU anyway, especially given how rough the current DDR5 boards and memory controllers are. It's you're money and everything, but you'll get better performance from a DDR4 kit that will cost less money. 

[Somerandomtechyboi]

10 minutes ago, Guest 5150 said:

Everyone on the DDR5 prices either isn't looking hard enough or want the really good fast kits.

Imo fast kits are idiot traps when theres bare pcbs with the same ic and mostly the same clock capabilities (depending on bin), i mean here in indo theres dirt cheap 8gbit samsung d die and microm rev e that clocks to the moon on generic 2133-2666 bin bare pcbs at ~20-25$ ea while everyone else paying 70$ for a 3200 c16 kit which these bare pcbs will outspeed and outperform, which is pretty much why i can shoot down those fancy 4600 prob djr vgen tsunami kits at 140$ for less than 1/3 the price xD, course the obvious stuff like viper 4400 cant be shot down unless i get lucky and find 5400+ capable djr sticks since b die is just insane and all you need to do is just crank the volt and voila 4800+ c16 (~1.75v) though it is also inconsistent so that helps and not helps

 

 

The only time i see fast kits being worth it is binning (good samsung b die bins, high bin version of an ic like rev e) when either it takes too long to find a decent bin off a bare pcb or its just straight up impossible to find a decent bin on a bare pcb like b die

[Guest]

2 hours ago, RONOTHAN## said:

They likely won't clock that well. 5600MHz is easy for most RAM ICs, and most won't do much if at all better than that. For OEM sticks like these I wouldn't expect them to do better either. 

 

Did you look at the link though? At a given frequency and timings, it will have roughly 25% less bandwidth and 25% more latency compared to the same frequency and timings on a proper 2x16GB kit. 4800MHz CL40 for a proper 1Rx8 kit will perform slightly better than a 5600MHz CL40 kit of a 1Rx16 kit. 

 

I'd argue that by the time DDR5 actually makes sense you'll want to get a new board and CPU anyway, especially given how rough the current DDR5 boards and memory controllers are. It's you're money and everything, but you'll get better performance from a DDR4 kit that will cost less money. 

No, I understand all that. But DDR5 experience won't come from running DDR4 platforms. I can't say either way from just reading stuff, so I'd like to get paws and claws dug in. 

 

[RONOTHAN##]

22 minutes ago, Guest 5150 said:

No, I understand all that. But DDR5 experience won't come from running DDR4 platforms. I can't say either way from just reading stuff, so I'd like to get paws and claws dug in. 

 

I'd rather wait for an actually good memory controller before trying to do all this. It's like comparing memory overclocking on X99 compared to memory overclocking on Z170. They're just two completely different beasts where memory overclocking behaves totally different on the early platforms compared to the 2nd gen or later ones. DDR5 will be the same way, and most experience you get with DDR5 on Alder Lake than it will on AM5 or Meteor Lake when they fix the memory topology and refine the memory controllers. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

I'd rather wait for an actually good memory controller before trying to do all this. It's like comparing memory overclocking on X99 compared to memory overclocking on Z170. They're just two completely different beasts where memory overclocking behaves totally different on the early platforms compared to the 2nd gen or later ones. DDR5 will be the same way, and most experience you get with DDR5 on Alder Lake than it will on AM5 or Meteor Lake when they fix the memory topology and refine the memory controllers. 

Yep. No different than all the OC adventures on 1st and 2nd Gen Ryzen. 

 

I'd beg to differ my aging 8700K is faster than a 5600X. Depending on the usage I suppose. But no. AM4 is not an upgrade path for my current DDr4 hardware. I'm ready to move past now. Just on a lower budget than I usually would like to spend. 

[RONOTHAN##]

28 minutes ago, Guest 5150 said:

I'd beg to differ my aging 8700K is faster than a 5600X.

Where did that come from? Also benchmarks say otherwise, it's not even close. 

 

36 minutes ago, Guest 5150 said:

AM4 is not an upgrade path for my current DDr4 hardware.

AM4 isn't what you should be looking at though, Alder Lake DDR4 is actually really solid, it's what I would be looking at if I were to build a new system today. 

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

Where did that come from? Also benchmarks say otherwise, it's not even close. 

 

AM4 isn't what you should be looking at though, Alder Lake DDR4 is actually really solid, it's what I would be looking at if I were to build a new system today. 

Not sure which bencmarks, but old school RTX 2060 I thought turned out pretty well. 3DMark06 49604 marks. But I only ran most legacy cause Steam wasn't installed. I don't recall seeing any AMD platforms besting it yet. But then people would have to submit those benches for comparison. 

 

I could totally do a DDR4 12th gen set up. I have the memory for it. Spare kit of 3600mhz B-Dies, I know they easily do 4000. But wouldn't mind having an ROG board too. Prime is just like priming to get into a real board. They seem limited for memory overclocking aspects. 

 

At least my case makes it easy to overhaul. SilverStone TJ07 still towering after all these years lol.