I want to love Apple, but they’re making it hard

[rikitikitavi]

2 hours ago, BondiBlue said:

I'm not. I used to work in a public school system with teachers who were very representative of "normal" computer users. A lot of them had higher end laptops or desktops for use outside of the classroom in their personal lives. Several of them did video editing as a hobby for friends and family. Some of them were photographers who used Photoshop to edit their photos. I won't say where I work now, but I'm not always around people like myself who know the ins and outs of a computer and how it all works. 

Keywords are 'several' and 'some', but it doesn't matter since those apps (or many other) aren't really so demanding that you need a beefy pc, unless the scale and complexity dictates it. Let's be honest - it is not like people never overpay for things they want (or think so), but don't need/use, or simply overestimate their needs.

No one is talking about Raspberry Pi being the plebeian standard. When you say 'higher end laptop' that sounds like an overkill made for demanding tasks. 

 

Here are two examples of non-techies I know: One does video editing as a hobby - never heard her complaining about old 12" MacBook, neither is another person who uses Photoshop as the primary work tool on a somewhat dated 'low spec' desktop. These examples are probably unreal if you check 'build suggestion' sub-forums where someone wants to upgrade a granny-build and receives a 'must have 12900K with AIO' solution lol.

 

3 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

I think you're underestimating what a normal user does, a video call while working on excel sheets often requires multiple monitors, or plenty of people do 3D modeling work, or photo editing which is alot easier when you have a dedicated GPU, not everyone has the space for a desktop and some need the portability of a 15" laptop with a GPU. What fits your needs does not fit the needs or use case of others.

Dedicated GPU is not a min requirement for such tasks. You can drive multiple monitors or work with 3D or photo edit with an iGPU or low/old dGPU with comfort given you are not going heavy (pro) usage.

 

2 hours ago, BondiBlue said:

Also, if you think many college students don't need decent computers you're mistaken. A lot of students, even high schoolers, need decent computers to complete their school work these days. When I worked at the school the vast majority of students had computers of their own, and if they didn't have one we could provide one.

Interpretation of a decent computer varies vastly for everyone here.

[BondiBlue]

17 minutes ago, rikitikitavi said:

Snip

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think I used a clear example earlier. Yes, you can get by with low end computers. That wasn't the point I was trying to make though. 

19 minutes ago, rikitikitavi said:

Interpretation of a decent computer varies vastly for everyone here.

I'm aware. The complexity of the tasks students may need to perform can also vary widely. I'm mainly meaning something that's a bit better than your average, low end laptop that a high schooler might have at home. 

[rikitikitavi]

32 minutes ago, BondiBlue said:

The complexity of the tasks students may need to perform can also vary widely. I'm mainly meaning something that's a bit better than your average, low end laptop that a high schooler might have at home. 

Fair enough. Low end / budget market is a tricky territory.

 

Edit:

 

32 minutes ago, BondiBlue said:

understand what you're saying, but I don't think I used a clear example earlier. Yes, you can get by with low end computers. That wasn't the point I was trying to make though. 

I guess I broad stroked you with previous responders, when this topic forked into performance base-line for a 'normal user'

[BondiBlue]

6 minutes ago, rikitikitavi said:

Fair enough. Low end / budget market is a tricky territory.

It absolutely is, and it's changed a lot over the past several years. These days a lot of "low end" laptops are actually very decent in a lot of ways. Gone are the days where every budget 15.6" laptop has a 1366x768 display with horrendous viewing angles, a mechanical hard drive as the boot drive, and old CPU options. 

[Imbadatnames]

I don’t get his issue. Honestly I don’t see anyone actually needed to upgrade the studio. If you’re dropping that much money on a Mac you will have a NAS. 
 

He’s also showing how little knowledge he actually possesses on technology by applying x86 thought processes to ARM.

[Imbadatnames]

14 hours ago, BondiBlue said:

It absolutely is, and it's changed a lot over the past several years. These days a lot of "low end" laptops are actually very decent in a lot of ways. Gone are the days where every budget 15.6" laptop has a 1366x768 display with horrendous viewing angles, a mechanical hard drive as the boot drive, and old CPU options. 

It’s more build quality that’s the issue now. Deck flex to make the iPhone 6 blush and just really poor keyboards and trackpads. 

[Paul Thexton]

36 minutes ago, Imbadatnames said:

I don’t get his issue. Honestly I don’t see anyone actually needed to upgrade the studio. If you’re dropping that much money on a Mac you will have a NAS. 
 

He’s also showing how little knowledge he actually possesses on technology by applying x86 thought processes to ARM.

It's worth saying again I guess: The choice of using x86_64 or ARM has nothing to do with user replaceable or upgradeable components.

[Imbadatnames]

4 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

It's worth saying again I guess: The choice of using x86_64 or ARM has nothing to do with user replaceable or upgradeable components.

Kinda does, especially with the implementation of the SoC allowing them to produce less waste units.

 

All in all its just a hit piece on apple for clicks without regard for the use case of the device or why this implementation is the way they went  

[Lightwreather]

1 minute ago, Imbadatnames said:

Kinda does, especially with the implementation of the SoC allowing them to produce less waste units 

Eh? Fairly certain Intel or AMD can do the same thing with their x86_64 chips.

[Imbadatnames]

1 minute ago, J-from-Nucleon said:

Eh? Fairly certain Intel or AMD can do the same thing with their x86_64 chips.

Nope, everything on apples end is controlled by the chip. The storage module is a lot less complicated on the apple machine. Plus there’s the whole security aspect and not being able to just swap drives as that’s rife for security exploits 

[Paul Thexton]

3 minutes ago, Imbadatnames said:

Kinda does, especially with the implementation of the SoC allowing them to produce less waste units.

That’s a design choice from Apple for their SoC. It’s not an ARM thing. 
 

It’s also clearly possible for Apple to sell matched pairs of storage modules (even if they recommend competent tech install due to the exposed power supply), they just choose not to - at least right now. 

[Lightwreather]

2 minutes ago, Imbadatnames said:

Nope, everything on apples end is controlled by the chip. The storage module is a lot less complicated on the apple machine. Plus there’s the whole security aspect and not being able to just swap drives as that’s rife for security exploits 

I meant, isn't is possible for Intel/AMD to implement an SSD controller on-chip as well? Could be wrong tho.

[DANK_AS_gay]

17 minutes ago, Imbadatnames said:

All in all its just a hit piece on apple for clicks without regard for the use case of the device or why this implementation is the way they went

No, they are offering valid points. A desktop should not be this locked down, as shown be Apple themselves with the MacPro. I understand that the ARM processor makes things a bit more difficult for Apple, but allowing an SSD in the unpopulated 2nd slot (on some models) would be a step in the right direction. Limited upgradeability is fine so long as it isn't actively there to screw over the consumer.

[Imbadatnames]

11 minutes ago, J-from-Nucleon said:

I meant, isn't is possible for Intel/AMD to implement an SSD controller on-chip as well? Could be wrong tho.

If they made an SoC. They’d have to move the controller onto the chip but the issue is that a lot of storage is managed through the chipset too on their systems. 

[Paul Thexton]

11 minutes ago, J-from-Nucleon said:

I meant, isn't is possible for Intel/AMD to implement an SSD controller on-chip as well? Could be wrong tho.

Not impossible but the volume of different chipsets and motherboard manufacturers that would also need to make changes to accommodate it, plus also the need for “storage modules” to be sold as well from all storage manufacturers, with firmware able to talk to all types of packages, makes it implausible.

[Imbadatnames]

6 minutes ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

No, they are offering valid points. A desktop should not be this locked down, as shown be Apple themselves with the MacPro. I understand that the ARM processor makes things a bit more difficult for Apple, but allowing an SSD in the unpopulated 2nd slot (on some models) would be a step in the right direction. Limited upgradeability is fine so long as it isn't actively there to screw over the consumer.

You’re compromising security then though and the target audience for the the studio will not care at all. Most will likely just keep the base storagee of the model they buy and use their NAS/DAS to actually store data on. It’s not really a desktop it’s a beefy SFF box, I don’t really expect this to be upgradable, it’s not a Mac Pro. 

[Paul Thexton]

2 minutes ago, Imbadatnames said:

You’re compromising security then though

How? If you swap components, you need to go to DFU and re initialise, same again if you then swap back, with the data stored in the modules via encryption (unless somebody had secretly broken AES), you’re at infinitesimally low risk of data being accessed that shouldn’t be. 

[Blademaster91]

19 hours ago, fulminemizzega said:

You can replace a flash module, what right now we know can't be done is upgrading to 2 modules. Maybe, just maybe, to run 2 modules you need to have 2 controllers enabled in the M1 chip. Maybe just one version of the M1 has 2 controllers (physically). What Apple is doing here is interesting, moving the flash controller inside the M1 chip and having more visibility into the flash memory from the software side could be useful in the upper layers of the storage stack (like the filesystem). It looks similar (to me) to what already happened a "long" time ago with memory (DRAM) controllers, x86 CPUs did not have them integrated before Nehalem or AMD K8. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_controller

And there, in the history paragraph: "While an integrated memory controller has the potential to increase the system's performance, such as by reducing memory latency, it locks the microprocessor to a specific type (or types) of memory, forcing a redesign in order to support newer memory technologies." Here Apple has put enough compute inside the flash modules to make different types of modules able to talk to the same integrated (non volatile) memory controller, avoiding this redesign need. I think you are being a bit unfair, I understand in this case there is no performance increase (?), but we already know how Apple uses this solution to make storage encryption more secure. One could argue that this level of security is not needed by "normal" users (whatever those are), and I agree on this point. But the advantage from the filesystem side... is interesting.

I'm aware the SSD used aren't the same as a regular NVMe SSD, although apple could've put a standard M.2 slot into the mac studio, or not make it so complicated to replace the SSD as that level of security isn't really needed in a desktop IMO.

19 hours ago, fulminemizzega said:

Unfortunately, no. There are performance and power efficiency reasons for soldered RAM. Having it as close as possible to the CPU package makes sense. If advanced packaging technologies become cheaper, I think more companies will start using this approach, an OEM could buy a stock of CPUs from Intel/AMD then ask them the amout of DRAM to solder on the package. The single chip becomes more expensive, but the motherboard becomes cheaper and easier to manufacture (way less fast signals going around, way less connections to make from under the CPU). I do not know any numers, maybe this is all rubbish (I have no crystal ball...).

The efficiency tradeoff doesn't really make sense on a desktop, and the option of user upgrades shouldn't be taken away on a desktop. I'd like to see onboard VRAM on a CPU, I think it would be a nice benefit for an iGPU as dedicated graphics cards are still very expensive. An OEM soldering on RAM makes sense from a business standpoint as its cheaper for the manufacturer to solder on RAM and gets the consumer to replace their device sooner, but its an anti-consumer move and manufacturers soldering RAM on laptops didn't make them any cheaper to purchase.

1 hour ago, Imbadatnames said:

It’s more build quality that’s the issue now. Deck flex to make the iPhone 6 blush and just really poor keyboards and trackpads. 

Not if you're comparing with similar priced business laptops, Thinkpads and HP Probooks have nice keyboards, trackpads are good on most laptops, but for any serious work I still want a mouse.

[NightyNight]

Dear LTT could you please benchmark the Mac Studio using the Topaz AI video enhancer vs a 3950x rtx3090 PC on your main  review if possible?

Thank  you

[Imbadatnames]

13 hours ago, Paul Thexton said:

How? If you swap components, you need to go to DFU and re initialise, same again if you then swap back, with the data stored in the modules via encryption (unless somebody had secretly broken AES), you’re at infinitesimally low risk of data being accessed that shouldn’t be. 

Thing is you don’t have to go into DFU. 
 

You’re assuming you’re taking the drives out. You can just insert one component and if the more permissions the port has the more vectors for attack you have. 

[Imbadatnames]

12 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

Not if you're comparing with similar priced business laptops, Thinkpads and HP Probooks have nice keyboards, trackpads are good on most laptops, but for any serious work I still want a mouse.

I work on laptops that start at £3000. They still all have deck flex, bad keyboards and horrendous trackpads. 

[Paul Thexton]

7 hours ago, Imbadatnames said:

Thing is you don’t have to go into DFU. 

Yes you do. You've changed the underlying storage chips to something the controller on SoC hasn't seen before. So either the data decryption for a chip form a different machine will fail, or it will be completely blank if a brand new module.

 

Being able to swap those things out without going in to DFU mode makes zero sense based on all of the videos so far where people have actually tried this.

7 hours ago, Imbadatnames said:

You’re assuming you’re taking the drives out. You can just insert one component and if the more permissions the port has the more vectors for attack you have.

No. The two modules are not separate "drives", they're just separated NAND packages that the controller would treat as a single volume.  If you had 1 module, and put in a second one that the system is prepared to accept, I still expect it to treat it as an invalid volume that needs reflashing.

 

Until somebody is prepared to spend the money required to buy a 8TB version, take one of the modules out, reflash it, and then see what happens when you put the 2nd module back in, we won't know for sure what exactly will happen.  Given that doing this will void the warranty with Apple, it'll take a very brave person to potentially write off that kind of purchase cost. We know from LTT's iMac Pro tear down that there are times Apple will refuse to fix units that the user opened up, even when the user says "I will pay you to do this" ...

 

 

[Jaesop]

On 4/11/2022 at 5:59 PM, DANK_AS_gay said:

Yes and? How does that apply? I was talking specifically about the people who say "You can get a much better gaming computer for $1000", or only care about price to performance, not about every laptop ever. 

You were suggesting that the only alternative to a MacBook is a gaming computer, as if there aren't slimmer non-gaming focused Windows laptops. You know exactly what I meant.

[DANK_AS_gay]

1 hour ago, Jaesop said:

You were suggesting that the only alternative to a MacBook is a gaming computer, as if there aren't slimmer non-gaming focused Windows laptops. You know exactly what I meant.

You are ignoring the second half of that post, where I stated the reason for bringing up gaming laptops, but let's take the bait.

 

Name a slimmer alternative with the performance of an M1. Any M1 (Apple Silicon). For the same price. You cannot. the "slimmer non-gaming focused Windows laptop" market is being cannibalised by the M1 MacBook Air.  And that's just performance. If you can find a device, new, from any brand, for the same price as a MacBook Air M1 (8 core GPU, to be a little more fair:$1,250), with good build quality (metal chassis, or a VERY good plastic one), as in equal to better, equal battery life or better, equal screen quality (color accuracy, dynamic range, pixel density) or better, while having the same performance, or better, in the same form factor, or thinner, and I will pay you $10. Straight up.

[HenrySalayne]

35 minutes ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

Name a slimmer alternative with the performance of an M1. Any M1 (Apple Silicon). For the same price. You cannot. the "slimmer non-gaming focused Windows laptop" market is being cannibalised by the M1 MacBook Air.

The Microsoft Surface Pro 2 from 2013 will win 4 out of 5 gaming benchmarks. You know why? Because a lot of games don't run on the M1.

 

I hope this makes the absurdity of this kind of discussion obvious. You cannot compare the M1 line-up even to older x86 Macs. All you performance and efficiency gains came at the cost of a complete compatibility annihilation.