I want to love Apple, but they’re making it hard

[DANK_AS_gay]

20 minutes ago, BondiBlue said:

I think you underestimate what a lot of normal users do. 

Teachers, Insurance brokers, Lawyers, Accountants, Nurses, Students (grades k-12, many college students don't need them as well), stay at home parents, mailmen, fast food, etc. The "normal user" is, according to the OECD, :

 

69% of people! nice 69% of people do not need much of a computer (as of 2016, may have changed due to COVID). I understand that you may be around more people who know about such things, but that is not representative of reality. 

Here is the source: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/skills-matter_9789264258051-en feel free to pay 70$, but I don't want to, so I am using multiple sources that cite that article to get a summary.

Edit; found a link to the PDF for free on that website that I missed. Not sure why they are charging 70$ and making it free to read at the same time. https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/skills-matter_9789264258051-en#page1

[BondiBlue]

7 minutes ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

I understand that you may be around more people who know about such things, but that is not representative of reality. 

I'm not. I used to work in a public school system with teachers who were very representative of "normal" computer users. A lot of them had higher end laptops or desktops for use outside of the classroom in their personal lives. Several of them did video editing as a hobby for friends and family. Some of them were photographers who used Photoshop to edit their photos. I won't say where I work now, but I'm not always around people like myself who know the ins and outs of a computer and how it all works. 

[Blademaster91]

48 minutes ago, Luscious said:

Voting with your wallet is one thing, but why doesn't the tech community confront Apple and demand an answer for their bullshit designs and decisions??? There's enough tech savvy people out there now to throw the hard questions at Apple and not be swayed by any illegitimate excuse or non-technical reasoning. I would even go so far as to say there's enough tech savvy consumers now following the tech community - clearly Apple ignores the fact that consumers have become far more informed now than they have been ever before.

 

You absolutely HAVE TO CALL THEM OUT when companies do things like this!!! Otherwise it will just get swept under a rug, forgotten and consumers will accept it as the normal. Except that companies getting away with anti-consumer-friendly bullshit like what Apple does IS FAR FROM what can be called "normal".

 

Imagine if the tires wore out on your car and the manufacturer said we can't change them, you have to buy a new car. Or the plumbing in your bathroom failed and the home builder said we cannot repair it, you need to buy a new home. That's the kind of STUPID MENTALITY Tim Cook has, and it is dangerous for our future.

I agree it is very damaging to our future, its bad enough people always want to throw away things just to buy the latest new shiny thing, and companies are copying apple by making disposable devices with soldered in RAM. Putting in an SSD which could be easily replaceable, but apple won't let you, is even worse and its incredibly wasteful.

And there are tech savvy apple users, but the amount of users that keep on buying from apple or defend them for the anti-consumer nonsense outnumbers the tech savvy people that call them out for anti-consumer things.

49 minutes ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

That doesn't mean everyone wants it. Most people don't even know what RAM is.

And that doesn't mean people shouldn't have the option to upgrade their storage or RAM later, the only reason companies solder in RAM or storage is so they can push you to pay exorbitant amounts for more RAM and storage.

34 minutes ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

Normal user: someone who uses their computer for day-to-day tasks that involve at most a video call and Excel sheets. Most people do not need, and do not want (the negative aspects of) a GPU in their laptop. If you need a buff computer for work, why get a laptop anyways? A desktop would be better price to performance, and have way more upgradeability. If you are getting a gaming laptop, why are you even thinking about MacOS? 

I think you're underestimating what a normal user does, a video call while working on excel sheets often requires multiple monitors, or plenty of people do 3D modeling work, or photo editing which is alot easier when you have a dedicated GPU, not everyone has the space for a desktop and some need the portability of a 15" laptop with a GPU. What fits your needs does not fit the needs or use case of others.

[fulminemizzega]

1 hour ago, Paul Thexton said:

Have you got a source for that? Reading through the info from Hector Martin (don't have a direct link, it was tweeted a few weeks ago now) it sounds like there are firmware blobs to handle modules from various vendors. If the modules had a controller chip on them (however 'mini' it is), wouldn't that be kind of redundant ?

Here is the thread from marcan42 https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1506039397174902787

 

[DANK_AS_gay]

17 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

 

I think you're underestimating what a normal user does, a video call while working on excel sheets often requires multiple monitors, or plenty of people do 3D modeling work, or photo editing which is alot easier when you have a dedicated GPU, not everyone has the space for a desktop and some need the portability of a 15" laptop with a GPU. What fits your needs does not fit the needs or use case of others.

I am not. https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/skills-matter_9789264258051-en#page1 the data starts on page 40 or so.

[DANK_AS_gay]

18 minutes ago, BondiBlue said:

I'm not. I used to work in a public school system with teachers who were very representative of "normal" computer users. A lot of them had higher end laptops or desktops for use outside of the classroom in their personal lives. Several of them did video editing as a hobby for friends and family. Some of them were photographers who used Photoshop to edit their photos. I won't say where I work now, but I'm not always around people like myself who know the ins and outs of a computer and how it all works. 

Sure, but are we going to ignore the real data I just replied? I made an incorrect assumption about yourself, but that data isn't talking about jobs and computer usage. It is talking about computer knowledge in general.

[DANK_AS_gay]

4 hours ago, Lurick said:

don't act like your opinion, use case, and choices are the best because the fit your needs and you can't see past the balls to the needs of others.

Actual data here: https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/skills-matter_9789264258051-en#page

That says that my "opinion" is correct. most people don't even know how to use a computer, and 69% nice of all users do, at most, browser work, like emailing.

[BondiBlue]

2 minutes ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

Sure, but are we going to ignore the real data I just replied? I made an incorrect assumption about yourself, but that data isn't talking about jobs and computer usage. It is talking about computer knowledge in general.

The only actual job I mentioned was teacher, and that was just to set the background for who those people are. You mentioned jobs and computer usage in one of your first replies to me:

39 minutes ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

Teachers, Insurance brokers, Lawyers, Accountants, Nurses, Students (grades k-12, many college students don't need them as well), stay at home parents, mailmen, fast food, etc.

Also, if you think many college students don't need decent computers you're mistaken. A lot of students, even high schoolers, need decent computers to complete their school work these days. When I worked at the school the vast majority of students had computers of their own, and if they didn't have one we could provide one. And before you ask, no, I didn't work in an area that was generally wealthier. 

 

The data in the study you keep linking is 6 years old. A lot has changed in those 6 years, especially with the pandemic. The amount of people who had to gain more computer skills in order to work from home was pretty significant. 

[DANK_AS_gay]

To clarify so that I don't sound raving mad, I am saying that for most users, the Macbook Air is fine. And that saying that "ApPlE BAd" is outdated at this point, and misleading at best. Am I saying that Apple is God himself? And that Tim Sweeney is the Messiah? No. are people taking it that way? Yes. I get that for gaming and power users, a Mac isn't ideal, I just ask that you don't discount Apple products.

[DANK_AS_gay]

2 minutes ago, BondiBlue said:

A lot has changed in those 6 years, especially with the pandemic.

 

46 minutes ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

(as of 2016, may have changed due to COVID).

Outdated data is better than anecdotal evidence.

[BondiBlue]

Just now, DANK_AS_gay said:

snip

Yes, I know you said that. I'm just pointing out that yes, it has changed in part due to the pandemic. I'm not saying that most people need a high end laptop or have a need for powerful hardware, but more do now than in the past. And more and more do every day. 

[DANK_AS_gay]

8 minutes ago, BondiBlue said:

Yes, I know you said that. I'm just pointing out that yes, it has changed in part due to the pandemic. I'm not saying that most people need a high end laptop or have a need for powerful hardware, but more do now than in the past. And more and more do every day. 

Fair enough. Really, when I was saying that stuff about gaming laptops, I was A. talking about a topic that had been brought up already, and B. making a point (poorly evidently) about the need of users.

Also, I think that data may be global, which would seriously impact computer literacy numbers. 

That, and to sum things up, a MacBook air M1 is a fantastic deal, with all of the features most people want/need. It has a GPU equivalent to a rx 560 (mobile), has a massive battery life (while still at full power while on battery power), which contrary to what Lurick said, is something people want, even if they don't necessarily need it, the best trackpad around (could use a higher polling rate at this point, will be updated with the next revision of the Air I think), one of the best screens around, it is quiet, thin, sleek, durable (metal chassis works wonders), and pretty darn quick, all while staying cool without active cooling. Shoot, the heatsink inside of it is completely flat. It more than suits users needs. But then you get people like SolarNova saying "Apple bad" off the cuff without thinking about all of this. My intention as the IT guy for my family is to get them the best device for them. Windows, MacOS, (not linux, no way in hell any of my family can use any distro besides ChromeOS), XboxOS or whatever the heck that is, Playstation OS, etc. I find them the best device for them, not the best device for them, unless the best is from a company I don't like.

[fulminemizzega]

18 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Putting in an SSD which could be easily replaceable, but apple won't let you, is even worse and its incredibly wasteful.

You can replace a flash module, what right now we know can't be done is upgrading to 2 modules. Maybe, just maybe, to run 2 modules you need to have 2 controllers enabled in the M1 chip. Maybe just one version of the M1 has 2 controllers (physically). What Apple is doing here is interesting, moving the flash controller inside the M1 chip and having more visibility into the flash memory from the software side could be useful in the upper layers of the storage stack (like the filesystem). It looks similar (to me) to what already happened a "long" time ago with memory (DRAM) controllers, x86 CPUs did not have them integrated before Nehalem or AMD K8. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_controller

And there, in the history paragraph: "While an integrated memory controller has the potential to increase the system's performance, such as by reducing memory latency, it locks the microprocessor to a specific type (or types) of memory, forcing a redesign in order to support newer memory technologies." Here Apple has put enough compute inside the flash modules to make different types of modules able to talk to the same integrated (non volatile) memory controller, avoiding this redesign need. I think you are being a bit unfair, I understand in this case there is no performance increase (?), but we already know how Apple uses this solution to make storage encryption more secure. One could argue that this level of security is not needed by "normal" users (whatever those are), and I agree on this point. But the advantage from the filesystem side... is interesting.

Quote

the only reason companies solder in RAM or storage is so they can push you to pay exorbitant amounts for more RAM and storage.

Unfortunately, no. There are performance and power efficiency reasons for soldered RAM. Having it as close as possible to the CPU package makes sense. If advanced packaging technologies become cheaper, I think more companies will start using this approach, an OEM could buy a stock of CPUs from Intel/AMD then ask them the amout of DRAM to solder on the package. The single chip becomes more expensive, but the motherboard becomes cheaper and easier to manufacture (way less fast signals going around, way less connections to make from under the CPU). I do not know any numers, maybe this is all rubbish (I have no crystal ball...).

[hishnash]

58 minutes ago, fulminemizzega said:

Unfortunately, no. There are performance and power efficiency reasons for soldered RAM. Having it as close as possible to the CPU package makes sense. If advanced packaging technologies become cheaper, I think more companies will start using this approach, an OEM could buy a stock of CPUs from Intel/AMD then ask them the amout of DRAM to solder on the package. The single chip becomes more expensive, but the motherboard becomes cheaper and easier to manufacture (way less fast signals going around, way less connections to make from under the CPU). I do not know any numers, maybe this is all rubbish (I have no crystal ball...).

In particular any system with a readably powerful iGPU/APU will benefit a lot from having memory on package. The industry accepts GPU memory cant be socketed since you just cant get the bandwidth needed within a readable amount of space and power for even a low end gpu.   I think we might well see a range chips from AMD, and Intel over the next few years that have on package memory intel have done this before for some iGPUs but in those cases have limited that memory to be only used for the GPU this waste a lot of power. 

[rikitikitavi]

5 hours ago, Lurick said:

I have a quality windows laptop that I can game on and when not plugged in gets me a good 8+ hours of battery life so who the fuck said all gamer laptops get 2 hours of battery life and who said everyone gives a crap about running their battery for days on end?

Looks like you have a fancy one and not a run of the mill 'cheap out on quality' laptop or a stereotypical power hungry chungus with a bloated power brick (did it cost a kidney lol).

 

Yeah, battery-wise there are always two distinct extremes:

- a laptop-first camp with the more independent from the power outlet you are the better

- a portable workstation camp, which you basically move from one desk to another, so battery is more like an afterthought

 

[hishnash]

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

Putting in an SSD which could be easily replaceable, but apple won't let you, is even worse and its incredibly wasteful.

Linus literally showed you its possible to replace the NAND modules, and people have replaced the NAND dies on M1 Macs as well (yes it needs some soldering skills but its not at all as hard as fixing water damage so you will find many many places that will find this quite easy). Remember apple uses of the shelf NAND dies from the supplies and supports many many different supplies and unlike almost every other SSD controller vendor apple provide the tools to rest the ssd controler to the public (yer you need another Mac, or linux computer to run them but that is nothing compared to what you need to reset the ssd controller from any other vendor).

Throwing away your entire NVMe driver and with it a perfectly working costly SSD controller and cache just to replace worn out NAND is the definition of e-wast! Being able to replace just the NAND modules without needed to replace the controller also saves money (the raw NAND dies are quite cheep!). 

[fulminemizzega]

13 minutes ago, hishnash said:

Remember apple uses of the shelf NAND dies from the supplies

If the controller is embedded on package, these are not off the shelf parts, they are as custom as it gets.

[hishnash]

13 minutes ago, fulminemizzega said:

If the controller is embedded on package, these are not off the shelf parts, they are as custom as it gets.

People have upgraded the NAND on M1 MBA with off the shelf dies.  With respect to these NAND modules they will have some on module low level controller, this could be within the NAND package but it could also be on the board or underneath the package... im sure someone will do this but it will take some time.

[Blademaster91]

37 minutes ago, hishnash said:

Linus literally showed you its possible to replace the NAND modules, and people have replaced the NAND dies on M1 Macs as well (yes it needs some soldering skills but its not at all as hard as fixing water damage so you will find many many places that will find this quite easy). Remember apple uses of the shelf NAND dies from the supplies and supports many many different supplies and unlike almost every other SSD controller vendor apple provide the tools to rest the ssd controler to the public (yer you need another Mac, or linux computer to run them but that is nothing compared to what you need to reset the ssd controller from any other vendor).

Throwing away your entire NVMe driver and with it a perfectly working costly SSD controller and cache just to replace worn out NAND is the definition of e-wast! Being able to replace just the NAND modules without needed to replace the controller also saves money (the raw NAND dies are quite cheep!). 

While it might be possible to replace the NAND dies, I don't see that being very likely for most users, maybe Linus could get those NAND dies, but not the average mac user.

And unless apple allows you to go into an apple store and buy a replacement storage module, and gives you a guide on how to use the software, I wouldn't expect the modules to be replaceable.

And throwing away a NVMe drive to replace it with another one is much less wasteful than having to throw away an entire desktop because the SSD failed out of warranty.

[fulminemizzega]

2 minutes ago, hishnash said:

People have upgraded the NAND on M1 MBA with off the shelf dies.  With respect to these NAND modules they will have some on module low level controller, this could be within the NAND package but it could also be on the board or underneath the package... im sure someone will do this but it will take some time.

Yes I'm referring to these modules for mac studio. Looking at photos, I can only see nand chips and capacitors, all I know is based on the marcan42 thread I linked a few posts ago.

[fulminemizzega]

3 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

While it might be possible to replace the NAND dies, I don't see that being very likely for most users [...]

And throwing away a NVMe drive to replace it with another one is much less wasteful than having to throw away an entire desktop because the SSD failed out of warranty.

The mac studio is not user serviceable, no average user is expected to do anything to the unit, besides maybe using it (if they so desire). The modules are not replaceable by users, this is clear.

Apple expects users to go to them for repairs, with or without warranty, so Apple will replace the module, it is just another customer's expense of money, maybe this is the only additional waste here. We'll se if they start an independent repair program also for this mac, but if the nand modules are using custom chips, only Apple will be able to sell replacement parts.

I'd like to point out that to service a mac studio you will have to handle the power supply board, and usually power supplies in desktops are full of warning stickers as it is considered dangerous to open a PSU, this could be another reason to keep users out.

[hishnash]

15 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

While it might be possible to replace the NAND dies, I don't see that being very likely for most users, maybe Linus could get those NAND dies, but not the average mac user.

Any board level repair place that does even simple repairs can easily source NAND dies even today let along in 5 to 10 years when these might need replacing. 
 

16 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

And throwing away a NVMe drive to replace it with another one is much less wasteful than having to throw away an entire desktop because the SSD failed out of warranty.

People are not going to be throwing away these machines when the SSD fails, if they intend to continue using them they will pay for it to be repaired these are not $100 chrome books. You cant be an advocate for right to repair and say users should just not repair, the only advantage of a NVMe driver over this solution is how long it is out of action as if an NVMe drive fails you can quickly go pick up one and replace it then send your failed drive to be repaired (however good luck finding a repair show that can do that as the software tools to reset the controller are not public).  

 

17 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

And unless apple allows you to go into an apple store and buy a replacement storage module, and gives you a guide on how to use the software, I wouldn't expect the modules to be replaceable.

Apple said that you will be able to go and pay them to replace these (outside of warranty) if you don't want to do it yourself they also said last year (like google and Samsung have said of the last few months) that hey will be making parts avoidable I expect these sorts of modular parts to be on that list, and apple already provide guides on how to use the DFU mode, this is the same guide that they already provide for people doing this on the 2019 macPro. 

 

[hishnash]

21 minutes ago, fulminemizzega said:

Yes I'm referring to these modules for mac studio. Looking at photos, I can only see nand chips and capacitors, all I know is based on the marcan42 thread I linked a few posts ago.

yep, apple might well be mounting the NAND dies directly ontop of the controllers, rather retain being one package. There is no good reason for them to be within the package given apple intentionally want to support as many NAND supplies as possible (to keep prices down and to ensure supply). 

[fulminemizzega]

3 minutes ago, hishnash said:

yep, apple might well be mounting the NAND dies directly ontop of the controllers, rather retain being one package. There is no good reason for them to be within the package given apple intentionally want to support as many NAND supplies as possible (to keep prices down and to ensure supply). 

It looks like it is just one package. On top, on bottom... which one is the top, which one the bottom? The area needed for a simple controller should be much smaller than a NAND die, so I expect it to be placed above the NAND die, on the "active" side. It is a BGA chip, so everything will be passivated and flipped... making it end below the NAND, if we look at the package from the outside as it is soldered on a board. Maybe I'm missing something, what do you mean by not being one package?

Why do you think there is no good reason? Apple can just order a bunch of NAND from different suppliers and have them add whatever they need on top/bottom. Or is it common for every NAND chip to have also some control logic embedded in the package?

[hishnash]

3 minutes ago, fulminemizzega said:

Apple can just order a bunch of NAND from different suppliers and have them add whatever they need on top/bottom. Or is it common for every NAND chip to have also some control logic embedded in the package?

NAND already comes in a package, it is already a stack of dies. If apple wants to just be able to order NAND its much simpler to buy it already in package rather than buying raw then pay for custom packaging, that is why I suspect the controler unit is layered behemoth the NAND package (it could be very small and even embedded within the PCB) someone will de-sodler these at some point and we will see. That said I suspect we will see these in the parts list apple said they would sell.