Apple will allow Linux VMs to run Intel apps with Rosetta in macOS Ventura

[Paul Thexton]

29 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Because if I write a program for x86,  and I want to run it on arm with an emulator (just an example we don't need to discuss why this is stupid), then as I am not breaking any licensing agreements why should ARM have any power to stop me? 

Right I get it now. So the question becomes, is Rosetta2 the only x86_64 emulator available for ARM Linux? My guess would be no? (I've never looked to check). So even if Apple didn't allow (either by some kind of technical implementation or licensing restriction) Rosetta2 to be used on bare metal Linux on AS, then there would be other options anyway.

 

This is still a moot point though, as Apple apparently aren't preventing the use of Rosetta2 on bare metal Linux on their machines.

 

The distinction between Rosetta2 and other options will be that it's tailored specifically for the hardware and can take advantage of the memory switching modes which allow for faster performance than other options such as the emulation currently available on Windows ARM. Also I'd be surprised if other open source options on Linux don't eventually catch up and also take advantage of M* chips where possible.

[hishnash]

4 hours ago, mr moose said:

In my opinion the concept any hardware company allowing me to run a program I own (meaning I have permission from the developer to run it on any device) should not be considered a great move, it should be something we already have and always had, it should not even be news let alone a headline.

 

The new ability to run Rosseta on linux is not a change in license agreement it is a completely new version of Rosseta that supports running on linux that is what the headline is.  The older version of rosseta was not able to run on linux as apple had not developed it to run on linux, just the same as any other random application you might buy cant run on linux unless the developers put work in and for something as low level as rosetta this work is a non trivial amount of work needed.   

[Roswell]

On 6/8/2022 at 7:10 AM, mr moose said:

I need a license to run software I own on a CPU I have purchased?  Sad sad world indeed.

 

 

You don’t own the software at all, not sure where you’re getting that idea from. You have a license to use it as the licenser sees fit. 
 

Same logic applies to any other license. Just because I’m licensed to use the roads in my state/country doesn’t magically mean I now own the roads, lol.

[RedRound2]

On 6/9/2022 at 4:12 PM, mr moose said:

I'm saying the concept that  a hardware maker can and does restrict what software you run on it is anti consumer.  You don;t seem to care, good for you,  but this sort of practice is not going any place good. 

 

It's an artificial barrier. 

You fundamentally skewed the entire thing to fit your religious narrative better.

 

Apple developed Rosetta 2 for macOS and for their hardware and for their apps. Now they have allowed it (seemingly out of nowhere because I most definitely did not see people crying about the lack of it) on Linux. Its not a secret how good Rosetta 2 is compared to literally everything else that existed till now. So the fact that Apple is allowing you to use their superior translation software on other platforms is a win.

 

But, nooooo. aPple eViL megacorp

[RedRound2]

17 hours ago, Roswell said:

You don’t own the software at all, not sure where you’re getting that idea from. You have a license to use it as the licenser sees fit. 
 

Same logic applies to any other license. Just because I’m licensed to use the roads in my state/country doesn’t magically mean I now own the roads, lol.

Well imagine @mr mooseworld now then, where everyone has the right to own all roads, break it apart as they wish and use the tar for your backyard project 

[mr moose]

17 hours ago, Roswell said:

You don’t own the software at all, not sure where you’re getting that idea from. You have a license to use it as the licenser sees fit. 
 

Same logic applies to any other license. Just because I’m licensed to use the roads in my state/country doesn’t magically mean I now own the roads, lol.

You misunderstand what I was saying, when I said "software I own"  I actually meant software I own the right to run on any device simply because that is the license I paid for,  or in fact it is software I own the rights to.  

 

 

7 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

You fundamentally skewed the entire thing to fit your religious narrative better.

 

Apple developed Rosetta 2 for macOS and for their hardware and for their apps. Now they have allowed it (seemingly out of nowhere because I most definitely did not see people crying about the lack of it) on Linux. Its not a secret how good Rosetta 2 is compared to literally everything else that existed till now. So the fact that Apple is allowing you to use their superior translation software on other platforms is a win.

 

But, nooooo. aPple eViL megacorp

Doesn't follow a basic premise so resorts to ad hominem.

 

 

There is no religious narrative or misunderstanding or skewing of anything here.   If you don't think what I am saying has any merit you are free to ignore me.  If you think I am somehow wrong then you are free to address my postulations.  You are,  however,  not right to make personal attacks or make stupid claims about hating apple as being my only motivation for such positions.       Because that is not a rebuttal, it is in fact a nothing burger that refutes nothing, proves nothing, changes nothing and leaves the rest of us wondering why you didn't bother to even try and understand what I was saying.

 

 

 

For the last time,  when the title literally reads "apple will allow Linux VMS to run intel apps",  the first thing that came to my mind was what right did they have in the first place to not allow it?  What right does any hardware maker have to stop me from running software I have the "license" to run?  If that concept is too hard to understand without conflating it with a myriad of unrelated conditions then there really is no hope for consumers.     This has nothing to do with being only about apple or being about rosetta.   It is literally a just meandering thought that was spawned by the title.  If running intel apps on apple M1 hardware is not a problem then the title is erroneous,  but if there is a problem then it is reflective of current corporate tech attitudes towards consumers and heaven help any poor soul who doesn't see a problem with that.

 

 

 

 

[RedRound2]

59 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Doesn't follow a basic premise so resorts to ad hominem.

Says the person who wrote an entire paragraph addressing a single line that constituted less than 10% of my complete post (see below)

59 minutes ago, mr moose said:

There is no religious narrative or misunderstanding or skewing of anything here.   If you don't think what I am saying has any merit you are free to ignore me.  If you think I am somehow wrong then you are free to address my postulations.  You are,  however,  not right to make personal attacks or make stupid claims about hating apple as being my only motivation for such positions.       Because that is not a rebuttal, it is in fact a nothing burger that refutes nothing, proves nothing, changes nothing and leaves the rest of us wondering why you didn't bother to even try and understand what I was saying.

Stop pretending like I only wrote something to make fun of you and never actually explained things properly. Your entire paragraph rant is rendered moot considering that I delicately explained to you in the previous post and I'm continuing to explain to you in this post

 

Your postulations are pretty stupid, tbh. Its seems like you have complete lack of understanding how things worked in the entire industry for decades, and pretending like this some newfound revelation

 

Since when were you able to run Windows exe on Mac or mac dmg/pkg files on windows? Or since when have you been able to run Xbox OS on a PlayStation or vice versa. Since you bought God of War of PS5, its my right for me to be able to run it on PC, Xbox, or even a potato because I own it??

 

There are cases where a vendor intentionally blocks software to run on other platforms. That is their right. Its not your software. But in those cases complains such as your at least hold some little water

 

Here though, Apple made modifications to Rosetta 2 that makes it executable in Linux environment. Its like a popular software (that is very capable in what it does) now being available on another OS. How is this so hard for you to comprehend is beyond me

59 minutes ago, mr moose said:

For the last time,  when the title literally reads "apple will allow Linux VMS to run intel apps",  the first thing that came to my mind was what right did they have in the first place to not allow it?  What right does any hardware maker have to stop me from running software I have the "license" to run?  If that concept is too hard to understand without conflating it with a myriad of unrelated conditions then there really is no hope for consumers.     This has nothing to do with being only about apple or being about rosetta.   It is literally a just meandering thought that was spawned by the title.  If running intel apps on apple M1 hardware is not a problem then the title is erroneous,  but if there is a problem then it is reflective of current corporate tech attitudes towards consumers and heaven help any poor soul who doesn't see a problem with that.

The title is disingenuous at best. Multiple people have already pointed that out. What is supposed to be was "Apple releases Rosetta 2 for Linux" somehow turned into "Apple allows Rosetta 2 to run on Linux". But you continued to ignore that and you cant use that anymore as a reason for your "opinion"

 

The rest of your post, I already explained above. If you still cant comprehend, or if you still cant help it but try to spread some disinformation campaign on how Apple was artificially limiting this and somehow it was always your non-existent right as user to run anything anywhere, then I have no words for you

[Spindel]

Just a side note, that I have said in other threads, but it's worth to be said again since the experience with AS Macs is very limited on this forum. 

 

Rosetta works really well and for "normal" apps that most people use for work etc you in most cases do not know that you are running the app through rosetta in day to day usage unless you look in the activity monitor. Main thing I have noticed with apps that I have used both trough rosetta and later when they have become native is that the RAM usage drops significantly with native apps under MacOS. 

 

Of course if you use apps that pins one or many cores for longer periods of times (like CPU rendering, games or benchmarks) there is a noticeable performance penalty.

 

I'm talking about stuff like CAD software, office suite (nowadays MS office is native but it wasn't in the beginning so I've used it both native and rosetta and also "benchmarked" it with my obscene excel sheets from work), generally applications for all kinds of things.

 

So that this is coming to Linux (at least in VMs) is great for people that might also run a Linux VM for some specific software.  

[mr moose]

14 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Says the person who wrote an entire paragraph addressing a single line that constituted less than 10% of my complete post (see below)

Stop pretending like I only wrote something to make fun of you and never actually explained things properly. Your entire paragraph rant is rendered moot considering that I delicately explained to you in the previous post and I'm continuing to explain to you in this post

 

Your postulations are pretty stupid, tbh. Its seems like you have complete lack of understanding how things worked in the entire industry for decades, and pretending like this some newfound revelation

 

Since when were you able to run Windows exe on Mac or mac dmg/pkg files on windows? Or since when have you been able to run Xbox OS on a PlayStation or vice versa. Since you bought God of War of PS5, its my right for me to be able to run it on PC, Xbox, or even a potato because I own it??

 

There are cases where a vendor intentionally blocks software to run on other platforms. That is their right. Its not your software. But in those cases complains such as your at least hold some little water

 

Here though, Apple made modifications to Rosetta 2 that makes it executable in Linux environment. Its like a popular software (that is very capable in what it does) now being available on another OS. How is this so hard for you to comprehend is beyond me

The title is disingenuous at best. Multiple people have already pointed that out. What is supposed to be was "Apple releases Rosetta 2 for Linux" somehow turned into "Apple allows Rosetta 2 to run on Linux". But you continued to ignore that and you cant use that anymore as a reason for your "opinion"

 

The rest of your post, I already explained above. If you still cant comprehend, or if you still cant help it but try to spread some disinformation campaign on how Apple was artificially limiting this and somehow it was always your non-existent right as user to run anything anywhere, then I have no words for you

 

Whatever dude,  you are literally ignoring the bulk of my post to refute an issue that doesn't exist.

 

 

[RedRound2]

On 6/11/2022 at 9:01 AM, mr moose said:

Whatever dude,  you are literally ignoring the bulk of my post to refute an issue that doesn't exist.

"Refute an issue that doesn't exist". Literally, you created the issue that never existed. Apple nor anyone else are forced to spend development time on something they don't want to do. I have a software that's only on the Mac. And I have given you as a user to use it. That does not suddenly mean that you as a user can force me to make that software available on Windows, android or even Windows 95 because you demanded it. That would really be a shitty world to live in as a developer.

 

If I do make it available on other platforms, be thankful about it -- so at least it will encourage me to do the same in the future, just like how Apple released Rosetta 2 for Linux and other ARM based silicon

 

Which bulk? You were wrong and just admit it and move on. Your preconceived notions of Apple made you jump into some dumb conclusion. As someone else said, when has there ever been a productive or useful opinion from you in Apple related thread?

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

"Refute an issue that doesn't exist". Literally, you created the issue that never existed.

Nope that was when you addressed my posts as pointless hate but then never addressed anything I actually said.

2 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Apple nor anyone else are forced to spend development time on something they don't want to do. I have a software that's only on the Mac. And I have given you as a user to use it. That does not suddenly mean that you as a user can force me to make that software available on Windows, android or even Windows 95 because you demanded it. That would really be a shitty world to live in as a developer.

 

If I do make it available on other platforms, be thankful about it -- so at least it will encourage me to do the same in the future, just like how Apple released Rosetta 2 for Linux and other ARM based silicon

 

Which bulk? You were wrong and just admit it and move on. Your preconceived notions of Apple made you jump into some dumb conclusion. As someone else said, when has there ever been a productive or useful opinion from you in Apple related thread?

 

Maybe you should read my posts before trying so hard.   Not only did I not say apple did anything bad, but my two examples were using other companies and I agreed if MS did it with software that they would be just as bad.    And that's on top of explaining that my postulations were about the title and the immediate things it could mean. 

 

Seriously, you really need to learn how to deal with other people having an opinion rather than call them haters every time you get personally offended. You really need to get that "everyone hates apple" reasoning out of your mindset.

[RedRound2]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

Nope that was when you addressed my posts as pointless hate but then never addressed anything I actually said.

I cant help you if you dont understand 90% of both my replies that carefully went over explaining to you what is going on.

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

Maybe you should read my posts before trying so hard.   Not only did I not say apple did anything bad, but my two examples were using other companies and I agreed if MS did it with software that they would be just as bad.    And that's on top of explaining that my postulations were about the title and the immediate things it could mean. 

Here exhibits below

 

On 6/8/2022 at 4:40 PM, mr moose said:

I need a license to run software I own on a CPU I have purchased?  Sad sad world indeed.

On 6/9/2022 at 4:12 PM, mr moose said:

I'm saying the concept that  a hardware maker can and does restrict what software you run on it is anti consumer.  You don;t seem to care, good for you,  but this sort of practice is not going any place good. 

 

It's an artificial barrier. 

While you didn't say verbatim, that is clearly what you were implying with your initial posts. 

 

And then you justify yourself by saying that any company does it, its bad. This literally how the entire software eco-system works!

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

Seriously, you really need to learn how to deal with other people having an opinion rather than call them haters every time you get personally offended. You really need to get that "everyone hates apple" reasoning out of your mindset.

Opinions are different things and I respect it. Yours was straight up misinformation, giving people who dont follow this stuff as closely an impression of a completely different story. 

Lol, no. Apple threads have become more reasonable in this forum these days as there are definitely more than handful of people who actually know what they're talking about and stick up to troll posts that *certain* people always indulge into (a few people come into my mind). Go read my replies to people with genuine questions and curiosity and my tone is entirely different. 

[mr moose]

20 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

I cant help you if you dont understand 90% of both my replies that carefully went over explaining to you what is going on.

Here exhibits below

Your careful replies were explaining things I never made claims about.

 

20 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

While you didn't say verbatim, that is clearly what you were implying with your initial posts. 

Not only didn't I say it verbatim, but I didn't say what you claim at all.

20 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

And then you justify yourself by saying that any company does it, its bad. This literally how the entire software eco-system works!

This sentence proves you didn't read any of my posts.

 

20 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Opinions are different things and I respect it. Yours was straight up misinformation, giving people who dont follow this stuff as closely an impression of a completely different story. 

Please show me the misinformation in the simple postulation that a hardware company preventing an end user from running their own software is a bad concept.

 

20 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Lol, no. Apple threads have become more reasonable in this forum these days as there are definitely more than handful of people who actually know what they're talking about and stick up to troll posts that *certain* people always indulge into (a few people come into my mind). Go read my replies to people with genuine questions and curiosity and my tone is entirely different. 

 

So you actually admit here your tone with me is because you think I am a troll.   Again if that's why you are arguing then choose to put me on your ignore list.  As all you have done is refute things you agree I didn't say, accuse me of a motive I don't have and then call me a troll.

 

[WolframaticAlpha]

Looks like I have no excuses to not jump on the M1 bandwagon. Seriously though, this was all I was asking. I do wonder if they will be shipping a dedicated X server for Linux.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

Looks like I have no excuses to not jump on the M1 bandwagon

If apple are serious about their repair strategy moving forward and they are comparable to any other laptop (that is quality/price) then I might be looking at them too. 

[Vishera]

26 minutes ago, mr moose said:

If apple are serious about their repair strategy moving forward and they are comparable to any other laptop (that is quality/price) then I might be looking at them too. 

The biggest issue is the closed platform of the M1,

You are pretty much limited to the Apple iGPU and the hardware that Apple allows you to use.

If Apple does a d!ick move you are pretty much screwed.

[igormp]

On 6/9/2022 at 9:00 AM, Paul Thexton said:

The distinction between Rosetta2 and other options will be that it's tailored specifically for the hardware and can take advantage of the memory switching modes which allow for faster performance than other options such as the emulation currently available on Windows ARM. Also I'd be surprised if other open source options on Linux don't eventually catch up and also take advantage of M* chips where possible.

I bet fex or box86 will soon catch up.

 

Also, some relevant twitter threads/links with info about that and testing in graviton instances:

 

 

https://threedots.ovh/blog/2022/06/quick-look-at-rosetta-on-linux/

[Paul Thexton]

3 minutes ago, igormp said:

I bet fex or box86 will soon catch up.

Yep that's what I'm betting on. Apple produced a good SOC with the M1, but some of the stuff people were spouting re: M1 having some kind of Apple proprietary magic in it that made Rosetta2 work so well were always way wide of the mark... There was no magic or proprietary stuff in it, just a well engineered combined hw/sw solution.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, Vishera said:

The biggest issue is the closed platform of the M1,

You are pretty much limited to the Apple iGPU and the hardware that Apple allows you to use.

If Apple does a d!ick move you are pretty much screwed.

I've just started to learn Ruby,  I use linux because it's free not because I enjoy the experience, ruby doesn't run too well under windows but runs quite well on mac.  Hopefully by the time I am ready to move on to some more serious coding and buy a decent a machine for it we will know more about how it all performs on M1 and how macs in general are panning out from a right to repair position.

[RedRound2]

8 hours ago, mr moose said:

Please show me the misinformation in the simple postulation that a hardware company preventing an end user from running their own software is a bad concept.

When was Rosetta 2 your own software? 

[WolframaticAlpha]

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

If apple are serious about their repair strategy moving forward and they are comparable to any other laptop (that is quality/price) then I might be looking at them too. 

While I do consider repairability/upgradeability to be extremely important, since I typically only buy thin and lights, and unless I buy a latitude or an expensive thinkpad, the repair options in the PC market are already very slim.

 

In the end, while my laptop is still not very old (2is years), if they keep this feature,  the Mac is going to be my top choice, since for me perf+battery life > repairability.

 

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

I've just started to learn Ruby,  I use linux because it's free not because I enjoy the experience, ruby doesn't run too well under windows but runs quite well on mac.  Hopefully by the time I am ready to move on to some more serious coding and buy a decent a machine for it we will know more about how it all performs on M1 and how macs in general are panning out from a right to repair position.

Are you learning ror or just Ruby? Because while RoR does truly suck on windows, core Ruby isn't that much worse.

 

You might have had an old version of Ruby installed since the performance difference between Ruby 3(which came out in 2021) is literally insane(3x as compared to 2.0.0 and 10-25% faster than 2.7.x)

 

Also, if you were using a framework or library that moved from 2.x features to 3.x features(eg fibers which are very cool for parallelism) when you switched to Linux/Mac as compared to windows.

 

Apart from the occasional gem failing, I really haven't heard/experienced Ruby being bad on windows.

[leadeater]

9 hours ago, Paul Thexton said:

Yep that's what I'm betting on. Apple produced a good SOC with the M1, but some of the stuff people were spouting re: M1 having some kind of Apple proprietary magic in it that made Rosetta2 work so well were always way wide of the mark... There was no magic or proprietary stuff in it, just a well engineered combined hw/sw solution.

Well if TSO really is only found in the Nvidia and Fujitsu SoCs then that is still quite unique. It's not like anyone is actively using either of those SoCs in a tablet or laptop, especially the A64fx heh. Would be a beast of a laptop if it did have the A64fx though 

 

In case people didn't manage to click through and see GB5 on Amazon EC2 without TSO is 745/1460 vs native ARM 1064/2080. M1 Rosetta 2 1297/6012 vs native 1713/7434. So without TSO reduction of 43%/42% vs with TSO 32%/23%, TSO does seem to make a reasonable difference.

 

Would have to compare the above to other ARM devices and x86 translations though.

 

Also the Myth statement itself is misleading, people were saying only Apple/M1 had TSO because it's the only device people could get hands on with it. Unless of course that information is also wrong and more than just those stated in the Tweet have it. Also good luck anyone getting a ARM 8.7 SoC or device heh.

[hishnash]

9 hours ago, Vishera said:

The biggest issue is the closed platform of the M1,

 

This is not true at all, Botha t a hardware and at a software level these devices are not closed platforms. There are some default settings enabled but any admin level user can turn these off. You can modify your kernel (much easier to do than on windows) you can boot third party operating systems apple even put active work into making this easier for linux to boot.   

Other GPU vendors are free to write drivers, for them to be of use you would need to disable SIP so that these drivers could inject themselves into all running apps reading all data in every app (that is how GPU drivers work) but you can do that if you want to do that. 

I think a lot of people think macOS is iOS! it is not!! in many ways macOS is much much more open a platform than windows being unix based, having an open source kennel it much easier to modify as the vast majority of it is built up out of tiny little tools (many of which are also open source) so if you need to make changes you can do this.. What macOS does not do is provide lot and lots of UI configuration panels so if you want to do somthign more advanced you will end up going to the terminal/editing a text config file rather than using a regedit or somthing as you would in windows.  But that does not mean it's more locked down as you can do all these modifications. 

 

[hishnash]

9 hours ago, Paul Thexton said:

There was no magic or proprietary stuff in it, just a well engineered combined hw/sw solution.

Having some of the best minds when it comes to low level compiler optimisation must help apple, they have been the leading force behind LLVM all these years, even intel have now given up trying to compete and are just telling people to use LLVM.  

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

When was Rosetta 2 your own software? 

I never said it was, this whole thread the only thing I have claimed is that when a title says "X will allow", the premise follows that X can also disallow,  and that should never be the case for hardware makers.  I really don't know how you or any of the others managed to take that one simple concept and screw it into the mess of licensing and apple hate that you did.

 

 

4 hours ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

While I do consider repairability/upgradeability to be extremely important, since I typically only buy thin and lights, and unless I buy a latitude or an expensive thinkpad, the repair options in the PC market are already very slim.

 

In the end, while my laptop is still not very old (2is years), if they keep this feature,  the Mac is going to be my top choice, since for me perf+battery life > repairability.

Every laptop I have owned to date (bar 1) has allowed me to change out ram, hdd, m.2.  All have been able to be easily opened and cleaned by myself without special tools or risk of breaking anything.    Given the nature of hardware companies to glue everything together this is becoming harder and harder to do and so is something I am very weary of.

 

4 hours ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

Are you learning ror or just Ruby? Because while RoR does truly suck on windows, core Ruby isn't that much worse.

 

You might have had an old version of Ruby installed since the performance difference between Ruby 3(which came out in 2021) is literally insane(3x as compared to 2.0.0 and 10-25% faster than 2.7.x)

 

Also, if you were using a framework or library that moved from 2.x features to 3.x features(eg fibers which are very cool for parallelism) when you switched to Linux/Mac as compared to windows.

 

Apart from the occasional gem failing, I really haven't heard/experienced Ruby being bad on windows.

I have a guy teaching me and he is using macs so I am not sure which it is, IRB is what is run in command line.   This guy not only codes himself but overseas a team of programmers at a large software company so I believe him when he tells these things.  It might just be specific to the version he uses or it might be something more specific to command line interface.  @hishnash might know better.