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AMD could be developing a 24-core/48-thread Ryzen 9 7950X CPU w/ a TDP of 170 W & up to 5.4GHz CPU clocks (Updated)

18 hours ago, RejZoR said:

It was released 2 years after Ryzen 5000.

Alder lake came out in November 2021. Ryzen 5000 seies in November 2020. So only one year.

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I cannot see AMD having less cores than the biggest intel cpu, so given that, could be true.

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On 5/18/2022 at 12:14 PM, Ydfhlx said:

Truth is that very few people care about low power usage.

Not really. We are already well beyond what can be protected by a 1500VA UPS (900 watts). So if your CPU and GPU combination (theoretically a 7950X(140w+) + 4090 (450w) + other parts like the MB (80w) and SSD's (20w a piece)) requires more than what a UPS can put out, then if your UPS ever kicks on, then the UPS dies immediately. Ask me how I know. 

 

On 5/18/2022 at 3:33 PM, Arika S said:

I just wish we'd see that competition more in the lower and mid range products. You know, the parts people will actually buy.

But they're not the parts people actually buy. You have the enthusiast market that the i9/R9 i7/R7 are for, and then you have the i3/R3 parts for hardware that you throw in a closet somewhere, like consumer NAS products.

 

The "low power" parts are the laptop CPU's, and even these Intel seems to think is a joke by putting out H/HX parts with a TDP and power consumption level that is unsuitable to using the laptop at more than half the capable power.

On 5/18/2022 at 5:53 PM, igormp said:

Still lacks quad channel memory and the extra PCIe lanes, but other than that the top end ryzen chips are similar to the lower end TRs (12c/24t and 16c/32t).

I'd rather have more memory channels and PCIe lanes in a desktop unit. The reason we don't see this in consumer parts is because it's assumed consumers never have expansion cards, but then, oh look, PCIe SSD's came along and now 24 lanes is way too insufficient. What if I want 10 SSD's ? Where do I get my 40 PCIe lanes on top of the 16 needed for the GPU? Sure, I'm unlikely to use all 10 at once, but I'd rather not have that potential bottleneck exist. (For the record, I put 3 PCIe NCME SSD's in my system, and two of those are off the chipset.)

 

Dell's Precision 7xxx laptops actually have 3 PCIe NVMe slots as well, in the same configuration.

 

 

Honestly, the problem that both AMD and Intel are creating here, are that they are creating CPU parts that can't intelligently scale based on power conditions, let alone the GPU. Like let's say theoretically the CPU+GPU combined pulls 1000w from the wall. There is no available UPS that can protect this. Yet, why does a UPS need to protect a system pulling 1000w? Why can't the UPS communicate with the PC to say "on battery" (which is what it does in fact do, like it were a laptop) and have the CPU and GPU immediately turn off CPU cores and GPU cores to bring it down to the performance of a i3/R3 + xx60 GPU part? and then alert the user to exit what they are doing so the PC can safely shutdown? The problem here is that the UPS has to put up with the full-tilt system for a few moments that exceeds the inverter's capability. And if you had a ML load running that requires the full GPU? Can it not scale down the CPU power to try and keep the power target safely within the UPS capability?

 

The problem I see is that really the desktop parts consume power that they don't need to. The CPU doesn't turn off cores, it simply clocks them down. The GPU doesn't turn off cores, it just clocks the overall GPU down. If it were possible to operate the computer at a 2.4ghz 8c/RTX 3060 level until needed it wouldn't be so bad. But that's pretty much not a thing. The computer clocks the CPU and GPU down, but if you're running a game or ML load, everything is maxed out, even CPU cores that aren't being used. And don't get me started on overclocked parts.

 

We're going to hit a point where North American computer users will no longer be able to use the top tier parts, because pulling 1800w(15A) from the wall is too dangerous.  After all the computer itself can't be the only thing on the circuit, you still have the monitor and other powered accessories. 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Kisai said:

The CPU doesn't turn off cores, it simply clocks them down

The CPU has sleep states where it does turn off CPU cores.

 

24 minutes ago, Kisai said:

If it were possible to operate the computer at a 2.4ghz 8c/RTX 3060 level until needed it wouldn't be so bad

It is possible.

 

24 minutes ago, Kisai said:

The computer clocks the CPU and GPU down, but if you're running a game or ML load, everything is maxed out, even CPU cores that aren't being used.

Depends on your scheduler and how you configured your system. IIRC, even on windows you can install UPS drivers on your system so it can detect when it's running on battery and act pretty much like a laptop, limiting the power usage.

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1 hour ago, igormp said:

The CPU has sleep states where it does turn off CPU cores.

 

It's not going to do that when other cores are maxed out. I'm basically making the ask of "don't turn on any additional CPU cores, ever, if power draw >900w". My 11th gen i7 + 3070Ti at full tilt right now pulls 400w with both monitor powered on and all USB drives on idle. This would be a lot easier if the PSU had a communication channel to the MB to tell it the load.

 

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26 minutes ago, Kisai said:

It's not going to do that when other cores are maxed out. I'm basically making the ask of "don't turn on any additional CPU cores, ever, if power draw >900w

Yeah, your idea doesn't make sense because lowering clocks on all cores nets you both more performance and less power draw when compared to having just some cores disabled (unless it's a single threaded task, then cores will be disabled), and the cpu is more than capable of limiting itself to some target power consumption when such limits are presented to it. (once again, that's how laptops work) 

 

27 minutes ago, Kisai said:

This would be a lot easier if the PSU had a communication channel to the MB to tell it the load.

But why? The PSU only allows the devices plugged into it to draw as much power as they want, and those decides are fully aware of the load they're drawing. 

 

As I said before, just get an UPS that relays that kind of information to the pc and you're golden. 

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6 hours ago, Kisai said:

Not really. We are already well beyond what can be protected by a 1500VA UPS (900 watts). So if your CPU and GPU combination (theoretically a 7950X(140w+) + 4090 (450w) + other parts like the MB (80w) and SSD's (20w a piece)) requires more than what a UPS can put out, then if your UPS ever kicks on, then the UPS dies immediately. Ask me how I know. 

Use a larger UPS? 1500VA isn't the maximum possible on residential wiring and socket. That said above 1500VA gets rather expensive.

 

6 hours ago, Kisai said:

Like let's say theoretically the CPU+GPU combined pulls 1000w from the wall. There is no available UPS that can protect this.

There are plenty, literally hundreds. I myself have an Eaton 9130 3000VA UPS and it transitions on to battery every day, multiple times in fact, with an active running load of 800W. It'll do this all the way up to the rated 3000VA/2700W no problem and has been tested. That's also how UPS are rated.

 

Edit: You should never connect a system to a UPS that can overdraw the rated protection load either anyway,

 

Reason why I transition on to battery is because I charge a 30kwh battery bank via solar and free power between 9pm to 12am, so run on battery for around 12 hours every night but require to go on to mains then back on to battery twice due to hard coded maximum on battery run time of the UPS.

 

image.png.c385f71411ef9ff090d69a0369817108.png

Just ignore the run time, it's got no idea since the maximum official battery capacity you can connect to it is only a few kwh not 30kwh lol.

 

6 hours ago, Kisai said:

Why can't the UPS communicate with the PC to say "on battery" (which is what it does in fact do, like it were a laptop) and have the CPU and GPU immediately turn off CPU cores and GPU cores to bring it down to the performance of a i3/R3 + xx60 GPU part?

This can be done, my Eaton can be made to do it, so can APC and a lot of others. Either use the UBS management interface or network management expansion card for the UPS. Install the UPS management software and setup tasks for on battery events.

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4 hours ago, Kisai said:

It's not going to do that when other cores are maxed out. I'm basically making the ask of "don't turn on any additional CPU cores, ever, if power draw >900w". My 11th gen i7 + 3070Ti at full tilt right now pulls 400w with both monitor powered on and all USB drives on idle. This would be a lot easier if the PSU had a communication channel to the MB to tell it the load.

 

Yes that's actually how it does work, CPU cores only pull high power when there is active load otherwise it's in a sleep state and power gated. Even if the CPU core is clocking high due to other cores the current is very low. An 8 core CPU with 4 active cores doesn't mean the other 4 cores are drawing the same amount of power, the idle ones are still idle.

 

And if you have a known workload and you know how much power draw it'll generate you can limit the process to a set number of CPU cores.

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On 5/18/2022 at 9:27 AM, SupaKomputa said:

efficient my ass, the system still run super hot and power hungry, what's the point.

Race to idle CAN be a valid strategy (less now than it used to be).
If you're able to do EVERYTHING very quickly, then you can shift the processor to a lower power state.

 

Alder Lake is a pretty efficient design (often more efficient than Zen 3 it seems) when you don't clock it aggressively. The issue is that Intel DOES clock it aggressively. Go check out the non-k SKUs for a comparison.

 

There are desktop cases where for higher performance, Intel is using less total system power draw (i.e. gaming). I suspect that for the same performance in a use case that only needs 8 threads, ADL would be ahead (but AMD pulls ahead on perf/watt when it throws MOAR COARS at the problem since Intel just throws more WATTs)


When AMD does win in laptops, it's often because the design is more pared down (fewer PCIe lanes and at lower speeds)
 

On 5/18/2022 at 2:28 PM, leadeater said:

3 CCD also much better for internal bandwidth, 50% increase gen on gen without any actual IF data rate increase. So probably is the most likely🤷‍♂️ 

This is an "it depends" case.

Conceivably we could go back to a CCX architecture. Think CCX of 6 cores, two per CCD. Yes, it's likely that bandwidth per-CCD would be a bit more constrained but it's also a case where you'd need to do less traffic to the IOD and back IF it's set up such that you can skip the trip to the IOD outright if the data is on the same CCD (this wasn't the case with Zen 2). Also for the same number of traces as a 3 CCD set up, you could conceivably have 50% more bandwidth per CCD assuming linear scaling per trace (no idea if this is valid).

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12 minutes ago, cmndr said:

Also for the same number of traces as a 3 CCD set up, you could conceivably have 50% more bandwidth per CCD assuming linear scaling per trace (no idea if this is valid).

Yep, would have to come as part of a major IF change for it though. Widening the bus would be great however could be a lot of reasons not to do this 🤷‍♂️

 

12 minutes ago, cmndr said:

Conceivably we could go back to a CCX architecture. Think CCX of 6 cores, two per CCD. Yes, it's likely that bandwidth per-CCD would be a bit more constrained but it's also a case where you'd need to do less traffic to the IOD and back IF it's set up such that you can skip the trip to the IOD outright if the data is on the same CCD (this wasn't the case with Zen 2)

The CCX's are actually still there, just not multiple per CCD. Allowing inter-CCX communication within a CCD might be quite difficult though as currently the IOD is the IF sync master so if you break that relationship then you'll end up in similar situation to Zen 3 and IF to IMC sync requirements.

 

Quote

The Infinity Scalable Data Fabric (SDF) is the data communication plane of the Infinity Fabric. All data from and to the cores and to the other peripherals (e.g. memory controller and I/O hub) are routed through the SDF. A key feature of the coherent data fabric is that it's not limited to a single die and can extend over multiple dies in an MCP as well as multiple sockets over PCIe links (possibly even across independent systems, although that's speculation). There's also no constraint on the topology of the nodes connected over the fabric, communication can be done directly node-to-node, island-hopping in a bus topology, or as a mesh topology system.

In the case of AMD's processors based on the Zeppelin SoC and the Zen core, the block diagram of the SDF is shown on the right. The two CCX's are directly connected to the SDF plane using the Cache-Coherent Master (CCM) which provides the mechanism for coherent data transports between cores. 

400px-amd_zeppelin_sdf_plane_block.svg.p

 

Above is Gen 1 IF (Zen) information but still broadly the case.

 

To allow inter-CCX on CCD you'd have to extend the SDF in to the CCD, likely defeating many benefits and the point of doing chiplets and CCDs.

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Fair point... pretty much anything involving communication requires overhead and part of the beauty of the CCD + IOD paradigm is segrating the uncore and placing it on a cheaper node.

The other possibility... think 6 core CCDs. It'd be interesting if a 6C Zen 4 matches an 8C Zen 3 in MT and beats it in ST.


Though that seems less likely since there are rumors/leaks showing 8C Zen parts.

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14 hours ago, leadeater said:

Use a larger UPS? 1500VA isn't the maximum possible on residential wiring and socket. That said above 1500VA gets rather expensive.

 

There are plenty, literally hundreds. I myself have an Eaton 9130 3000VA UPS and it transitions on to battery every day, multiple times in fact, with an active running load of 800W. It'll do this all the way up to the rated 3000VA/2700W no problem and has been tested. That's also how UPS are rated.

 

I didn't feel the need to clarify, North America. There are no 20A NEMA L5-20P outlets in a residence (some very-late construction homes have them in the kitchen explicitly for a grill/hotplate/rapid-boiling kettle.) I know higher VA ones exist, just not for consumers/business office users, and when you start looking at 2000VA you need to have an outlet wired with L5-20R. You will never find anything over 1500VA in a computer store in North America.

 

Which is why I made the point of using the weaker North America power, since I knew Euro systems have more power available.

 

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8 hours ago, Kisai said:

I didn't feel the need to clarify, North America. There are no 20A NEMA L5-20P outlets in a residence (some very-late construction homes have them in the kitchen explicitly for a grill/hotplate/rapid-boiling kettle.) I know higher VA ones exist, just not for consumers/business office users, and when you start looking at 2000VA you need to have an outlet wired with L5-20R. You will never find anything over 1500VA in a computer store in North America.

 

Which is why I made the point of using the weaker North America power, since I knew Euro systems have more power available.

 

No that's still not correct. USA every house is split phase, if you want like with anything else that requires it in a residential setting you can wire for combined phase and then plugin up to 3000VA UPS's. Or there is a range of APC UPS's up to 3000VA that do have 110V input option but as you say required higher output plug to be wired. Either way both these sockets are residential sockets and either found in homes or can be easily and reasonably cheaply installed. If you are paying upwards of $2k+ for a 3000VA UPS then the wiring cost isn't significant. 

 

You only loose 10% or 20% operating capacity, or none at all. Just depends on UPS design etc.

 

To say none exist just isn't true, you just can't plug it in to any residential outlets but you can if you require it. That's up to you to do it, not that it is not possible. You don't see 3000VA UPS's on store shelves because they are expensive and low volume, there is no reason to stock them but you'll be more than welcome to order one if you wish to purchase.

 

Up to 3kva is standard residential and office UPS anywhere, even here you need a 15A socket wired instead of a 10A to use 3kva and that's exactly what I did. I got a 4mm TPS cable run, C32 MCB and two 15A sockets. It's called paying for what you need, and it's not even that expensive, few hundred dollars. At least here 15A sockets accept 10A devices and plugs still, you aren't stuck with a special socket that only some things can use.

 

You would do this for a larger heat-pump/aircon or EV charger etc

 

image.png.903dda666e79c07037c664b652287f7e.png

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5 hours ago, leadeater said:

No that's still not correct. USA every house is split phase, if you want like with anything else that requires it in a residential setting you can wire for combined phase and then plugin up to 3000VA UPS's. Or there is a range of APC UPS's up to 3000VA that do have 110V input option but as you say required higher output plug to be wired. Either way both these sockets are residential sockets and either found in homes or can be easily and reasonably cheaply installed. If you are paying upwards of $2k+ for a 3000VA UPS then the wiring cost isn't significant. 

 

Again. We are talking about consumers, not purpose-built residences. You are hard pressed to find a 20A outlet in a home, and even in a kitchen, it's usually on a counter where'd you'd have a hotplate or kettle.

 

If someone is building a game computer and it's pulling 1000w from the wall, they will not be able to protect it with a UPS they can actually buy. This is the point you seem to not want to acknowledge. You're not going to build a new home or rewire one just to have a 20A outlet in your bedroom or home office just for a gaming computer. At least my dad had the foresight, 40 years ago, to have one outlet in every room on a separate circuit. Your average home, apartment or condo has 1 circuit for everything in the room, and that's why you see in American tv shows/films people fretting about blowing a fuse because they plugged a microwave or vacuum into the same circuit.

 

Maybe with more adoption of EV's, we will see people playing their gaming computers in the garage next to their EV because that's the only place where they can run their monster gaming rig.

 

The overall point doesn't change here NVIDIA, AMD and Intel can't keep pushing the power consumption up because the number of people who can actually operate it safely drops off a cliff at 900 watts.

 

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1 hour ago, Kisai said:

Again. We are talking about consumers, not purpose-built residences. You are hard pressed to find a 20A outlet in a home

I have a 1960's built house and it took a few hours, no it's very simple if you need it. Just pay for it. In to an existing room, next to existing sockets, I ran new wire and installed new high capacity 15A sockets.

 

"Just do it"

"When there is a will there is a way"

 

Your point is just wrong, your personal unwillingness to pay for an electrician to come in and do work just doesn't make what you said true.

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

rewire one just to have a 20A outlet in your bedroom or home office just for a gaming computer.

But I did and it didn't cost much at all....

 

I wanted it, I needed it, I paid for it, I have it.

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

UPS they can actually buy

Oh but you can, go to any APC retailer with the model you want to buy, pay for it, it'll turn up. Or simply ask "I want to buy a 2000VA UPS please".

 

I accept that you aren't willing to do anything like this, seems very clear you don't want to. I do not accept that UPS's do not exist for residential usage above 1500VA and nobody can use them.

 

Yes you are correct going above 900W in NA will cause problems, but it's not impossible to work with.

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On 5/18/2022 at 1:51 PM, orbitalbuzzsaw said:

170W TDP? Jesus christ, imagine the stock cooler

Bring it on......
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Small update to this story (a leak on the Chinese Chiphell forums suggests a Ryzen 9 7950x running @ 5.37GHz in a screenshot):

 

zen4clockspeedconfirmed.jpg.837d63d7732a7b0d8379f671988b4162.jpg

 

Quote

Greymon55, a well-known tipster has confirmed that the processor in this image is Raphael (codename for the Ryzen 7000 family), and has a peak boost clock of 5.45GHz. All the Ryzen 7000 parts will boost over the 5GHz mark under load across all cores. All the Zen 4 consumer CPUs will have an all-core boost of 5GHz.

 

https://www.hardwaretimes.com/amd-ryzen-9-7950x-to-feature-boost-clocks-of-over-5-4ghz-all-ryzen-7000-cpus-to-boost-over-5ghz/

https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-9-7950X-keeps-pace-with-Alder-Lake-s-best-in-leaker-s-optimistic-clock-predictions-for-key-Raphael-SKUs.621511.0.html

 

I will add this info to the OP.

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Seems like these leaks were fake.

AMD has officially announced Ryzen 7000 and the numbers are:

  • Up to 16 cores.
  • PCIe 5 support.
  • DDR5 support.
  • AM5 socket.
  • >15% single core performance increase.
  • 5GHz or higher max boost.
  • New AI-acceleration instructions
  • All (or almost all) Ryzen 7000 CPUs will include an iGPU.
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14 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Seems like these leaks were fake.

AMD has officially announced Ryzen 7000 and the numbers are:

  • Up to 16 cores.
  • PCIe 5 support.
  • DDR5 support.
  • AM5 socket.
  • >15% single core performance increase.
  • 5GHz or higher max boost.
  • New AI-acceleration instructions
  • All (or almost all) Ryzen 7000 CPUs will include an iGPU.

5.5GHz boost on the 16-core pre-production unit in game (from AMD keynote)

image.thumb.png.950205fb66495268ed74448f7a39cf14.png

 

And 170W PPT (power package tracking)

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10 hours ago, BiG StroOnZ said:

5.37GHz in

I doubt that. 5.47GHz at 4% utilisation seems a bit off

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, LAwLz said:

AMD has officially announced Ryzen 7000 and the numbers are:

  • All (or almost all) Ryzen 7000 CPUs will include an iGPU.

amd being a little sussy?

would the igpu cost a lot more, and what focus they will have? for gaming or like with intel just some graphic to be run.

it would be nice as seen with the previous issues to have an igpu for troubleshooting in all chips.

Edited by Quackers101
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1 hour ago, Quackers101 said:

would the igpu cost a lot more, and what focus they will have? for gaming or like with intel just some graphic to be run.

It's integrated into the new IOD which doesn't look very big to me. Even with the density moving to 6nm brings with it I'd have to guess it wont be very powerful, so yes similar to Intel desktop CPUs in that sense. Enough for general desktop and light usage, maybe some older or less demanding games, but it isn't likely to be a serious gaming solution.

 

Someone more determined than I am could estimate the IOD die size, and compare it against the existing 6nm APU to try and work out how much potential there is.

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1 hour ago, Quackers101 said:

amd being a little sussy?

would the igpu cost a lot more, and what focus they will have? for gaming or like with intel just some graphic to be run.

it would be nice as seen with the previous issues to have an igpu for troubleshooting in all chips.

It'll be so AMD has an answer for Intel Quicksync because that actually does make a huge difference when utilized, even with a dGPU in the system.

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8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

It'll be so AMD has an answer for Intel Quicksync because that actually does make a huge difference when utilized, even with a dGPU in the system.

Too bad AMD's encoding engine is terrible.

My guess is that is it more for office computers or needs like troubleshooting, or a temporary solution.

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7 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Too bad AMD's encoding engine is terrible.

My guess is that is it more for office computers or needs like troubleshooting, or a temporary solution.

RDNA2 encoder is a lot better though, not quite as good as Nvidia (or Intel) but it's not actually garbage anymore. Perfectly usable. The weakest use-case is for stream encoding, for something like Adobe Premier it's closer again.

 

But yea also highly useful for office computers, I'm sure HP and Dell have been bitching at AMD about that but also the Ryzen Pro APUs have been fine for this.

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