[Updated] Apple  WWDC 2022 - What was announced and stuff

[tim0901]

4 hours ago, Roswell said:

This is all anecdotal. Let's take that flawed logic away and ask a simple question with objectively factual answers:

 

What does a touchscreen laptop achieve that the enormous touchpad on a MacBook doesn't? The only argument I can fathom is people using it with a stylus for art purposes. Do the 0.5% of laptop users that also happen to be artists justify the significant costs of foisting that feature upon the other 99.5% of users that will never benefit?

Well yes, this entire debate is about the personal preference of having a touch screen or not. You can talk about it being an objectively inferior input device or whatever and you're not wrong. Nobody is saying that a touch screen is bettter than a trackpad. Literally nobody. But that doesn't change the fact that some people like having it. There's this thing called a preference. Some people like to have a touch screen on their laptop and they are legitimate users too. Their opinions matter just as much as yours or mine - you can't just throw other people's opinions away because you've decided that "I like it" is flawed logic. That's gatekeeping at its finest.

 

What "objectively factual" statement I can make is that "99.5% of users that will never benefit" is not remotely an "objectively factual" statement at all and that it is in fact a bullshit statistic that you (or someone in this thread - I really can't be bothered to look) has pulled out of their arse. If you want to talk "objective facts" about the number of people who use the touch-screens on their laptops then go ahead - go find me a reliable source of information and prove it. I'd actually be fascinated to see such numbers myself. But don't go making up your own statistics and claiming they are "objectively factual answers" to try and win an argument.

[Roswell]

1 hour ago, tim0901 said:

Well yes, this entire debate is about the personal preference of having a touch screen or not. You can talk about it being an objectively inferior input device or whatever and you're not wrong. Nobody is saying that a touch screen is bettter than a trackpad. Literally nobody. But that doesn't change the fact that some people like having it. There's this thing called a preference. Some people like to have a touch screen on their laptop and they are legitimate users too. Their opinions matter just as much as yours or mine - you can't just throw other people's opinions away because you've decided that "I like it" is flawed logic. That's gatekeeping at its finest.

 

What "objectively factual" statement I can make is that "99.5% of users that will never benefit" is not remotely an "objectively factual" statement at all and that it is in fact a bullshit statistic that you (or someone in this thread - I really can't be bothered to look) has pulled out of their arse. If you want to talk "objective facts" about the number of people who use the touch-screens on their laptops then go ahead - go find me a reliable source of information and prove it. I'd actually be fascinated to see such numbers myself. But don't go making up your own statistics and claiming they are "objectively factual answers" to try and win an argument.

I never claimed it to be factual. I’m asking if you have any examples of touchscreens providing a superior experience to touchpads outside of the niche artist base.

 

If you don’t, then it’s quite obvious why they haven’t added them. 

[Quackers101]

7 hours ago, tim0901 said:

Every single person I know that has owned a touch-enabled laptop has told me they could never go back - and these aren't non-techy people.

depends on a lot of factors, I would think it would be nice to have an Ipad mode, and if the OS is good for that and the touch is any good.

but if that is that good for the laptop to be used this way? like heat, performance, cost, and what happens with the other side like the keyboard etc. also yeah, the size if good to hold and use as an "ipad".

[Kisai]

14 hours ago, tim0901 said:

Every single person I know that has owned a touch-enabled laptop has told me they could never go back - and these aren't non-techy people.

 

It also works in reverse where if you are used to how the iPad or iPhone touch works, and you plug in a keyboard, suddenly that extra effort to move the hand from the keyboard to the screen becomes obnoxious and you'd rather use the soft keyboard.

 

Everyone I've seen at the office who had a touch-laptop, didn't use the touch part. Nothing they use (save for the Chinese guy using it for Chinese) was improved by using the touch screen. Objectively, touch is an incredibly poor experience on Windows, because a lot of software requires both mouse buttons. On the Mac the situation is different, as everything since the 80's was designed around a SINGLE mouse button, and thus touch is easier to retroactively have available. But that said, software (eg Adobe) that is "consistant" between MacOS and Windows, due to the use of propietary in-house UI toolkits, have no support for using touch this way.

 

That's why artists need a stylus. They aren't going to settle for "finger-paint". But this is also why the stylus on earlier "tablet pc" designs was a mistake, because all it did was act as a mouse button. Pressure-sensitive is a requirement, and nTrig (MS Surface) is just all around awful because it leverages the touch screen. Artists are told to avoid nTrig if they are doing any serious work. 

 

Where as like the iPad Pro stylus, on an iPad, is well suited to doing cartoony work. It's still not Wacom-Cintiq levels of accuracy. But this is also why "touch" sometimes becomes useful, because it's easier for the artist to use the stylus with one hand and touch with the other than put the stylus down to use the mouse to switch tools.

 

[Video Beagle]

21 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I guess it's good for future games, but will such games even be made?

I really feel there's something "big" in apple gaming on the horizon...nothing I can point to as evidence...and I'm certainly not the tech level person as you and many in the thread are..it just feels like there's a lot of moving pieces that there's something right out of view about to happen.

[Paul Thexton]

21 hours ago, Paul Thexton said:

Grid: Legends is getting a port from Feral Interactive as well, but there was no indication of whether they're using Metal 2 for that or are already working on a Metal 3 version.

Feral are keeping their cards close to their chest re: implementation details. Which seems pretty weird to me, but I guess that's their prerogative given they may at some point decide to pivot on what technologies they're using

 

[Video Beagle]

18 hours ago, Kisai said:

Hmm, not exactly.

 

A convertable laptop (one that you can flip the screen around) 

Is not a bad idea in principle. In practice however these convertible laptops only have one niche market: Artists.

 

Even then, only Wacom models with a stylus are even useful as an art tool. Sure, an iPad is functional as an Art Tablet, but it's not something you can really draw $1000 commissions on, just a lot of quick $5

Not gonna lie, I'd love an apple device that could work like this...switch between regular OS and like iPad OS by flipping it around....

I have 0 use for such a thing, It's more gimmick than functional...but it just feels like such a sci-fi device that I just want something like it.

[leadeater]

8 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

Not gonna lie, I'd love an apple device that could work like this...switch between regular OS and like iPad OS by flipping it around....

I have 0 use for such a thing, It's more gimmick than functional...but it just feels like such a sci-fi device that I just want something like it.

If the MacBook Air wasn't currently supposed to be the cheaper MacBook then it would be the perfect product line for that. Bring back the straight MacBook and do something cool like this with the Air.

 

If the Air was both an iPad and a MacBook that would be sweet, since M1 it seems like that is possible on the hardware side with zero drawbacks. Come on Apple be brave.

[Obioban]

1 hour ago, Video Beagle said:

I really feel there's something "big" in apple gaming on the horizon...nothing I can point to as evidence...and I'm certainly not the tech level person as you and many in the thread are..it just feels like there's a lot of moving pieces that there's something right out of view about to happen.

Yep, there's so much smoke swirling that it feels there must be a fire somewhere.

 

Personally, I'd love to be able to ditch my gaming PC.

[captain_to_fire]

2 hours ago, Video Beagle said:

Not gonna lie, I'd love an apple device that could work like this...switch between regular OS and like iPad OS by flipping it around....

I have 0 use for such a thing, It's more gimmick than functional...but it just feels like such a sci-fi device that I just want something like it.

IMO, it would’ve been better if Apple rebranded the 13” MBP as the M2 MacBook which is reminiscent of the 2008 Core 2 Duo MacBook. The design similarities are already there.

Plus the 13” MBP is actually a much worse laptop than the M2 MacBook Air.

• no MagSafe
• No 1080p webcam
• Insignificant battery differences with the M2 MBA
• Not significant performance despite of the fan
• The touchbar is still there
• They’re both priced the same when you go for the higher tier
   

 

[Paul Thexton]

The 13" MBP confuses me. I can only think that Apple feels there's a big enough market of users out there who want to keep the touch bar.

 

The touch bar had a lot of unfulfilled potential, it should have been as configurable as a Stream Deck, but instead it required App developers to add controls to it ... shame.

[Obioban]

3 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

The 13" MBP confuses me. I can only think that Apple feels there's a big enough market of users out there who want to keep the touch bar.

 

The touch bar had a lot of unfulfilled potential, it should have been as configurable as a Stream Deck, but instead it required App developers to add controls to it ... shame.

Apple said in the keynote that it's their 2nd best selling laptop (after the Air).

 

I suspect that's why it still exists... even though that sounds like more of a reason to kill it, to me, as I can't see a reason anyone should buy it over an Air/14" Pro.

[captain_to_fire]

2 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

The 13" MBP confuses me. I can only think that Apple feels there's a big enough market of users out there who want to keep the touch bar.

 

The touch bar had a lot of unfulfilled potential, it should have been as configurable as a Stream Deck, but instead it required App developers to add controls to it ... shame.

I think the reason why Apple kept the 13” MBP’s old design is because of supply chain issues related to Covid-19 lockdowns in China and chip shortages, perhaps they still have a lot of 13” MBP chasis lying around lol. For them to redesign the 13” MBP would just stifle their supply chain even more. I doubt that there are a lot of people who loves the touchbar as it was considered one of the unnecessary features trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist like the fragile butterfly key switches. As I’ve said, the 13” should’ve been renamed as the “M2 MacBook” just like in 2008.

[rikitikitavi]

13 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

The touch bar had a lot of unfulfilled potential, it should have been as configurable as a Stream Deck, but instead it required App developers to add controls to it ... shame.

 

Touch bar should have had 3D touch (iPhone) / force touch to avoid accidental clicks and give haptic feedback - maybe then it would not have been a flop.

 

13 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

The 13" MBP confuses me. I can only think that Apple feels there's a big enough market of users out there who want to keep the touch bar.

 

I assume that maybe Pro13’s slight display/audio advantage makes it still a selling point… or the fear-mongering of throttling (unless it’s just the Pro badge and touchBar, the RGB of MacWorld that make the sell lol).

[Obioban]

1 hour ago, rikitikitavi said:

I assume that maybe Pro13’s slight display/audio advantage makes it still a selling point… or the fear-mongering of throttling (unless it’s just the Pro badge and touchBar, the RGB of MacWorld that make the sell lol).

It now has a worse screen than the (M2) Air, and probably worse speakers as well (TBD, but Apple speaker team has been doing great things recently).

 

M1 Air only throttled at extended 100% load of the GPU and CPU, over an extended time, and even then barely lose performance. I guess it's possible the M2 will be worse for that (my guess is no), but anyone concerned about the 5-10% performance difference after throttling kicks in (most people never) really should be getting a Pro or Max chip-- not the base M1/2.

[saltycaramel]

1 hour ago, Obioban said:

It now has a worse screen than the (M2) Air,

 

Barely...the M2 Air just added a 64-pixel-tall strip of display around the notch...it didn't make the jump to 264ppi, unlike the 14"/16" MBPs last fall, it's still a 224ppi display. All the other specs (500nit, P3, TrueTone) are the same as the M2 MBP. 

 

Incidentally next spring the display of the (just confirmed by Ross Young) 14.1" M2 iPad Pro with miniLED and 264ppi will run circles around the 224ppi 13.6" M2 Air display without miniLED...so even in this new era there will be a rock-paper-scissor dynamic in the choice between MacBook Air vs iPad Pro+Keyboard_case...you can get macOS with a lesser screen or iPadOS with the superior screen (and touch/pencil/FaceID/LiDAR/iPhone_grade_cameras)...the difference being this time around iPadOS has got Stage Manager, actual external display support, a kinda competent file manager, kinda competent apps with desktop-style toolbars. And this time around the iPad Pro comes in a bigger 14.1" size too. 

 

 

edit: I forgot to add that on top of all this the 14.1" iPad Pro will be VRR 24-120Hz and the MacBook Air is 60Hz

[exoticspice]

9 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

 

Barely...the M2 Air just added a 64-pixel-tall strip of display around the notch...it didn't make the jump to 264ppi, unlike the 14"/16" MBPs last fall, it's still a 224ppi display. All the other specs (500nit, P3, TrueTone) are the same as the M2 MBP. 

 

Incidentally next spring the display of the (just confirmed by Ross Young) 14.1" M2 iPad Pro with miniLED and 264ppi will run circles around the 224ppi 13.6" M2 Air display without miniLED...so even in this new era there will be a rock-paper-scissor dynamic in the choice between MacBook Air vs iPad Pro+Keyboard_case...you can get macOS with a lesser screen or iPadOS with the superior screen (and touch/pencil/FaceID/LiDAR/iPhone_grade_cameras)...the difference being this time around iPadOS has got Stage Manager, actual external display support, a kinda competent file manager, kinda competent apps with desktop-style toolbars. And this time around the iPad Pro comes in a bigger 14.1" size too. 

 

 

edit: I forgot to add that on top of all this the 14.1" iPad Pro will be VRR 24-120Hz and the MacBook Air is 60Hz

But the iPad Pro 14.1" will not compete with the M2 MBA 13". The current model 12.9" model is $1099 and the Magic Keyboard it becomes more than the M2 Air. It's more likely to compete with the M1 Pro 14" MBP.

The 14.1" also be more expensive than the 12.9" with a new and pricer Magic KeyBoard case.

 

The M2 Air does offer more ports than the current iPad Pro 12.9". Apple is also working on a 12" MacBook and 15" MBA. That 15" model will entice a lot of people. 

 

[rikitikitavi]

4 hours ago, exoticspice said:

But the iPad Pro 14.1" will not compete with the M2 MBA 13". The current model 12.9" model is $1099 and the Magic Keyboard it becomes more than the M2 Air. It's more likely to compete with the M1 Pro 14" MBP.

The 14.1" also be more expensive than the 12.9" with a new and pricer Magic KeyBoard case.

 

The M2 Air does offer more ports than the current iPad Pro 12.9". Apple is also working on a 12" MacBook and 15" MBA. That 15" model will entice a lot of people. 

iPads do not compete with MBPs. If anything they can only compete with the bottom lineup MBs like Air and only in certain segment ('casual segment' if I must say).

Price is not the main criterion here.

[saltycaramel]

 

Is it me or macOS (and iOS as well) is getting super gaming-controller-friendly?

A dedicated system settings pane?

What’s the long game Apple is playing here?

Just “nice to have” or something bigger?

[Video Beagle]

40 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

Is it me or macOS (and iOS as well) is getting super gaming-controller-friendly?

A dedicated system settings pane?

What’s the long game Apple is playing here?

Just “nice to have” or something bigger?

 

 

This is what I was saying above...just weird little bits here and there...nothing major...nothing you can point to really...just some new API's...controller support...new graphics powers.. it just "feels" like something is brewing.

 

Apple historically doesn't take gaming seriously, but they do take money seriously. And gaming is very much a gateway drug into computer ecosystems....so the logic is all there for _something_ to happen....

 

Like you said.. "Just “nice to have” or something bigger?"   Apple tends to never do stuff "just because"... they have plans...maybe those plans don't develop the way they hoped and they abanndon them and the public is just left going "what was the point of that?" but they're almost always a reason they do something.... shurg.

19 hours ago, captain_to_fire said:

IMO, it would’ve been better if Apple rebranded the 13” MBP as the M2 MacBook which is reminiscent of the 2008 Core 2 Duo MacBook. The design similarities are already there.

 

I just love the idea of flip the lid and it becomes a tablet....Again, I have no need for such a device, but it feels so futuristic to me.

[hishnash]

50 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

Apple historically doesn't take gaming seriously, but they do take money seriously. And gaming is very much a gateway drug into computer ecosystems....so the logic is all there for _something_ to happen....

 

So many things apple within apple due to a small number people having some focus, in fact most of what comes out of apple is not a direction set by C level but rather small teams playing around (apple can afford to have 90% of the R&D teams work on stuff that never ships).

Many projects inside apple will run for 5+ years at some point they will present them higher and higher up the chain until they hit thier respective C level (for a software dev this is 2 to 3 levels above them only. aka thier boss reports to someone who reports to Craig) something like the concept of shipping controller support needs Craig to say in a meeting at some point 'year we should support game controllers' the result of this might even mean the next person down in the chain from him spawn of a new team that then goes ahead and adds controller support, from that first statement very little communication will go up the chain gain to Craig.  Most communication will then be horizontal between team members on this controller team and Human interface, Core OS (for drivers) etc, to the most part if you reach out to someone in HIG saying i'm working on X they trust that you have permission to work on that and they will help you.

One key thing to remember is within the R&D teams at apple non of them (including high level staff) are paid bonuses based on sales of the products/features they work on bonuses at Appel are based on doing good work and apples economic perfomance as a hole. So people are not actively personally incentivised to push for projects that might have a $$ return. 

All this is to say most of what comes out of apple is not produced by some analyst looking at possible revenue. Im sure there are things that are driven like that but the vast majority of work is very detached from how it might make Apple money.

[hishnash]

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

Is it me or macOS (and iOS as well) is getting super gaming-controller-friendly?

 

The apis apple are providing are really good for this stuff as well.

 I think there might also be more willingness from console vendors to work with apple than there is for them to work with each other.  I can see Nintendo have no issue with sharing design/specs data sheets and even code with someone from apple who reaches out but I would be extremely surprised if they were to share that with MS or Sony let alone steam. 

 

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, hishnash said:

The apis apple are providing are really good for this stuff as well.

 I think there might also be more willingness from console vendors to work with apple than there is for them to work with each other.  I can see Nintendo have no issue with sharing design/specs data sheets and even code with someone from apple who reaches out but I would be extremely surprised if they were to share that with MS or Sony let alone steam. 

 

Considering that all console vendors have somehow standardized on a bluetooth protocol. Maybe the next thing will be a standard portable save game and game license system, where you can play any game on any platform, but only need to buy it on one of them. Transfer the savegame to another console and it copies the license with it as long as you logged into it with the same email (or better token.)

 

 

[Quackers101]

6 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

What’s the long game Apple is playing here?

mobile gaming, profit like an diablo immortal.

also how they have their own store, more PC types too? just pay them a good fee? .

[saltycaramel]

1 hour ago, Quackers101 said:

mobile gaming, profit like an diablo immortal.

also how they have their own store, more PC types too? just pay them a good fee? .

 

They’ve been playing that particular game (mobile gaming = huge profits) for a while.

 

The question is if they’re now willing to expand into AAA gaming as well or it will just be a “nice to have” here and there (just like their Apple TV+ streaming service, it’s not enough to be your one and only service, just a “nice to have” and added value to the service bundle).