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This was all a waste of money. - HDR on YouTube Rant

James
By James
in LTT Releases
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Many of you have been asking why we upload our videos in SDR instead of HDR. Well, we’ve been asking the same question, so let’s examine why HDR content creation is such a pain on YouTube, and what YouTube can do to help make things easier (hint: it involves LUTs!)

 

 

 

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Just now, emosun said:

I feel like hdr isn't that great anyway. Case and point , the last 100 years of non hdr content from humanity seems pretty good.

the 86 years of the steam era seemed pretty good, so why even have an internal combustion engine?

 

25 years of black & white TV was pretty good, so why would we need color TV?

 

it's not because the current implementation is absolute ass, that it's not a significant addition in the long run.

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3 minutes ago, manikyath said:

 

I like that you had to go to extremes to make it seem like hdr is some sort of massive leap. Pretty much the only way anyone could argue for it.

"Why bother having society when we could just live in caves as nomads hunting mammoths"

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I can see migrating from an SDR to HDR workflow to be very expensive and major work-stoppage, especially with large channels like LTT. For smaller groups, ripping the bandage early would be risky if it cost too much, but great learning opportunity and investment in "future" increasing readiness in their workflow.

 

If I were to start a youtube channel, I personally would like to dive head first into HDR as a learning opportunity.

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1 minute ago, emosun said:

I like that you had to go to extremes to make it seem like hdr is some sort of massive leap. Pretty much the only way anyone could argue for it.

i mean.. steam vs ICE felt like a step backwards at the start with how much work ICE required versus the perfected steam engines. 

 

and i sort of presume that color TV was about as much of a "need to have" as 4K these days, from what i've heard of the elderly in my family.

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Just now, Mel0nMan said:

Oh cool, glad I'll be able to do this for my channel in 20 yrs when the hardware becomes affordable

basicly... maybe not 20 years, but essentially this is how HDR feels right now. maybe by the time display manufacturers figure out how to make a display with good blacks that doesnt cost a fortune it'll be nice to have HDR be commonplace too.

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1 minute ago, manikyath said:

and i sort of presume that color TV was about as much of a "need to have" as 4K these days, from what i've heard of the elderly in my family.

I like that were comparing the entire absence of color to "slightly better color/contrast"

Just don't dip into film though stay in that nice safe place of tv

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I'm too old to understand HDR.  All I see is it somehow fucks the color accuracy of everything SDR (which is most things) and makes it so your monitor can't be calibrated anymore.  And then there will be shit like the codec, the player, the OS, the display all having to handshake for it to work.  So if my TV can figure it out: great.  Windows: uhhhh yeah I'll just use SDR.

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1 hour ago, James said:

Many of you have been asking why we upload our videos in SDR instead of HDR. Well, we’ve been asking the same question, so let’s examine why HDR content creation is such a pain on YouTube, and what YouTube can do to help make things easier (hint: it involves LUTs!)

 

 

 

It's unlikely I'll actually get any feedback on this but:
Do browsers even support HDR/HDR+ correctly for HDR capable and SDR only displays? I haven't really used HDR and don't own any HDR capable hardware except my around average phone, so I never really looked into this, but I can certainly say that from my experience of developing software for the web, anything video related is.... ass... because nothing is supported fully, it doesn't work reliably cross-platform and doesn't behave the same way on each browser, it's likely these considerations are potentially a few things holding youtube back from properly implementing it; because it's not their fault, but the browsers instead?

There aren't even many video players out there which can correctly stream video similarly to shaka player without completely mutating its contents, and the ones that do, aren't really adaptive.

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LTT has been incorrectly uploading videos for some time, resulting in pitifully low bitrates. "This was all a waste of money," not because of HDR but because you're sending YouTube either low-bitrate encodes or some format it doesn't like. YT wants H.264 at 35-45 Mbps on the input side. Whoever is handling uploads is either sending a low bitrate encode, or some format YT doesn't prefer.

 

The huge irony is that the "This was all a waste of money" video is a pitiful 6.1 Mbps VP9 on the output side, even lower than the usual ~7 Mbps of LTT vids.

 

Gamers Nexus, for example, is typically over 20 Mbps VP9 (equivalent to ~40 Mbps H.264). And that's with a lot of charts on screen!

 

LTT, after you fire your uploader, have their replacement regularly download your videos with yt-dlp "bestvideo+bestaudio" and drop them into MediaInfo to validate the quality. That should be a required part of your process.

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Side Tangent: I recently got hold of a 5.1 sound system for my PC.. and YouTube doesn't support it on PC.. Sigh.

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Sorry, but this is the pot calling the kettle black. Yes, Youtube isn't perfect but if the majority of people don't have HDR due to watching on lower res monitors why would they devote dev time to it? its no different than floatplane not having smart TV apps. I watch all youtube now from my Fire Stick or Roku. Floatplane after years of existing seem to have no interest in developing apps for those platforms. I assume that's because a business decision was made that the 10% who watch on TV weren't worth the dev time. Of course floatplane also has an absolutely dreadful user experience on android (and not much better through the browser), so it could also be a larger issue. Either way  my assumption is similar rationales for not devoting dev time to lesser used features.

Beyond this though, I just got a Framework laptop and the screen looks amazing, but I don't believe it supports HDR. So I'd suggest that HDR isn't the be all and end all. My new monitors do support HDR however, and yet I still prefer to watch video content on my Roku or Fire Stick. Now I'm a sample size of one, but if I look at the average monitor and TV types being sold (in the UK) I can't see why it's such an issue. In short, anyone that worried about LMG not uploading in HDR has clearly lost sight of the fact that they're not in the majority. Of course, if I'd spent the money I imagine they'd spent I'd probably be as curious.

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If you guys want to make an impact, it would be better to post this outside of YouTube so you can show the power of your viewership. You're just preaching to the choir at this point.

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I dont understand the problem. If the user hasnt got an HDR monitor, it just defaults to the SDR version? If you actually go on the HDR Channel, it displays SDR on my PC, but HDR on my TV perfectly fine.

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I just left this in the YouTube comments. My hope is that it finds someone at LTT:

 

Quote

Most of what you're complaining about is what HLG was built to solve. Grade however you grade, but as a final conversion step, transfer to HLG. Make sure reference white is at 75% (NOT 50%!). If you are grading to PQ as an intermediate step, then put reference white at 203 nits and MaxCLL at 1,000 nits; a PQ signal mastered like this is ready for naive conversion to HLG.

 

I am the sole author of this utility:

 

https://github.com/wswartzendruber/hlg-tools

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4 hours ago, emosun said:

I feel like hdr isn't that great anyway. Case and point , the last 100 years of non hdr content from humanity seems pretty good.

Thats a straight up terrible argument and is the opposite of progression 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted

None of our tvs and probably none of our monitors support hdr. Our smartphones support hdr maybe? Probably? So whatever, we don't have the money to make actual use out of it anyway.

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4 hours ago, emosun said:

I like that were comparing the entire absence of color to "slightly better color/contrast"

Just don't dip into film though stay in that nice safe place of tv

I get your point, but at the same time, most of our improvements are reasonably small. Yet all of them together become quite important.

 

I remember playing Spider-Man on the PS4 on the screen downstairs, vs the one upstairs. While the one downstairs is generally the better screen, the one upstairs has HDR400. Nothing impressive, yet the results were quite impressive.

 

I'm not saying this is the same for these kinds of videos, but then again the point isn't about how much of an improvement it is, but that it doesn't get used because it doesn't work properly at all. And especially now, when it's harder and harder to make improvements, we really should try and get those small improvements in for sure.

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I use a TV (Samsung GQ55QN95A) - 4k HDR10+ & HLG

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Man i wish to see hdr on my tv in the next 10 years.. My cheap 42 inch electra barely manages android haha.

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Baby: MPG X570 GAMING PLUS | AMD Ryzen 9 5900x /w PBO | Corsair H150i Pro RGB | ASRock RX 7900 XTX Phantom Gaming OC (3020Mhz & 2650Memory) | Corsair Vengeance RGB PRO 32GB DDR4 (4x8GB) 3600 MHz | Corsair RM1000x |  WD_BLACK SN850 | WD_BLACK SN750 | Samsung EVO 850 | Kingston A400 |  PNY CS900 | Lian Li O11 Dynamic White | Display(s): Samsung Oddesy G7, ASUS TUF GAMING VG27AQZ 27" & MSI G274F

 

I also drive a volvo as one does being norwegian haha, a volvo v70 d3 from 2016.

Reliability was a key thing and its my second car, working pretty well for its 6 years age xD

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hdr been around for over 100 years.

its still very costly.

linus ref the lvl of screen you need and cost of it.

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