Buying RAM for the 5800X3D

[TechTippee]

Greetings TechTippers,

 

Watching HardwareUnboxed's rather exhaustive reviews of the 5800X3D's performance, it seems that huge cache means there's very little to gain from splurging on expensive fast RAM, so I plan on getting a 3200cl16 kit to go with it. Any recommendations? I'm happy to save a buck where I can on the memory, as DDR4 appears to be coming to the end of the road, bar some mutterings from AMD about AM4 not being dead yet.

[Quackers101]

likely no difference compared to any other ryzen product of that generation.

so 3200 to 3600 should be good, although the cl could be a bit high when you can get 3600cl16 kits? (forgot if its really that high, maybe not that bad really)

[cat milker]

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/n6RgXL/gskill-ripjaws-v-16-gb-2-x-8-gb-ddr4-3600-memory-f4-3600c18d-16gvk

This is a really cheap g skill ripjaw 16gb kit of 3600mhz ddr4 ram. I would go with this.

[TechTippee]

6 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

3200 to 3600 should be good, although the cl could be a bit high when you can get 3600cl16 kits

the "actual latency" of a kit of 3200cl16 is the same as a kit of 3600cl18 (10 nanoseconds), or so I'm told. Kits of 3600cl16 have an "actual latency" of 8.88 nanoseconds, which is slightly better, but I seriously doubt I'll notice the difference, especially given the results stated above regarding the extra cache making a RAM upgrade less effective.
 

13 minutes ago, cat milker said:

This is a really cheap g skill ripjaw 16gb kit of 3600mhz ddr4 ram. I would go with this.

That stuff is about the same price as the 3200cl16 kits I'm looking at, and given that 3200cl16 = 3600cl18 in terms of latency, it is something to consider since all I'll likely be doing is turning on XMP.

[RONOTHAN##]

15 minutes ago, TechTippee said:

the "actual latency" of a kit of 3200cl16 is the same as a kit of 3600cl18 (10 nanoseconds), or so I'm told. Kits of 3600cl16 have an "actual latency" of 8.88 nanoseconds, which is slightly better, but I seriously doubt I'll notice the difference, especially given the results stated above regarding the extra cache making a RAM upgrade less effective.

Kinda, the way it works on Zen is actually a little different. The FCLK (the interconnect between each of the cores and the memory controller) is ideally tied to the memory frequency, so raising the memory frequency lowers the latency between all those components. While the first word latency between a 3200C16 kit and a 3600C18 kit is technically the same, the latency that actually matters for performance is the latency between the memory stick and the cores, which does include the FCLK, so the performance of the 3600C18 kit will be better (assuming the subtimings aren't complete garbage). 

 

Still, the odds of actually noticing the difference is pretty low, it's about a 5% performance difference in games between the 3200MT/s C16 kit and a 3600MT/s CL16 kit, so take that for what you will. 

[xg32]

doesn't make sense to go with the worst ram when you are paying for the 5800x3d, either go with the 5700 and cheap ram or at least go with this

 

https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-16gb-288-pin-ddr4-sdram/p/N82E16820232880?Description=cl16 3600&cm_re=cl16_3600-_-20-232-880-_-Product

 

130usd for 2x16

[TechTippee]

10 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

While the first word latency between a 3200C16 kit and a 3600C18 kit is technically the same, the latency that actually matters for performance is the latency between the memory stick and the cores, which does include the FCLK, so the performance of the 3600C18 kit will be better (assuming the subtimings aren't complete garbage).

That's very interesting.

The 3600cl18 kit linked above has advertised timings of 18-22-22-42. A kit of 3200cl16 selling for the same price has advertised timings of 16-18-18-36. I don't know enough about timings to dub one "trash" over the other, but if there was a 5% difference or less between the two in a worst-case scenario, I'd be fine with either.

 

4 minutes ago, xg32 said:

either go with the 5700 and cheap ram or at least go with this

If I'm just gaming on the X3D (which I am, since productivity suffers a bit with the reduced clocks), why would I need 32 GB of RAM? Not to mention that if I stick with 16 GB, why spend an extra $20 on better RAM when I won't be able to carry it forward to my next rig? Will I even notice a difference between 3600cl16 and 3600cl18?

[xg32]

17 minutes ago, TechTippee said:

.

 

the 5800x3d is 200dollars more than a 5700 for a 15% gain (gaming only), if you wanna stick with 16gb ram that's fine (though for most new builds i recommend 32) but the diff between cl18 and cl16 3600 will be about 3% for the 15dollars diff, you can't carry the cpu forward either, and getting dual ranked ram is another 10-15% difference, since you care enough to pay for a 5800x3d to begin with

 

I would either go full cheap with a 5700 (even a 5600)+cheap ram, or at least get decent dual ranked ram if paying extra for the 5800x3d

 

And depending on ur gpu, you may not need a 5800x3d.

 

[RONOTHAN##]

18 minutes ago, TechTippee said:

I don't know enough about timings to dub one "trash" over the other

The sub-timings are something that you can't tell the performance of for a memory kit. There are a lot of memory timings on Ryzen, all of which affect performance, some very greatly, and for some reason memory manufacturers only advertise the primary timings (the ones you listed). Because of this, you can buy one kit of 3600 C18-22-22-42 and another of 3600CL18-22-22-42, yet one of them performs amazing and the other performs terribly. That said, there are a lot of motherboards that just ignore the listed sub timings on a memory kit anyway, so sometimes it doesn't actually matter. 3600CL18-22-22-42 isn't particularly great primary timings, though they aren't completely terrible. I'd want something better though (preferably B die, though B die only really makes sense if you're planning on tuning your memory), but it's not that big a deal. 

[TechTippee]

32 minutes ago, xg32 said:

at least get decent dual ranked ram if paying extra for the 5800x3d

I already have the X3D in hand, so that's a certainty. If there are double-digit gains to be had even with this chip by running dual-rank memory, I'll have to consider that.

22 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

3600CL18-22-22-42 isn't particularly great primary timings, though they aren't completely terrible. I'd want something better though

So the thing to do is look up what die the memory kits I'm considering use, to gauge their potential at the very least. Especially if I do end up going 4x8 like xg32 is suggesting.

[An0maly_76]

Crucial Ballistix are engineered to get the best bang-for-the-buck performance from a Ryzen IMO. I have a CL16 kit in my 5900X and it screams.

[RONOTHAN##]

25 minutes ago, TechTippee said:

I already have the X3D in hand, so that's a certainty. If there are double-digit gains to be had even with this chip by running dual-rank memory, I'll have to consider that.

So the thing to do is look up what die the memory kits I'm considering use, to gauge their potential at the very least. Especially if I do end up going 4x8 like xg32 is suggesting.

 

It is a pretty decent performance uplift, though I'm a bit hesitant to recommend running 4x8GB sticks, mainly because I've seen it happen a bit too often in the (what I call) kitchen sink bins (3200 CL16, 3600 CL18, 3600 CL16-19-19, 4000 CL18-22-22, etc., memory speeds that a lot of different memory chips can hit with on a somewhat regular basis) where you get two 2x8GB kits, and they each have different memory chips on them. For context, memory manufacturers put whatever the cheapest memory IC to get that day on whatever memory sticks you buy, so one day you might get a stick made with say Samsung C die, and the next you might get one with Hynix DJR. Getting those and running them at their rated speeds together is difficult at best. Only ways to avoid that is to get a 4x8GB kit, or get a memory kit that's guaranteed to be a specific memory chip, like Crucial Ballistix 8GB sticks are guaranteed to be Micron Rev. E, 8GB sticks that are for rated stupid high frequency (4400+) and very loose tRCD and tRP (the 2nd and 3rd timings in the primary timings) is Hynix DJR, or something 3200MHz and above with flat timings (first 3 are the same, though I generally consider kits where tCL is one lower than tRCD and tRP flat as well, I.E. 17-18-18, 14-15-15, etc.) is Samsung B die (the objectively best DDR4). If you're going through the effort to get one of the sticks that's guaranteed to be one memory chip, you might as well go through the effort of getting one of the sticks that's guaranteed to be dual rank (better memory overclocking support, and generally a little cheaper)

 

As for looking up what die the memory kit has, that's generally impossible. Unless you're buying one that's guaranteed to have one specific memory chip, generally it's impossible since the manufacturer changes what's there each day. The only way that's somewhat feasible to know what you're buying is to buy used Corsair memory kits, because Corsair is at least nice enough to put a version number that can be decoded into each of the particular memory chips so you do know what you're getting (I.E. v4.31 is Samsung B die, v3.34 is Micron 8Gb Rev. E, v5.33 is Hynix CJR, etc.), though some people are a bit hesitant to buy used RAM (I'm not, but there are people who do) and you the sticker is posted on the memory sticks themselves, not visible on the website or on the box if you're buying in store. 

 

10 minutes ago, An0maly_76 said:

Crucial Ballistix are engineered to get the best performance from a Ryzen IMO. I have a CL16 kit in my 5900X and it screams.

They're fine, they're not the best performance, that has and will continue to be Samsung B die based memory kits. Ballistix is a very good value kit, it's just not close to the best performance memory kit (unless you need 64GB+, then yeah it's the best option).

[An0maly_76]

3 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

 

It is a pretty decent performance uplift, though I'm a bit hesitant to recommend running 4x8GB sticks, mainly because I've seen it happen a bit too often in the (what I call) kitchen sink bins (3200 CL16, 3600 CL18, 3600 CL16-19-19, 4000 CL18-22-22, etc., memory speeds that a lot of different memory chips can hit with on a somewhat regular basis) where you get two 2x8GB kits, and they each have different memory chips on them. For context, memory manufacturers put whatever the cheapest memory IC to get that day on whatever memory sticks you buy, so one day you might get a stick made with say Samsung C die, and the next you might get one with Hynix DJR. Getting those and running them at their rated speeds together is difficult at best. Only ways to avoid that is to get a 4x8GB kit, or get a memory kit that's guaranteed to be a specific memory chip, like Crucial Ballistix 8GB sticks are guaranteed to be Micron Rev. B, 8GB sticks that are for rated stupid high frequency (4400+) and very loose tRCD and tRP (the 2nd and 3rd timings in the primary timings) is Hynix DJR, or something 3200MHz and above with flat timings (first 3 are the same, though I generally consider kits where tCL is one lower than tRCD and tRP flat as well) is Samsung B die (the objectively best DDR4). If you're going through the effort to get one of the sticks that's guaranteed to be one memory chip, you might as well go through the effort of getting one of the sticks that's guaranteed to be dual rank (better memory overclocking support, and generally a little cheaper)

 

As for looking up what die the memory kit has, that's generally impossible. Unless you're buying one that's guaranteed to have one specific memory chip, generally it's impossible since the manufacturer changes what's there each day. The only way that's somewhat feasible to know what you're buying is to buy used Corsair memory kits, because Corsair is at least nice enough to put a version number that can be decoded into each of the particular memory chips so you do know what you're getting (I.E. v4.31 is Samsung B die, v3.34 is Micron 8Gb Rev. E, v5.33 is Hynix CJR, etc.), though some people are a bit hesitant to buy used RAM (I'm not, but there are people who do) and you the sticker is posted on the memory sticks themselves, not visible on the website or on the box if you're buying in store. 

 

They're fine, they're not the best performance, that has and will continue to be Samsung B die based memory kits. Ballistix is a very good value kit, it's just not close to the best performance memory kit (unless you need 64GB+, then yeah it's the best option).

I'm about stability and bang for the buck. I have been considering OC'ing my CL16s, I'm told 1.5V and 3800Mhz gets a 10% boost in performance.

[RONOTHAN##]

Just now, An0maly_76 said:

I'm about stability and bang for the buck. I have been considering OC'ing my CL16s, I'm told 1.5V and 3800Mhz gets a 10% boost in performance.

Ballistix does good especially considering the price, it's just that a good kit of B die will do better. Ballistix will do 3800MHz CL16-16-16-34 with meh subtimings? B die will do 3800MHz 14-14-14-21 with very tight subtimings at ~1.5-1.6V depending on how good the kit is. Both are good, I do recommend Ballistix since they're good, cheap overclocking RAM, it's just that solid B die will always be better and you can't call Ballistix "engineered to get the best performance from a Ryzen" because it's just not the best performance.

[An0maly_76]

3 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

Ballistix does good especially considering the price, it's just that a good kit of B die will do better. Ballistix will do 3800MHz CL16-16-16-34 with meh subtimings? B die will do 3800MHz 14-14-14-21 with very tight subtimings at ~1.5-1.6V depending on how good the kit is. Both are good, I do recommend Ballistix since they're good, cheap overclocking RAM, it's just that solid B die will always be better and you can't call Ballistix "engineered to get the best performance from a Ryzen" because it's just not the best performance.

Depends on how you look at it. I'd rather get 80% of the performance for $125 than spend another $100 to get the other 20%. I'm not saying B-die isn't superior. I just don't think it's worth the outrageous prices.

[TrigrH]

2 hours ago, TechTippee said:

Greetings TechTippers,

 

Watching HardwareUnboxed's rather exhaustive reviews of the 5800X3D's performance, it seems that huge cache means there's very little to gain from splurging on expensive fast RAM, so I plan on getting a 3200cl16 kit to go with it. Any recommendations? I'm happy to save a buck where I can on the memory, as DDR4 appears to be coming to the end of the road, bar some mutterings from AMD about AM4 not being dead yet.

The X3D is special and benefits LESS from ram compared to all other 5000 series CPUs.

 

I would get a cheap 3600 CL18 32gb kit.

 

If you want to get your X3D faster, using PBO tuner to run curve optimizer and a motherboard that supports BCLK overclocking to edge out a few more percentage points.

[RONOTHAN##]

8 minutes ago, An0maly_76 said:

Depends on how you look at it. I'd rather get 80% of the performance for $125 than spend another $100 to get the other 20%. I'm not saying B-die isn't superior. I just don't think it's worth the outrageous prices.

The way your first post is written, it does sound like you're calling B die inferior, which is where my problem with it comes from. 

 

I do agree, B die only realistically makes sense if you're overclocking because the subtimings are where its real advantage comes from. If you're just enabling XMP it doesn't make that much of a difference. That said, B die isn't as expensive as you make it out to be, for a 16GB kit of Ballistix you'd be spending $65, while the cheapest kit of B die you'd be spending $80. For $15 more if you want to overclock, I'd say it's worth it. 

[Mark Kaine]

2 hours ago, An0maly_76 said:

. I'd rather get 80% of the performance for $125 than spend another $100 to get the other 20%

My B-dies cost only 135 € ...  (16gigs)

 

The RGB sux but performance seems solid!

[freeagent]

It was that video that pushed me to buy my second set of 3200c14. I can run whatever I want. 3200, 3600, 3800 c14,15,16, flat, mixed, tight subs higher voltage, regular subs lower voltage.. very flexible. With my 5600X both kits, though not at the same time will do whatever speed bin I want. Hopefully DDR5 will have its own B-Die type chip.

[Mark Kaine]

Thats the thing if u  already care about ram why not buy bdie 3200 can run at xmp or whatever you want basically.  most people don't care about ram stock/2400 is fine as long the pc boots!

 

10 hours ago, TechTippee said:

it seems that huge cache means there's very little to gain from splurging on expensive fast RAM,

i dont think it works this way, IF does matter for Ryzen too (ergo u need fast RAM lol)

[freeagent]

51 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

Thats the thing if u  already care about ram why not buy bdie 3200 can run at xmp or whatever you want basically.  most people don't care about ram stock/2400 is fine as long the pc boots!

I only use XMP on my 5600X if I plan on running at 2000 FCLK or above, otherwise those subs are slow

 

I run a manual tune and my settings are superior to the XMP settings, until over 1900 1:1, then they need to be softened up a bit.

[xg32]

just here to say that i would go b-die 2x16 for max performance, not ballistix.

 

either the 130usd cl16 kit or the 240usd cl14 kit, i went with 4x8 as fast 2x16 wasnt available at the time, and there is problems going past 3666-3733 with 4 sticks (the threshold is higher on an intel platform)

 

how did this go from budget ram to minmaxing 

[BerkayZ87]

5800X3D has same IMC with other Ryzen 5000 CPUs. So, in daily use you probably can't go over 2000 FCLK. Focus on lower timings. I don't know your living country prices, but if Crucial Ballistix kits are cheap, go for it. You can easily go for 3800-15 or 4000-16. But if the B-Die kits are at same price with Ballistix, go for B-Die. Even tighter timings, lower timings, better overall performance and voltages.

 

By the way, I don't recommend Corsair for overclocking for sure. I bought 3200-14-14-14-34 kit and it couldn't post 3600-14-14-14-34 with 1.55V. But with Patriot 4000-19, I pushed it 3933-14-15-8-12-21-34 with 1.57V easily.

[Mark Kaine]

This is my RAM btw, i believe, exactly same number, but mine has an X (gtzrx) at the end (cause gen X!)...  it got more expensive, i only paid 135€

 

https://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/OffersOfProduct/5402989_-trident-z-16gb-kit-ddr4-3200-cl14-f4-3200c14d-16gtzr-g-skill.html

 

 

and yeah, there are a lot of cheaper trident Zs, I suppose they all suck

[freeagent]

The tighter and faster, the better.To run that CPU with run of the mill memory is a travesty imo. Dual ranked bdie.. either 2x16 or 4x8. Preferably C14 but C16 “will do”