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The question that's been asked a thousand times. Which 600 series headphone would fit me best?

Fosh612
6 minutes ago, OfficialTechSpace said:

That's scientifically impossible to my knowledge, but I'd love to believe that. My DAC/Amp measures cleaner than the headphones themselves, so anything beyond them could be chalked up to either placebo, or a colored DAC/Amp tonality. Tube amps on top of that add distortions.

I can’t claim to be an expert in amps and the electronics involved, but I can say I hear drastically different clarity when stepping up to nicer and nicer amplification. 
 

Not that more money means more better… but going from my brothers affordable schiit stack to my lyr 3, there is a noticeable improvement across the board. Is it worth the uptick in price, “no”, but it’s there. Then from that, my buddies setup costs closer to 4 grand, which again, certainly not “worth it”, but the improvements were almost as large once again, at least with the 6xx’s. Some of the others didn’t see as much improvement, and I still prefer Eikons on both my lyr 3 and my buddies setup, but you can hear noticeable differences from being driven differently. 
 

I can’t speak scientifically as I am not knowledge enough to, but I can say what I have experienced. 

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HD600/HD650/HD6xx are still very good headphones, both objectively and subjectively. Absolute best at their price? Probably not, but headphones preferences vary quite a bit, and regardless of price, they're pretty darn good.

 

Frequency response on the HD6** series headphones is very good. Most of them are a little shy on the low bass, and have a couple dips in the treble area (though they are fairly minor dips), but for the most part is pretty nice. Distortion in the low bass is pretty high, but that's the case with most dynamic drivers. Also, bass distortion tends to be pretty unoffensive. Tonally they are mostly "right", and that's the biggest factor and a factor that a lot of other popular headphones don't get right (DT990 being a good example). The fact that the HD6** series headphones still holds up as well as it does after all these years is a testament to the engineers that Sennheiser has (or had) working in their headphone division at the time.


The HD6** series headphones are, to my knowledge, quite expensive to manufacture. Selling them at $90 would be stupid. I don't see why this is a bang-for-buck race. There is lots of equipment that doesn't perform as well as you'd expect for the price, but still has characteristics that make it worthwhile at times. If you asked me,  planar magnetic headphones are probably what I'd suggest to someone looking for headphones in this price range, but that doesn't mean the Sennheisers aren't also a very good choice.

 

The HD 6xx, being the least costly, probably is the best choice since all of the headphones in this series are very similar. 

 

Any high-performance headphone amp should be almost indistinguishable from any other high-performance headphone amp. Some (BUT NOT ALL) tube amps have high distortion and high output impedance, which can have a noticeable impact, be it good or bad. That's not always the case, and I've designed tube amps that are very linear and are more or less audibly transparent. I'm certainly not the only one to do so.

 

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4 hours ago, LIGISTX said:

I can’t claim to be an expert in amps and the electronics involved, but I can say I hear drastically different clarity when stepping up to nicer and nicer amplification.

I'd like to see harder data. Blind test maybe? 

 

I've designed and tested a lot of amplifiers... unless they're intentionally a high-distortion design, this doesn't make a lot of sense. In most case, the higher-performing amps in the $200 class (Schiit, SMSL, Topping are all this) are dealing with distortion and noise components >100 dB below the fundamental. In many cases, even if you turned it up to extreme sound pressure levels, then notched out the fundamental, you still wouldn't be able to hear the distortion components, even in a silent room.

 

Of course, I've also played with some very badly designed tube amps (> 1% THD) that sound bloody fantastic, so there is always the issue of how numbers from the spectrum analyzer correlate to the real world...

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11 hours ago, H713 said:

HD600/HD650/HD6xx are still very good headphones, both objectively and subjectively. 

Unfortunately that's inaccurate. Narrow soundstage, three-blob imaging, and a veiled response leading to missing detail in the upper registers. Resolution is meh, and the top-end extension also suffers as a result of the darker tuning. I'm not sure in what way they excel, but please point it out. It's also possible to measure decent and still sound lifeless, which was my impression of the HD6XX. Still own one myself, and can verify anything being alleged in a matter of minutes.

11 hours ago, H713 said:

The HD6** series headphones are, to my knowledge, quite expensive to manufacture. Selling them at $90 would be stupid.

Then just as I said, they should be discontinued before they become a liability. As of now they're serving no purpose but confusing the uninitiated.

11 hours ago, H713 said:

The HD 6xx, being the least costly, probably is the best choice since all of the headphones in this series are very similar. 

Unless someone is very specifically looking for a warm headphone, with a darker tonality, doesn't care about the technical insufficiencies, and collects headphones as a hobby, the 600-series nearly as a whole can be forgotten (possibly excluding the HD600). They're not a good recommendation for anything else.

11 hours ago, H713 said:

planar magnetic headphones are probably what I'd suggest to someone looking for headphones in this price range, but that doesn't mean the Sennheisers aren't also a very good choice. 

 

Any high-performance headphone amp should be almost indistinguishable from any other high-performance headphone amp. Some (BUT NOT ALL) tube amps have high distortion and high output impedance, which can have a noticeable impact, be it good or bad. That's not always the case, and I've designed tube amps that are very linear and are more or less audibly transparent. I'm certainly not the only one to do so.

These last two points are precisely what I said. I love how people can come along, make false claims for half of the argument, then follow them up with comments eerily similar to my own, and then get all of the recognition ✅️.

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37 minutes ago, OfficialTechSpace said:

Unfortunately that's inaccurate. Narrow soundstage, three-blob imaging, and a veiled response leading to missing detail in the upper registers. Resolution is meh, and the top-end extension also suffers as a result of the darker tuning. 

In your subjective opinion. Not everyone agrees with that statement, and they remain very popular, even among those who own other high-performance headphones. Also, darker tuning is not necessarily a bad thing. There are a lot of people who would take darker tuning over bright tuning as it tends to be less fatiguing.

 

37 minutes ago, OfficialTechSpace said:

Then just as I said, they should be discontinued before they become a liability. As of now they're serving no purpose but confusing the uninitiated.

And all the other expensive headphones that perform far worse than the HD6** series? Based on your logic, one could argue that 80% of the headphones that cost more than $120 should be discontinued.

 

37 minutes ago, OfficialTechSpace said:

Unless someone is very specifically looking for a warm headphone, with a darker tonality, doesn't care about the technical insufficiencies, and collects headphones as a hobby, the 600-series as a whole can be forgotten. They're not a good recommendation for anything else.

You really haven't listed any technical issues thus far, just the same subjective reasons you don't like them.

 

37 minutes ago, OfficialTechSpace said:

These last two points are precisely what I said. I love how people can come along, make objectively false claims for half of the argument, then follow them up with comments eerily similar to my own, and then get all of the recognition ✅️.

None of what I said was objectively false. I made almost no subjective claims in my post (it's relatively rare that I do). The last point regarding amplifiers was a clarification because there seemed to be some question regarding the subject, and I figured I'd chime in, having designed, built, tested and modified no small number of amplifiers (I don't keep count) over the years. Re-read what you said and what I said - it's not quite the same. 

 

I think everyone understand that you think the HD6** series headphones are hot garbage. You're in the minority, like it or not.

 

 

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4 hours ago, OfficialTechSpace said:

Unfortunately that's inaccurate. Narrow soundstage, three-blob imaging, and a veiled response leading to missing detail in the upper registers. Resolution is meh, and the top-end extension also suffers as a result of the darker tuning. I'm not sure in what way they excel, but please point it out. It's also possible to measure decent and still sound lifeless, which was my impression of the HD6XX. Still own one myself, and can verify anything being alleged in a matter of minutes.

Then just as I said, they should be discontinued before they become a liability. As of now they're serving no purpose but confusing the uninitiated.

Unless someone is very specifically looking for a warm headphone, with a darker tonality, doesn't care about the technical insufficiencies, and collects headphones as a hobby, the 600-series nearly as a whole can be forgotten (possibly excluding the HD600). They're not a good recommendation for anything else.

These last two points are precisely what I said. I love how people can come along, make false claims for half of the argument, then follow them up with comments eerily similar to my own, and then get all of the recognition ✅️.

I'm on mobile don't feel like deleting all that stuff lol but Ik you don't like the 600 series. What makes you say the original 600 makes them worth it? The cost wouldn't matter too much. Even though value may not be great.

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4 hours ago, Fosh612 said:

I'm on mobile don't feel like deleting all that stuff lol but Ik you don't like the 600 series. What makes you say the original 600 makes them worth it? The cost wouldn't matter too much. Even though value may not be great.

They're just the most technically proficient out of the bunch. Soundstage is still laughably narrow, as it is on all of them, but it's the better 600-series variant. Slightly better tuning, imaging, and resolution also. A-tier by Crinacle's standards, but I'd still put it at a B. Still respectably higher than the others, which I'd rank as a C. At $400 it's still a bit expensive, but not overly. HiFiMan Edition XS is a much larger jump in quality, but $500. It's a younger, cheaper brother to the Ananda.

 

HD600-S3.thumb.jpg.8499cdbfafbeb5a69142209252cff777.jpgHD650-S2-Fresh-pads.thumb.jpg.4d095452af3c59de96f99b68fb6048bb.jpg1949157379_HD660S(1).thumb.jpg.00be244980fb34c8bca2296882e95439.jpg1b3dc93b7facac9a835f81fac1338749ef93be67.thumb.jpeg.e9a6922860f5dff169049ebad7f0711b.jpegAnanda.thumb.jpg.8f9726d7228a65e12be41eba638ac5f7.jpg

 

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3 hours ago, OfficialTechSpace said:

They're just the most technically proficient out of the bunch. Soundstage is still laughably narrow, as it is on all of them, but it's the better 600-series variant. Slightly better tuning, imaging, and resolution also. A-tier by Crinacle's standards, but I'd still put it at a B. Still respectably higher than the others, which I'd rank as a C. At $400 it's still a bit expensive, but not overly. HiFiMan Edition XS is a much larger jump in quality, but $500. It's a younger, cheaper brother to the Ananda.

 

HD600-S3.thumb.jpg.8499cdbfafbeb5a69142209252cff777.jpgHD650-S2-Fresh-pads.thumb.jpg.4d095452af3c59de96f99b68fb6048bb.jpg1949157379_HD660S(1).thumb.jpg.00be244980fb34c8bca2296882e95439.jpg1b3dc93b7facac9a835f81fac1338749ef93be67.thumb.jpeg.e9a6922860f5dff169049ebad7f0711b.jpegAnanda.thumb.jpg.8f9726d7228a65e12be41eba638ac5f7.jpg

 

I suppose I didn't mention I'm researching for prime day. 

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In the end, it all matters to preferences. Audio as a hobby is extremely objective, there are about 7 billion of human beings so about 14 billion ears and thus, everyone has their own tastes/preferences for audio. If you like this headphone A, then you like it, end of story.

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3 hours ago, CTR640 said:

In the end, it all matters to preferences. Audio as a hobby is extremely objective, there are about 7 billion of human beings so about 14 billion ears and thus, everyone has their own tastes/preferences for audio. If you like this headphone A, then you like it, end of story.

I don't get why people get so defensive about what they like or others like. I'm just curious about what most people like to help me out with my decision. 

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3 hours ago, CTR640 said:

In the end, it all matters to preferences. Audio as a hobby is extremely objective, there are about 7 billion of human beings so about 14 billion ears and thus, everyone has their own tastes/preferences for audio. If you like this headphone A, then you like it, end of story.

I don't recall stating this before but I recognized that you have used the amrion homes? Is it just a warmer dt 1990 pro or worse than that?

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15 minutes ago, Fosh612 said:

I don't get why people get so defensive about what they like or others like. I'm just curious about what most people like to help me out with my decision. 

Me neither and I'll never understand that. One may like the headphone A and other will like the headphone B and so what? I don't see any issue.

So what I can recommend: make a list of the cons and pros and what kind of sound signature does it have and make your decision.

All of that tiers list makes me depressed.

 

16 minutes ago, Fosh612 said:

I don't recall stating this before but I recognized that you have used the amrion homes? Is it just a warmer dt 1990 pro or worse than that?

Yes, I have the Amiron Home indeed and it's been my daily driver and after some while I pick up one of my other heaphones and sometimes it depends on my mood but the Amiron Home is the most used. it has a laidback sound and it doesn't fatigue at all. I've never tried the DT1990 before so can't tell anything about but the Amiron Home is a damn fine headphone for sure. For movies/series, I use it because of the cinematic audio. I can hardly describe it but it's a not a bad headphone at all. @Stahlmanncan share the same experiences. I mean, it was me who recommended him the Amiron Home 😛

DAC/AMPs:

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Headphones: Klipsch Heritage HP-3 Walnut, Meze 109 Pro, Beyerdynamic Amiron Home, Amiron Wireless Copper, Tygr 300R, DT880 600ohm Manufaktur, T90, Fidelio X2HR

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47 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

Me neither and I'll never understand that. One may like the headphone A and other will like the headphone B and so what? I don't see any issue.

So what I can recommend: make a list of the cons and pros and what kind of sound signature does it have and make your decision.

All of that tiers list makes me depressed.

 

Yes, I have the Amiron Home indeed and it's been my daily driver and after some while I pick up one of my other heaphones and sometimes it depends on my mood but the Amiron Home is the most used. it has a laidback sound and it doesn't fatigue at all. I've never tried the DT1990 before so can't tell anything about but the Amiron Home is a damn fine headphone for sure. For movies/series, I use it because of the cinematic audio. I can hardly describe it but it's a not a bad headphone at all. @Stahlmanncan share the same experiences. I mean, it was me who recommended him the Amiron Home 😛

I was putting this one on the list but people say it's not worth it. Still considering it if I can snag it for prime day times. 

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On 5/29/2022 at 5:56 PM, OfficialTechSpace said:

That's scientifically impossible to my knowledge, but I'd love to believe that. My DAC/Amp measures cleaner than the headphones themselves, so anything beyond them could be chalked up to either placebo, or a colored DAC/Amp tonality. Tube amps on top of that add distortions.

My question to you about the above is: What do you buy audio gear for? If it is for listening to music, and the better it sounds the better it is, why would you care about measurements. Saying it's placebo without trying for yourself doesn't make much sense in my opinion. If the sound is good and the electronics have the functionality you need, it really doesn't matter if the measurements are crap, or if the sound is coloured, distorted, etc.

 

In my experience, not what I read about or watched on YouTube, the 6XX punches WAY above price with good amplification. I define good amps as whatever has enough power and current to have absolute control over drivers. If they control the drivers to do stuff that measures bad but sounds good, I couldn't care less. I haven't come across really cheap amps that gave me a good sound out of these cans (maybe with the exception of the Asgard 3 when paired with a Bifrost 2).

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9 minutes ago, Fosh612 said:

I was putting this one on the list but people say it's not worth it. Still considering it if I can snag it for prime day times. 

Put it back on the list. The Amiron Home is heavily underrated but it's a very good headphone.

If my Amiron Home ever breaks, I'll simply buy it again.

DAC/AMPs:

Klipsch Heritage Headphone Amplifier

Headphones: Klipsch Heritage HP-3 Walnut, Meze 109 Pro, Beyerdynamic Amiron Home, Amiron Wireless Copper, Tygr 300R, DT880 600ohm Manufaktur, T90, Fidelio X2HR

CPU: Intel 4770, GPU: Asus RTX3080 TUF Gaming OC, Mobo: MSI Z87-G45, RAM: DDR3 16GB G.Skill, PC Case: Fractal Design R4 Black non-iglass, Monitor: BenQ GW2280

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34 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

Put it back on the list. The Amiron Home is heavily underrated but it's a very good headphone.

If my Amiron Home ever breaks, I'll simply buy it again.

Ok. The 6xx seem too tempting but not rlly for gaming which doesn't matter but if I can get an uograde for gaming AND music. That's a win. 

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Gotta love it when people can't accept advice for what it is. If you can't do that, don't ask. The reason why you ask more knowledgeable people to begin with is to get the answers you cannot find yourself. Once you get them, don't disagree with them or take sides like this is a war.

 

There are only two ways to measure a headphone. One is with a measurement rig, and the other is with your own ears. The measurement rig can help to better visualize the tonality, but everything else has to be done by ear. You're taking sides with people whom have not yet trained their ears to listen critically, all because what they're saying sounds more like what you'd like to hear.

 

Until they've written a detailed review as well, and can honestly explain every nuance using descriptive audio terminologies, take everything they say with very little consideration. Again, here's the review. Trying to throw out a life-jacket after a shipwreck here:

https://linustechtips.com/topic/1431503-vintage-for-a-premium-the-hd6xx-review-honest-impressions/

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22 minutes ago, OfficialTechSpace said:

Gotta love it when people can't accept advice for what it is. If you can't do that, don't ask. The reason why you ask more knowledgeable people to begin with is to get the answers you cannot find yourself. Once you get them, don't disagree with them or take sides like this is a war.

 

There are only two ways to measure a headphone. One is with a measurement rig, and the other is with your own ears. The measurement rig can help to better visualize the tonality, but everything else has to be done by ear. You're taking sides with people whom have not yet trained their ears to listen critically, all because what they're saying sounds more like what you'd like to hear.

 

Until they've written a detailed review as well, and can honestly explain every nuance using descriptive audio terminologies, take everything they say with very little consideration. Again, here's the review. Trying to throw out a life-jacket after a shipwreck here:

https://linustechtips.com/topic/1431503-vintage-for-a-premium-the-hd6xx-review-honest-impressions/

I just said it seems tempting based on what has been said about it. 

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1 hour ago, CTR640 said:

Put it back on the list. The Amiron Home is heavily underrated but it's a very good headphone.

If my Amiron Home ever breaks, I'll simply buy it again.

I've heard it has weird scaling with amps. Think a schiit stack would be ok?

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10 minutes ago, Fosh612 said:

I've heard it has weird scaling with amps. Think a schiit stack would be ok?

What do you mean? Like sibilance or weak? I've ran my Amiron Home using Fiio K5 Pro and Lake People G103S. Now with Klipsch amp and I also use it with my portable devices like smartphones and mp3-player and no issue.

 

You Schiity stack would do just fine, I don't see why not 😛 If you like warmer sound signature and laidback, you high likely will love the Amiron Home.

DAC/AMPs:

Klipsch Heritage Headphone Amplifier

Headphones: Klipsch Heritage HP-3 Walnut, Meze 109 Pro, Beyerdynamic Amiron Home, Amiron Wireless Copper, Tygr 300R, DT880 600ohm Manufaktur, T90, Fidelio X2HR

CPU: Intel 4770, GPU: Asus RTX3080 TUF Gaming OC, Mobo: MSI Z87-G45, RAM: DDR3 16GB G.Skill, PC Case: Fractal Design R4 Black non-iglass, Monitor: BenQ GW2280

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2 hours ago, CTR640 said:

What do you mean? Like sibilance or weak? I've ran my Amiron Home using Fiio K5 Pro and Lake People G103S. Now with Klipsch amp and I also use it with my portable devices like smartphones and mp3-player and no issue.

 

You Schiity stack would do just fine, I don't see why not 😛 If you like warmer sound signature and laidback, you high likely will love the Amiron Home.

That's what ive figured. Idk what ppl meant. Ig shouty 

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8 minutes ago, Fosh612 said:

That's what ive figured. Idk what ppl meant. Ig shouty 

I don't even know what the heck shouty means 😕 Even Stahlmann got confused lol

It's not the people who said that, it's said by one of the reviewers that ranked the Amiron Home D-tier. Audio is meant to enjoy.

There is no such thing as perfect headphones.

 

The best is to take words from regular owners because they usually are honest and will share the pros and cons and most importantly, they own the actual headphones.

DAC/AMPs:

Klipsch Heritage Headphone Amplifier

Headphones: Klipsch Heritage HP-3 Walnut, Meze 109 Pro, Beyerdynamic Amiron Home, Amiron Wireless Copper, Tygr 300R, DT880 600ohm Manufaktur, T90, Fidelio X2HR

CPU: Intel 4770, GPU: Asus RTX3080 TUF Gaming OC, Mobo: MSI Z87-G45, RAM: DDR3 16GB G.Skill, PC Case: Fractal Design R4 Black non-iglass, Monitor: BenQ GW2280

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43 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

I don't even know what the heck shouty means 😕 Even Stahlmann got confused lol

It's not the people who said that, it's said by one of the reviewers that ranked the Amiron Home D-tier.

It's a common descriptive audio terminology that is easily defined. It's used by more people than just Crinacle, that just-so-happened to be one of the descriptive terms that he used to describe the Amiron Home. A bloated and shouty headphone. 

 

Bloat refers to the overemphasis in the response, along with generally masking the surrounding frequencies and muddying up the mix. Shout refers to a more piercing unpleasantry, sounding as though that range is being shouted over the rest of the mix.

43 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

The best is to take words from regular owners because they usually are honest and will share the pros and cons and most importantly, they own the actual headphones.

Being a regular owner doesn't mean anything. That's like saying "I drive a Ford Pinto, it's a great car. Best to listen to the owners, not the experienced critics". Same could be said for someone who's the regular owner of a Razer gaming headset, and recommends them. If anything, owning them and using them gives you less of a right to speak on them, because it says a lot about your critical listening ability. 

 

That's not to say that everyone has trained their ears to understand these insufficiencies, but they do exist, and that's why the people that do understand them are the ones that're supposed to be recommending for or against them.

[Main Desktop]

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 5600X  GPU: EVGA RTX 3070 Ti (FTW3 Ultra)  MOBO: MSI Gaming Pro Carbon (X470)  RAM: G.SKILL Ripjaws V DDR4-3600 CL16 (2x8GB)

COOLER: Arctic LiquidFreezer II 280 STORAGE: G.SKILL Phoenix FTL 240GB SSD, Crucial MX500 1TB SSD, Toshiba 2TB HDD, Seagate 4TB HDD

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MOUSE: Logitech G502 HERO (wired)  KEYBOARD: Rosewill K81 RGB (Kailh Brown)  HEADPHONES: HiFiMan Ananda, Drop x Sennheiser HD6XX

IEMS: 7Hz Timeless, Tin Audio T2, Blon BL-03, Samsung/AKG Galaxy Buds Pro  STUDIO MONITORS: Mackie MR524, Mackie MRS10  MIC: NEAT Worker Bee  

INTERFACE: Focusrite Scarlett Solo  AMPLIFIER: SMSL SP200 THX AAA-888, XDUOO XD-05 Basic  DAC: SMSL Sanskrit 10th MKII (upgraded AK4493 Version)

WHEEL: Logitech G29 + Logitech G Shifter

 

[Stream Encoder]

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COOLER: EVGA CLC 280 PSU: MSI A750GF 80+ Gold CASE: Phanteks P400A Digital

 

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RECEIVER: Kenwood DPX304MBT  SOUND DEADENING: Damplifier Pro Deadening Mats  SOUND DAMPENING: Custom solution, layers of thick insulation

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16 minutes ago, OfficialTechSpace said:

It's a common descriptive audio terminology that is easily defined. It's used by more people than just Crinacle, that just-so-happened to be one of the descriptive terms that he used to describe the Amiron Home. A bloated and shouty headphone. 

 

Bloat refers to the overemphasis in the response, along with generally masking the surrounding frequencies and muddying up the mix. Shout refers to a more piercing unpleasantry, sounding as though that range is being shouted over the rest of the mix.

Being a regular owner doesn't mean anything. That's like saying "I drive a Ford Pinto, it's a great car. Best to listen to the owners, not the experienced critics". Same could be said for someone who's the regular owner of a Razer gaming headset, and recommends them. If anything, owning them and using them gives you less of a right to speak on them, because it says a lot about your critical listening ability. 

 

That's not to say that everyone has trained their ears to understand these insufficiencies, but they do exist, and that's why the people that do understand them are the ones that're supposed to be recommending for or against them.

Regarding the more piercing unpleasantry, you mean the sibilance?

 

Quote

Same could be said for someone who's the regular owner of a Razer gaming headset, and recommends them.

That unfortunately happens. Gaming headsets/headphones are usually trash and Razer is way too overpriced too. They are most of the time ugly too.

I think people who wants to enter the world of better audio will avoid gaming headphones.

DAC/AMPs:

Klipsch Heritage Headphone Amplifier

Headphones: Klipsch Heritage HP-3 Walnut, Meze 109 Pro, Beyerdynamic Amiron Home, Amiron Wireless Copper, Tygr 300R, DT880 600ohm Manufaktur, T90, Fidelio X2HR

CPU: Intel 4770, GPU: Asus RTX3080 TUF Gaming OC, Mobo: MSI Z87-G45, RAM: DDR3 16GB G.Skill, PC Case: Fractal Design R4 Black non-iglass, Monitor: BenQ GW2280

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