architect Architecture Studio good enough workstations

[Vlad28]

Budget (including currency):  2500-3000 $US

Country: Romania

Games, programs or workloads that it will be used for: main focus: Revit (favors single-core performance) and TwinMotion (GPU heavy)

Other details (existing parts lists, whether any peripherals are needed, what you're upgrading from, when you're going to buy, what resolution and refresh rate you want to play at, etc):

 

The plan is to buy in the next month or so, 2 PC for our family architecture studio, both focused on Revit workloads and just one on TwinMotion.

I am upgrading from: I7-4771 @3.50Ghz, 16GB DDR3 @1600Mhz, GTX 1060 6GB (I plan to keep the GPU and use it in the Revit only workload station) on a Gigabyte GA-H87-HD3 motherboard + 10+ years PSU: Corsair TX850W (model: CMPSU-850TX)

I plan to keep my two 2K monitors and peripherals. I also will buy another 2K monitor by the end of the year.

 

This are the parts I have chosen and the local price (+/- 5$US depending on the vendor):

CPU: i5-11600KF - price 225$US (the i7 is 50% more expensive but doesn't bring more in single-core performance)

CPU cooler: be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 - price 95$US

RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX Black 32GB (2x16GB) 3200Mhz - price 150$US (don't know if I will buy first a 16GB kit and then add another one to save some money for now)

MB: Gigabyte Z590 UD AC - price 175$US (it seems that de Z590 UD variant is not available in my country... don't really need the wi-fi on it)

CASE: Corsair 4000D - price 110$US ( I really like this case because of the air filters and that the HDD bay can be cooled by the front fans) + 3 case fans (what do you recommend?)

PSU: Corsair TX-M Series TX850M - price 140$US

 

Total for one system: 895$US x 2 = roughly 2000$US adding the price for the extra fans and y splitters or a fan hub (what do you recommend for adding more and not having enough fan-headers on the motherboard?)

Also I don't know if its worth the extra money for a 12th gen i5 and switching to a new platform and CPU architecture plus windows 11 and if I would benefit or have problems with the efficiency-cores.

 

GPU for one system: the cheapest RTX 3060 ti at this moment are around 670$US : Gainward GeForce RTX 3060 Ti Ghost LHR / Palit GeForce RTX 3060 Ti Dual LHR 8GB / GIGABYTE GeForce RTX 3060 Ti EAGLE OC LHR

other RTX 3060 ti 800-900$US and even more, nearly as the cheapest RTX 3070.

 

As the title says we are looking for good enough air cooled systems that will handle our projects for the next 5+ years and from experience the system that I am running now had some little lag with one big point cloud project and TwinMotion works okey - could be better.

 

Last, the system will stay under the desk... so aesthetics and RGB doesn't matter.

 

I am planning to do a single-core overclock (this is the first time I am trying an overclockable CPU). Are the parts good for a 5.0Ghz single-core overclock? My main concern is durability and reliability of the systems.

 

Any suggestions and opinions are welcome and appreciated.

Thank you in advance!

[Bombastinator]

Deleted as its no longer relevant with the post change except maybe the monitor resolution.  Architectural monitors of that vintage tended to Not be K type things but we’re of a different aspect ratio and used the letter system.  $620 is a lot for a 3060ti  Can you use AMD cards? (Might not be able to sometimes architectural software doesn’t like em)

[brob]

You would do well to consider Intel 12th gen cpu rather than 11th gen. Keep in mind that clock speed is not a great comparator between different CPU architectures. A 12th gen core running at the same speed as an 11th gen core will outperform the later.

 

Any issues with the hybrid nature of the 12th gen architecture are short term and mostly resolved using Windows 11. 

 

Watch around 15:34 for results that show the i5-12600K beating the i9-11900K in the RevitRFO 2022 Modelling test.

 

 

Cases with mesh fronts are preferred there days as they offer much better airflow and thus much better temperatures. Better temperatures mean better cpu performance and lower noise levels. There is a 4000D Airflow model that would be a good choice, although I'm not sure it is available without a glass panel side. A good alternative would be one of the non glass side panel Fractal Design Meshify models. Stock fans on these and the Airflow case are sufficient for the outlined systems.

 

An 850W PSU far exceeds system requirements. I would suggest something around 650W. My personal preference would be Corsair RM650X or Seasonic GX650. However there are many excellent models available. https://linustechtips.com/topic/1116640-psu-tier-list-40/ is a useful resource. PSU are critical components. They directly affect the stability and longevity of all powered components.

 

Given the desire for stable, reliable systems, I would look at a locked CPU like the i7-12700 on a B660 or H670 motherboard. You will see a big performance jump without getting into the complexity of modern overclocking. If you do want to try overclocking, an i5-12600K on a Z690 motherboard would be a good choice.

 

Use NVMe drives, at least for the system and active projects. They offer a significant performance improvement. 

 

[Vlad28]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

Deleted as its no longer relevant with the post change except maybe the monitor resolution.  Architectural monitors of that vintage tended to Not be K type things but we’re of a different aspect ratio and used the letter system.  $620 is a lot for a 3060ti  Can you use AMD cards? (Might not be able to sometimes architectural software doesn’t like em)

The new feature of Path Tracing from TwinMotion seems to favor a Nvidia RTX card rather then a AMD one. A TwinMotion community test the render speeds of some card and the RTX3060ti did it in 219 seconds vs a RX6700 witch did it in 586 seconds and the RX6800 and RX6900 did it faster in 185seconds. A RX6600 or RX6650 is cheaper but it will not perform as good.

 

I am using 2 monitor with 2k resolution (2560x1440).

[Vlad28]

29 minutes ago, brob said:

You would do well to consider Intel 12th gen cpu rather than 11th gen. Keep in mind that clock speed is not a great comparator between different CPU architectures. A 12th gen core running at the same speed as an 11th gen core will outperform the later.

 

Any issues with the hybrid nature of the 12th gen architecture are short term and mostly resolved using Windows 11. 

 

Watch around 15:34 for results that show the i5-12600K beating the i9-11900K in the RevitRFO 2022 Modelling test.

 

 

Cases with mesh fronts are preferred there days as they offer much better airflow and thus much better temperatures. Better temperatures mean better cpu performance and lower noise levels. There is a 4000D Airflow model that would be a good choice, although I'm not sure it is available without a glass panel side. A good alternative would be one of the non glass side panel Fractal Design Meshify models. Stock fans on these and the Airflow case are sufficient for the outlined systems.

 

An 850W PSU far exceeds system requirements. I would suggest something around 650W. My personal preference would be Corsair RM650X or Seasonic GX650. However there are many excellent models available. https://linustechtips.com/topic/1116640-psu-tier-list-40/ is a useful resource. PSU are critical components. They directly affect the stability and longevity of all powered components.

 

Given the desire for stable, reliable systems, I would look at a locked CPU like the i7-12700 on a B660 or H670 motherboard. You will see a big performance jump without getting into the complexity of modern overclocking. If you do want to try overclocking, an i5-12600K on a Z690 motherboard would be a good choice.

 

Use NVMe drives, at least for the system and active projects. They offer a significant performance improvement. 

 

Because of that video I was considering going 12th gen. I will look into a build with a locked CPU and see where I stand regarding the buget.

The Fractal Meshify C Tempered Glass goes for around 120$US - other variants or Fractal Design Meshify 2 with solid panle goes for 180$US. Its a considerable difference and I will study it more. Maybe will find it a discount.

I know a 850W PSU is overkill for now. Corsair RM650X 2021 is priced at 150$US and the Seasonic FOCUS GX650 at 105$US so they could be an option.

I forgot to add the NVMe drive - planning to us Samsung 980 500GB for system and programs. Regarding the location of the project file I did not see any performance benefits of being on an SSD or HDD. It would be ideal to have active project on an NVMe but that would be the next upgrade.

 

Thank you for the advice. I will probably update the topic with a 12th gen system.

[Bombastinator]

4 hours ago, Vlad28 said:

The new feature of Path Tracing from TwinMotion seems to favor a Nvidia RTX card rather then a AMD one. A TwinMotion community test the render speeds of some card and the RTX3060ti did it in 219 seconds vs a RX6700 witch did it in 586 seconds and the RX6800 and RX6900 did it faster in 185seconds. A RX6600 or RX6650 is cheaper but it will not perform as good.

 

I am using 2 monitor with 2k resolution (2560x1440).

A 3060ti (which I would compare to a 1080 in raw frames performance) is in a lot of ways just a much newer hotted up 1060.  It may have so may features missing or turned off you may not actually see much benefit.  It’s not a 102 die.  This Very well might not be true, but if it hasn’t been looked at it might not hurt.

[Bombastinator]

5 hours ago, brob said:

You would do well to consider Intel 12th gen cpu rather than 11th gen. Keep in mind that clock speed is not a great comparator between different CPU architectures. A 12th gen core running at the same speed as an 11th gen core will outperform the later.

 

Any issues with the hybrid nature of the 12th gen architecture are short term and mostly resolved using Windows 11. 

 

Watch around 15:34 for results that show the i5-12600K beating the i9-11900K in the RevitRFO 2022 Modelling test.

 

 

Cases with mesh fronts are preferred there days as they offer much better airflow and thus much better temperatures. Better temperatures mean better cpu performance and lower noise levels. There is a 4000D Airflow model that would be a good choice, although I'm not sure it is available without a glass panel side. A good alternative would be one of the non glass side panel Fractal Design Meshify models. Stock fans on these and the Airflow case are sufficient for the outlined systems.

 

An 850W PSU far exceeds system requirements. I would suggest something around 650W. My personal preference would be Corsair RM650X or Seasonic GX650. However there are many excellent models available. https://linustechtips.com/topic/1116640-psu-tier-list-40/ is a useful resource. PSU are critical components. They directly affect the stability and longevity of all powered components.

 

Given the desire for stable, reliable systems, I would look at a locked CPU like the i7-12700 on a B660 or H670 motherboard. You will see a big performance jump without getting into the complexity of modern overclocking. If you do want to try overclocking, an i5-12600K on a Z690 motherboard would be a good choice.

 

Use NVMe drives, at least for the system and active projects. They offer a significant performance improvement. 

 

But then you gotta use win11 and all the maintainance headaches that come with it.  The thing I think 12th gen has over 11th gen aside from the ips is port availability (which is more a motherboard thing but none the less real even with the B.S usb renaming (“usb3.2 gen1”? actually USB 3.0.  I don’t believe the customer confusion created was unintentional despite people saying “it’s for clarity”) and very possible the LITTLE cores.  The OS can run on one of those, freeing up the big cores to do your work.  It’s even possible (though unlikely) that some background app you have running can use them too. Which can give the 12600k the possibility of up to 16 threads doing work (though for a lot of things it’s a 6/12 chip) the 12th gen Z boards are hellaciously expensive, but the B boards aren’t.  And with a 12600k on a B board you can’t OC it, but you do get the better IPS and the LITTLE cores which could very well be as fast as an OCed 11600k.

[brob]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

But then you gotta use win11 and all the maintainance headaches that come with it.  The thing I think 12th gen has over 11th gen aside from the ips is port availability (which is more a motherboard thing but none the less real even with the B.S usb renaming (“usb3.2 gen1”? actually USB 3.0.  I don’t believe the customer confusion created was unintentional despite people saying “it’s for clarity”) and very possible the LITTLE cores.  The OS can run on one of those, freeing up the big cores to do your work.  It’s even possible (though unlikely) that some background app you have running can use them too. Which can give the 12600k the possibility of up to 16 threads doing work (though for a lot of things it’s a 6/12 chip) the 12th gen Z boards are hellaciously expensive, but the B boards aren’t.  And with a 12600k on a B board you can’t OC it, but you do get the better IPS and the LITTLE cores which could very well be as fast as an OCed 11600k.

 

What maintenance headaches?

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, brob said:

 

What maintenance headaches?

They hid and/or removed a bunch of maintainance utilities.  People are resorting to weird hacks to get access to the ones left so they can repair problems.  Ram across a video of the kind of thing that is being resorted to

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cDyzwHIrW88

[Vlad28]

@Bombastinator it seems that the 1080 is not being sold anymore... I could spec the system with a RTX3050 that is about 450 $US... still very expensive compared to MSRP. A month ago the RTX3060ti was selling for 960 $US so I hope the price will still drop.

 

Does anyone know if windows 11 has improved in the past months? Or when the next big update is?

As of my understanding is that windows 11 manages better the 12th gen CPU usage and being more power efficient, but it performs similar regarding the OS.

 

12th gen system:

CPU i5-12600KF for 290$US

MB Gigabyte Z690 UD DDR5 for 240$US

RAM Corsair Vengeance LPX Black 32GB DDR4 4000MHz CL19 Dual Channel Kit (not in stock) or Kingston FURY Renegade, 32GB DDR4, 4266MHz CL19, Dual Channel Kit for around 260$US or keep the same RAM configuration as the 11th gen system

 

Its a big pump in price  240$US vs the 11th gen system... if I go 12th gen I have to consider a locked CPU to still be in the low part of the buget.

 

Does the be quiet! CPU cooler work on a 12th gen? 

[brob]

1 hour ago, Vlad28 said:

Does the be quiet! CPU cooler work on a 12th gen? 

 

Bequiet has a motherboard compatibility checker.

 

2 hours ago, Vlad28 said:

Its a big pump in price  240$US vs the 11th gen system... if I go 12th gen I have to consider a locked CPU to still be in the low part of the buget.

 

I don't understand the dilemma. The move from 4th to 12th gen is going to be significant. Overclocking is not going to add appreciably to the difference.

 

2 hours ago, Vlad28 said:

12th gen system:

CPU i5-12600KF for 290$US

MB Gigabyte Z690 UD DDR5 for 240$US

RAM Corsair Vengeance LPX Black 32GB DDR4 4000MHz CL19 Dual Channel Kit (not in stock) or Kingston FURY Renegade, 32GB DDR4, 4266MHz CL19, Dual Channel Kit for around 260$US or keep the same RAM configuration as the 11th gen system

 

The motherboard and memory are not compatible.

 

[Bombastinator]

5 hours ago, Vlad28 said:

@Bombastinator it seems that the 1080 is not being sold anymore... I could spec the system with a RTX3050 that is about 450 $US... still very expensive compared to MSRP. A month ago the RTX3060ti was selling for 960 $US so I hope the price will still drop.

 

Does anyone know if windows 11 has improved in the past months? Or when the next big update is?

As of my understanding is that windows 11 manages better the 12th gen CPU usage and being more power efficient, but it performs similar regarding the OS.

 

12th gen system:

CPU i5-12600KF for 290$US

MB Gigabyte Z690 UD DDR5 for 240$US

RAM Corsair Vengeance LPX Black 32GB DDR4 4000MHz CL19 Dual Channel Kit (not in stock) or Kingston FURY Renegade, 32GB DDR4, 4266MHz CL19, Dual Channel Kit for around 260$US or keep the same RAM configuration as the 11th gen system

 

Its a big pump in price  240$US vs the 11th gen system... if I go 12th gen I have to consider a locked CPU to still be in the low part of the buget.

 

Does the be quiet! CPU cooler work on a 12th gen? 

I just mentioned it as a measuring stick for raw speed comparison.  That memory won’t work with that motherboard btw.  The motherboard requires ddr5 which is still overpriced atm.  Both ddr4 and ddr5 12xxx compatible motherboards are made.  If you don’t plan to overclock those 12600ks B series motherboards are cheaper.  The big difference between the 12600 and 12600k imho are the little cores (intel calls them eCores) the 12600k has em the 12600 does not iirc.  I don’t snow if the 12400 is 4/8 or 6/12 if the 12400 is 6/12 I suspect there isn’t much difference outside of a clock rate boost.  It was mentioned elsewhere that the 12600f may not even exist.  May have been regional though.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Bombastinator

[Vlad28]

@Bombastinator & @brob Thank you for your help!

 

I think this will be my final build:

CPU: I5-12600 (around 265$) - maybe the next build I will try OC and have a bigger budget

MB: MSI PRO B660-A DDR4 (150$ on sale)

RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX Black 32GB (2x16GB) 3200Mhz (around 150$US)

CPU Cooler: be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 (95$ on sale) or a Shadow Rock 3 (65$) - I check board compatibility on be quiet website and it's OK

STORAGE: Samsung 980 500GB M.2 (65$)

PSU: Seasonic FOCUS GX 80 PLUS® Gold, 650W (105$) - Corsair PSU are a little more expensive

CASE: Corsair 4000D Airflow (110$US) or be quiet! 500Dx (120$US) because of better CPU cooler clearance (170mm vs 190mm - both coolers have around 163mm height)

 

Around 950$ a system depending on sale/vendor/case so it's just exactly where I want to be with the cost.

 

For GPU I will wait a little longer to see if it will still drop in price but mainly I will buy a RTX3060ti

[Bombastinator]

3 hours ago, Vlad28 said:

@Bombastinator & @brob Thank you for your help!

 

I think this will be my final build:

CPU: I5-12600 (around 265$) - maybe the next build I will try OC and have a bigger budget

MB: MSI PRO B660-A DDR4 (150$ on sale)

RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX Black 32GB (2x16GB) 3200Mhz (around 150$US)

CPU Cooler: be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 (95$ on sale) or a Shadow Rock 3 (65$) - I check board compatibility on be quiet website and it's OK

STORAGE: Samsung 980 500GB M.2 (65$)

PSU: Seasonic FOCUS GX 80 PLUS® Gold, 650W (105$) - Corsair PSU are a little more expensive

CASE: Corsair 4000D Airflow (110$US) or be quiet! 500Dx (120$US) because of better CPU cooler clearance (170mm vs 190mm - both coolers have around 163mm height)

 

Around 950$ a system depending on sale/vendor/case so it's just exactly where I want to be with the cost.

 

For GPU I will wait a little longer to see if it will still drop in price but mainly I will buy a RTX3060ti

A non OC cpu won’t need those dark rocks.  You could even get away with the stock coolers the CPUs come with and save the entire $95. As for the 12600/12400 thing they apparently do make a 12400f. If the 12400f is 6/12 and has a high enough clock for you it may be the better buy.

[brob]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

A non OC cpu won’t need those dark rocks.  You could even get away with the stock coolers the CPUs come with and save the entire $95. As for the 12600/12400 thing they apparently do make a 12400f. If the 12400f is 6/12 and has a high enough clock for you it may be the better buy.

 

For gaming the stock cooler will do a reasonable, if noisier job. For renders and other long running heavy loads they are inadequate. Heat builds up and the CPU will throttle.

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, brob said:

 

For gaming the stock cooler will do a reasonable, if noisier job. For renders and other long running heavy loads they are inadequate. Heat builds up and the CPU will throttle.

So something a bit less hefty than a dark rock4 then perhaps. Becomes a question of how important budget is.

[Bombastinator]

The common cooler paired with that chip seems to be something lower mid to mid tier, so something like an esports 34 or  a 212evo.  Dark rock makes one too iirc, though it seems to be a 3 pipe rather than a 4 pipe.  There are a bunch of em.

[FUIT1985]

On 5/19/2022 at 4:26 PM, Vlad28 said:

Because of that video I was considering going 12th gen. I will look into a build with a locked CPU and see where I stand regarding the buget.

The Fractal Meshify C Tempered Glass goes for around 120$US - other variants or Fractal Design Meshify 2 with solid panle goes for 180$US. Its a considerable difference and I will study it more. Maybe will find it a discount.

I know a 850W PSU is overkill for now. Corsair RM650X 2021 is priced at 150$US and the Seasonic FOCUS GX650 at 105$US so they could be an option.

I forgot to add the NVMe drive - planning to us Samsung 980 500GB for system and programs. Regarding the location of the project file I did not see any performance benefits of being on an SSD or HDD. It would be ideal to have active project on an NVMe but that would be the next upgrade.

 

Thank you for the advice. I will probably update the topic with a 12th gen system.

You can check the price of the nvidia quadro rtx a2000. It has more driver support then rtx 3060 and additional features like mosaic.

[Vlad28]

@Bombastinator I think I have an older 212 on my current build and it did the job in an old antec case that hase very little airflow. Both 34 eSports and 212evo seem a good choice for the new build. Will see what's available on time of purchase.

 

@FUIT1985 An RTX A2000 is more expensive, over 800$US.

[Bombastinator]

On 5/21/2022 at 2:49 PM, FUIT1985 said:

You can check the price of the nvidia quadro rtx a2000. It has more driver support then rtx 3060 and additional features like mosaic.

If you genuinely don’t care what the thing looks like you can actually just screw the parts to a board.  Cases are functionally probably the least important part of a build they’re barely one step beyond decoration (which makes them a step above rgb). There’s a company called DIY PC that may have something for you.  The cases are usually ugly and very cheaply made, but they’re also very cheap. 

[FUIT1985]

1 hour ago, Vlad28 said:

@Bombastinator I think I have an older 212 on my current build and it did the job in an old antec case that hase very little airflow. Both 34 eSports and 212evo seem a good choice for the new build. Will see what's available on time of purchase.

 

@FUIT1985 An RTX A2000 is more expensive, over 800$US.

 

Quote

 

pny professional graphics PNY 12GB RTX A2000 4x mDP Full Retail

VCNRTXA2000-12GB-PB

817,36 euro

 

https://www.lambda-tek.de/shop/?region=DE&prodID=B46213149

 

It was just a suggestion. But if a 3060 costs less than an a2000, you buy the former.