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Moving out of the US

BuckGup
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Hello, after a lot of consideration I think I want to move from the US but haven't narrowed down somewhere specifically. I've been to every state in the US and a couple of countries but never anything outside of North and South America. So I was looking for feedback from individuals who live in countries outside of the US.

 

My main points of interest are the climate, cost of living, and availability of tech related jobs. The last isn't huge as everything is moving to remote now. 

 

Thanks

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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1 minute ago, BuckGup said:

Hello, after a lot of consideration I think I want to move from the US but haven't narrowed down somewhere specifically. I've been to every state in the US and a couple of countries but never anything outside of North and South America. So I was looking for feedback from individuals who live in countries outside of the US.

 

My main points of interest are the climate, cost of living, and availability of tech related jobs. The last isn't huge as everything is moving to remote now. 

 

Thanks

What languages do you speak?

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Calgary Alberta, Canada is in a massive upswing with tech related ( a lot of startups and major companies have opened offices here in the last year or two) jobs as well as more general IT jobs in the oil patch.

 

Winter is pretty mild here (at least for canadian winter) and the summers are usually 20-30C 

 

Cost of living isn't too bad. A liveable wage is supposed to be about 18 CAD/hr. I bring home about 65k before tax and I live pretty comfortably with a decent 2 bedroom apartment and a truck payment in a really nice part of the city.

 

No idea which area of tech you're in but I know for a brand new software developer (SD1) the average salary is about 75-80k a year (I'm getting pretty underpaid by my current company lol). Enough to own a home here if you're responsible with your expenses.

 

A buddy of mine is a (newer) senior Sysadmin and he makes the low 6 figures at an oil company. Gives you an idea for the more IT side of things.

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USA is where the money is if you are looking to do tech, pays a lot higher compare to any other places in Europe or Canada. With remote work nowadays, you are free to move to a cheaper area to lower your cost of living. the only downside is you might be paying income taxes in two states thus double taxation.  

 

38 minutes ago, trag1c said:

Cost of living isn't too bad. A liveable wage is supposed to be about 18 CAD/hr. I bring home about 65k before tax and I live pretty comfortably with a decent 2 bedroom apartment and a truck payment in a really nice part of the city.

That is awesome man. I earned 100K USD in NYC and that only qualifies me for a small one bed room apartment at any place near Manhattan. 😕 

Sudo make me a sandwich 

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1 hour ago, wasab said:

USA is where the money is if you are looking to do tech, pays a lot higher compare to any other places in Europe or Canada. -> I earned 100K USD in NYC and that only qualifies me for a small one bed room apartment at any place near Manhattan. 😕 

I don't care about making lots of money and that's why I am fine with lower standards of living but cheaper cost of living and things like healthcare

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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9 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

I don't care about making lots of money and that's why I am fine with lower standards of living but cheaper cost of living and things like healthcare

France? Assuming you can learn French, of course. Outside of Paris, property is pretty affordable, and the food is incredible. If you're willing to pick up another language, Germany is another possibility too.

 

I'd suggest passing on the UK, the place is becoming more dysfunctional by the day 🤬 Plus IT is poorly paid, and the houses are expensive.

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6 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Hello, after a lot of consideration I think I want to move from the US but haven't narrowed down somewhere specifically. I've been to every state in the US and a couple of countries but never anything outside of North and South America. So I was looking for feedback from individuals who live in countries outside of the US.

 

My main points of interest are the climate, cost of living, and availability of tech related jobs. The last isn't huge as everything is moving to remote now. 

 

Thanks

You know that moving to another country isn't as simple as just packing up and going right? You will need to get the job first and get visa sponsorship to begin the paperwork. I can't think of any country that will let you move there long term without major hassle. (point of reference - I've lived overseas for 12 years now)

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2 hours ago, BuckGup said:

I don't care about making lots of money and that's why I am fine with lower standards of living but cheaper cost of living and things like healthcare

standard of living is a function of income - cost of living to substain a certain lifestyle. Living standard can be the same if you are earning greater income at a higher cost of living area or earning lesser income at lower cost of livng area as long as these are enough to substain your previous lifestyle. I am under the impression that Europe is generally a more expensive place to live while not offering much opportunties in their tech sectors. Canada seems alright if the living cost is low enough.  

 

you can pretty much see what American engineers and tech workers make compare to elsewhere. It is drastically higher 

https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/m635u7/official_salary_sharing_thread_for_new_grads/

 

Sudo make me a sandwich 

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25 minutes ago, wasab said:

standard of living is a function of income - cost of living to substain a certain lifestyle. Living standard can be the same if you are earning greater income at a higher cost of living area or earning lesser income at lower cost of livng area as long as these are enough to substain your previous lifestyle. I am under the impression that Europe is generally a more expensive place to live while not offering much opportunties in their tech sectors. Canada seems alright if the living cost is low enough.  

 

you can pretty much see what American engineers and tech workers make compare to elsewhere. It is drastically higher 

https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/m635u7/official_salary_sharing_thread_for_new_grads/

 

I understand that and already worked in the tech world for a couple years making fat stacks for someone my age but there is more to it than money. Despite being the most financially stable and rich I have ever been I was the least happy I had ever been. It helped me learn more what I want though and is why I am considering moving.

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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33 minutes ago, Blue4130 said:

You know that moving to another country isn't as simple as just packing up and going right? You will need to get the job first and get visa sponsorship to begin the paperwork. I can't think of any country that will let you move there long term without major hassle. (point of reference - I've lived overseas for 12 years now)

It probably depends on the country but couldn't you buy land and then get residency after awhile?

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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11 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

It probably depends on the country but couldn't you buy land and then get residency after awhile?

No, most definitely not. Most countries will limit you to maximum stays per year as a tourist. To get reaidency, you will need to invest a certain dollar value or open a business. Each country is different obviously, but it's not a trivial matter to pick up and move without visa sponsorship. 

 

Some countries won't even let you purchase land/house if you aren't a resident. 

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15 hours ago, BuckGup said:

I understand that and already worked in the tech world for a couple years making fat stacks for someone my age but there is more to it than money.

If that’s the case I do not understand why you would consider living cost and tech opportunities to be a factor since these won’t be important to you. If you just want the climate and cheap cost, there is philippines where many retirees go to so they can stretch their retirement dollars. 

Sudo make me a sandwich 

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Spain:

  • Climate - This heavily depends. While Spain isn't particularly large, it does have a few different areas with different climate.
    • Do you want something close to British weather, but with actual heat and sun during the summer? Cantabrian sea coast, northern Spain. It's also quite green and beautiful, in my humble opinion.
    • Do you want Mediterranean weather? Well, uh... go to the Mediterranean?
    • Do you want mild temperatures in winter, and to cook yourself alive in summer as you come to understand the true meaning of "hell on earth"? Southern tip of Spain.
    • Do you want semi-arid plains, with cold winters and dry summers? The vast interior is for you.
    • Do you want mild temperatures all year round, with just a bit of heat? Canary Islands. Problem is, the islands are so far from the actual peninsula, their services aren't necessarily the best - you do sacrifice access to some things in exchange of much milder and comfortable climate.
  • Cost of Living
    • If you go live at/around one of the big cities, be prepared to pay. Renting your own apartment could easily start at 800€ a month if you don't want to live in a slum.
    • If you don't mind living somewhere a bit separated from the largest cities, it's very reasonable. I'm currently making less than 30K a year (and that's before taxes), but I live in a not-very-densely-populated area and I can live rather comfortably by myself with that salary.
  • Availability of Tech Jobs
    • Quite a few, actually, although that's going to depend on what your skillset is. Do beware though, as the... hhrrmm I don't know if there's an equivalent for this in the US/UK. Here, we have what are called "convenios", they're industry-wide labour agreements. Basically, if you get hired by a company in, let's say, metallurgy, the contract must grant you at least the basics covered by the specific metallurgy "convenio", things like:
      • Yearly paid vacation days.
      • Minimum salary.
      • Maximum hours to be worked a year.
      • Overtime requirements, and how it's paid.
    • However, in the tech industry, we have a problem. The consulting "convenio" is currently the worst of all the office-related "convenios" (in fact, the unions are currently in rather heated negotiations with the employers' association, and it may end in strikes...)
      Because those conditions are much worse for the employee (and therefore, better for the employer) a very large portion of IT jobs are in consulting agencies.
      If you come here, pay very close attention to all conditions in your contract, and if they offer any improvements over the basic "convenio".

Another thing to keep in mind, if you decide to try your luck here, is language.
Most people in Spain do NOT speak English. You can probably move and get a job just with English, but for your daily life you need Spanish or you'll likely end up ostracized because almost no-one can understand you.
You do say you've lived in areas of South America, though, so that may not be a big problem for you.

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If you move to Sofia, Bulgaria (Eastern Europe; Sofia is the capital city of my country), you'll be living like a king, for the most part. I'm not advertising my country in any way, btw. If I could swap with you, I'd choose to live in US, even with the latest Dark Age laws there (I'm talking about the overturned Roe v Wade ruling). But by American standards you WILL be living like a king bc the dollar/lev rate here is 1:1.80, meaning that one dollar exchanges for 1.80 BGN. The electricity rates are pretty much the same as in the States, judging by this website: https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/ . Apart from the electricity and water rates, everything else is about 3-4 times cheaper here. For instance, you can have a 1Gbit internet connection for 50-60 BGN per month which is about $33. The PC hardware is 40-50% more expensive than in US, but not all of it. Some time ago I saw the same CPU cooler that I have inside my PC case sold on Amazon - its price was $130, whereas I bought it here for $30.

But there are downsides here too, this country is far from being an oasis. Every new government keeps stealing money from the treasury, thus the bigger part of the Bulgarians live in misery and the same people made finding a job harder than it ever was. You can't get a decent job, if you don't have a pu55y between your legs and if you don't keep them constantly open for anyone who would like to move in between them. IDK whether it's the same for outlanders, though.

The climate is mostly summer and winter, we haven't had a normal spring or an autumn in decades. Roughly speaking, it's 6 months winter and 6 months summer but even that sometimes varies. There were a few separate years when the winter went on till mid June. Normally June is a summer month. Sometimes, if we're lucky, the African winds blow hot particles in our direction and when that happens, the summer starts in the beginning of March and goes on till late October. Personally I hate the winter as a season, that's why I consider the African winds blowing this way to be lucky for us. Why I hate the winter? IDK what the winter is in the States, but quite often our winter's temperatures drop to minus 30 degrees Celsius (-22 F) during the day, not to mention the night...

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18 hours ago, BuckGup said:

 

 

My main points of interest are the climate, cost of living, and availability of tech related jobs. The last isn't huge as everything is moving to remote now. 

 

 

Like Performance, Size, Cost... Pick 2.

Given that you don't know where you want to go, I'd probably try being a digital nomad for a while and travel and try new locations out. 

 

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2 hours ago, Rauten said:

Spain:

Another thing to keep in mind, if you decide to try your luck here, is language.
Most people in Spain do NOT speak English. You can probably move and get a job just with English, but for your daily life you need Spanish or you'll likely end up ostracized because almost no-one can understand you.
You do say you've lived in areas of South America, though, so that may not be a big problem for you.

 

1 hour ago, Valso said:

If you move to Sofia, Bulgaria

Have either of you seen the requirements for immigrating to your respective countries? I just looked, it's not something that a young professional would be able to do (with the exception of getting married to a local).

The commmonality is roughly $100,000 minimum in your bank, and a valid business that you plan on opening there.

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13 minutes ago, Blue4130 said:

 

Have either of you seen the requirements for immigrating to your respective countries? I just looked, it's not something that a young professional would be able to do (with the exception of getting married to a local).

The commmonality is roughly $100,000 minimum in your bank, and a valid business that you plan on opening there.

I didn't. I have now.

 

If you come in without a job, you need to have savings/investments enough to cover 3K$/month in costs, or 36K$/year.

If you come in with a job, you get a standard 90days visitor, visa, no economic requirements, but you need to register in our social security system as a working foreigner within the first month after your arrival.

 

https://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consulados/washington/en/ServiciosConsulares/Paginas/Consular/Visado-de-residencia-no-lucrativa.aspx

https://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consulados/washington/en/ServiciosConsulares/Paginas/Consular/Visado-de-trabajo-por-cuenta-ajena.aspx

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12 minutes ago, Rauten said:

I didn't. I have now.

 

If you come in without a job, you need to have savings/investments enough to cover 3K$/month in costs, or 36K$/year.

If you come in with a job, you get a standard 90days visitor, visa, no economic requirements, but you need to register in our social security system as a working foreigner within the first month after your arrival.

 

https://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consulados/washington/en/ServiciosConsulares/Paginas/Consular/Visado-de-residencia-no-lucrativa.aspx

https://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consulados/washington/en/ServiciosConsulares/Paginas/Consular/Visado-de-trabajo-por-cuenta-ajena.aspx

But if you come in without a job, you can't stay. If you want to stay, you need to either open a business or invest an absurd amount of money into the country (the cheapest is 500,000 Euro in realestate)

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1 minute ago, Blue4130 said:

But if you come in without a job, you can't stay. If you want to stay, you need to either open a business or invest an absurd amount of money into the country (the cheapest is 500,000 Euro in realestate)

??

Uhm

I don't know where you're getting your data from, but my first link is literally the Spanish embassy in Washington's website specifying the details of the non-working long term visa.

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2 minutes ago, Rauten said:

??

Uhm

I don't know where you're getting your data from, but my first link is literally the Spanish embassy in Washington's website specifying the details of the non-working long term visa.

But you specifically can't work on that visa. I was looking at residence permit. That is what you need to actually work.

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2 hours ago, Blue4130 said:

But you specifically can't work on that visa. I was looking at residence permit. That is what you need to actually work.

Do you know if an online business fills these needs?

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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4 hours ago, Valso said:

If you move to Sofia, Bulgaria (Eastern Europe; Sofia is the capital city of my country)

As someone who visits Bulgaria every other year, I have yet to come across someone who speaks English other than yes and no (even in vacation locations like Burgas). Not to mention Bulgarian language uses Cyrillic based alphabet and that is always fun for latin alphabet readers. There is also the corrupt police situation, as if you are there with a foreign license plate you gonna pay for that çorba. Overall, I do enjoy my stay there a month every other year but I am not sure how others would. I also noticed that country has been swarmed with Russians over the last couple of years, I am not saying that as a bad thing but even that was able to impact the costs of my staying there even when I stay there for a month every two years.

 

6 hours ago, Rauten said:

Most people in Spain do NOT speak English. You can probably move and get a job just with English, but for your daily life you need Spanish or you'll likely end up ostracized because almost no-one can understand you.

Can confirm, I have been to Madrid, southern Spain and Ceuta those places were lovely. Though this was 9 years ago and refugee crisis wasnt so bad there back then.

 

I kept getting whiskey when I asked for water, next day first word I had to learn was "Aqua", good times.

mY s YsTeM iS Not pErfoRmInG aS gOOd As I sAW oN yOuTuBe. WhA t IS a GoOd FaN CuRVe??!!? wHat aRe tEh GoOd OvERclok SeTTinGS FoR My CaRd??
 HoW CaN I foRcE my GpU to uSe 1o0%? BuT WiLL i HaVE Bo0tllEnEcKs? RyZEN dOeS NoT peRfORm BetTer wItH HiGhER sPEED RaM!!dId i WiN teH SiLiCON LotTerrYyOu ShoUlD dEsHrOuD uR GPUmy SYstEm iS UNDerPerforMiNg iN WarzONEcan mY Pc Run WiNdOwS 11 ?woUld BaKInG MY GRaPHics card fIX it?
 MultimETeR TeSTiNG!! aMd'S GpU DrIvErS aRe as goOD aS NviDia's YOU SHoUlD oVERCloCk yOUR ramS To 5000C18

 

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On 6/28/2022 at 12:26 AM, James Evens said:

In the past you had access to the US-shops surrounding the military bases but I think they have closed all of them for the general public (the local US base closed more then a decade ago so also the shops and restaurants vanished).

Depends on where you live. There are still some places, especially in southern Germany (RP, BW and Bavaria), where a lot of Americans and American Soldiers live; like K-Town (Kaiserslautern), Wiesbaden, Vilseck to name some of the bigger ones. There are still shops and restaurants in these cities that mainly target American customers. You can also still listen to American Radio (AFN) around these areas.

If you are talking about big supermarkets with actual American products you cannot get in German stores those were never really open to the German public and were and still are located on base. You can still shop in them if you get access to base.

Yes, generally the amount of American Soldiers and therefore Americans has decreased steadily over the last two decades, even my dad was an engineer for the US Army in Germany until the late 90s. Even in places where the US military is still present it is very much noticeable and I only know a few that still work or serve on US Military Bases in Germany. 

Desktop: i9-10850K [Noctua NH-D15 Chromax.Black] | Asus ROG Strix Z490-E | G.Skill Trident Z 2x16GB 3600mhz 16-16-16-36 | Asus ROG Strix RTX 3080Ti OC | SeaSonic PRIME Ultra Gold 1000W | Samsung 970 Evo Plus 1TB | Samsung 860 Evo 2TB | CoolerMaster MasterCase H500 ARGB | Win 10

Display: Samsung Odyssey G7A (28" 4K)

 

Laptop: LenovoY70-70 | i7-4820hq | 16GB 1600mhz | GTX 960M 4GB | Linux Ubuntu 18.04

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On 6/27/2022 at 12:24 PM, BuckGup said:

think I want to move from the US

I dont blame you. If I could Id probably move out of the US as well. 

I just want to sit back and watch the world burn. 

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On 6/27/2022 at 11:28 AM, trag1c said:

Calgary Alberta, Canada is in a massive upswing with tech related ( a lot of startups and major companies have opened offices here in the last year or two) jobs as well as more general IT jobs in the oil patch.

 

Winter is pretty mild here (at least for canadian winter) and the summers are usually 20-30C 

 

Cost of living isn't too bad. A liveable wage is supposed to be about 18 CAD/hr. I bring home about 65k before tax and I live pretty comfortably with a decent 2 bedroom apartment and a truck payment in a really nice part of the city.

 

No idea which area of tech you're in but I know for a brand new software developer (SD1) the average salary is about 75-80k a year (I'm getting pretty underpaid by my current company lol). Enough to own a home here if you're responsible with your expenses.

 

A buddy of mine is a (newer) senior Sysadmin and he makes the low 6 figures at an oil company. Gives you an idea for the more IT side of things.

winter is like 8 moths of the year and -35 at its peek... unless you go there to make moeny dont... rent even not even cheap... have to pay a moth rent in damage deposit as well. if you like hunting, and stuff like that i guess its ok...

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