What to buy? BOSE QC 45 vs SONY WH-1000XM4

[greeatzy]

Hello all,

 

I need some help choosing the right headphones for me.

Im an electrician ona cutter suction dredger which means there is a lot of noise everywhere especially in our workshop because we have a big ass winch from the anchor on top of the workshop so let me tell ya when that thing starts screaming it requires me to put on my 3M peltor III earmuffs. The prob with earmuffs is they are not headphones. Sweating of ears after long periods of wearing, high pressure on head etc. Earmuffs I use in engine room etc. But would like to have something while in the workshop on the pc or doing something so I don't hear noise and listen to music.

 

Both Bose and Sony are a great choice. Im leaning towards bose because of the noise cancelling. Am I wrong? 

Give me your thoughts.

Thanks in advance

[Bhameck]

I have loved my previous generation Bose QC 35 II, I can wear them for 12-15 hours or more with no issues about comfort, battery life, or fatigue. They have a great build, and they have the best noise cancelling I have ever heard on a pair consumer headphones. I don’t have much knowledge of the pair from Sony, but I hope my own experience helps.

[Spuriae]

I concurrently owned a QC35 and 1000XM3 for a while, and the QC45 and XM4 arguably aren't noticeable improvements over their predecessors. Given the differences in pricing, I'd recommend the older models over the newer ones.

 

Bose is more comfortable than Sony for the average user. People with large ears and small heads might prefer the comfort on the Sony. In a dirty environment I'd probably prefer the button controls on the Bose over the swipe controls on the Sony.

 

The XM3 has slightly better noise cancellation. Noise cancelling wise I'd subjectively go XM3>=XM4>QC35=QC45, but they're all close.

 

I'd recommend Bose generally, but personal preference and pricing should be the biggest factors in the decision.

[OfficialTechSpace]

9 hours ago, greeatzy said:

Both Bose and Sony are a great choice.

Not sure what reputable source you heard that from, but both are quite poor. Incompetent tuning, paired with lackluster technicalities, and Bluetooth limitations. Anyone who tells you otherwise is simply an inexperienced consumer, and thereby not a real enthusiast of the hobby.

 

The Sony:

-Bloated bass response which bleeds into the mids

-Congested instrument separation that places all sounds on the same plane

-Relatively intimate soundstage, mostly in-your-head

-Compressed dynamics (typical Bluetooth characteristic)

-Treble frequencies lack any real resolution, and sound very lo-fi by comparison to most wired cans at this pricepoint

 

The Bose:

-Most of the above reigns true here

-Less bass, and a more controlled response (at least in the 'Active' mode)

-Better noise cancelling

-Arguably more comfortable

-Still not great

[Spuriae]

6 minutes ago, OfficialTechSpace said:

Not sure what reputable source you heard that from, but both are quite poor. Incompetent tuning, paired with lackluster technicalities, and Bluetooth limitations. Anyone who tells you otherwise is simply an inexperienced consumer, and thereby not a real enthusiast of the hobby.

OP said they want a portable noise cancelling headphone for physical work in a noisy environment. Everything you said was technically true (aside from the bit about Bose having better noise cancelling, IME), but I don't think OP is in the market for wired audiophile headphones.

[OfficialTechSpace]

10 minutes ago, Nimrodor said:

OP said they want a portable noise cancelling headphone for physical work in a noisy environment

Noise isolation is always superior to noise cancelling. There's a reason why at shooting ranges, they hand you protective isolating sets rather than a set of Bluetooth Bose cans. So really as long as it blocks out the sound (doesn't matter how) it should get the job done. The Sennheiser HD280 Pro's for example have up to 32 dB attenuation of outside sound.

10 minutes ago, Nimrodor said:

but I don't think OP is in the market for wired audiophile headphones.

Audiophile isn't a description of sound, it's a distinction between people. Consumers, and enthusiasts. People who appreciate audio, and those that don't. You can get a decent set of headphones that isolate well at that budget. It's unnecessary to avoid options considered acceptable by audiophile standards in order to seek out other traits, they can be one-in-the-same.

 

Not to mention, the tradeoffs of going Bluetooth are astronomical.

[Spuriae]

3 minutes ago, OfficialTechSpace said:

Noise isolation is always superior to noise cancelling. There's a reason why at shooting ranges, they hand you protective isolating sets rather than a set of Bluetooth Bose cans. So really as long as it blocks out the sound (doesn't matter how) it should get the job done. The Sennheiser HD280 Pro's for example have up to 32 dB attenuation of outside sound.

Passive isolation is high at high frequencies and low at low frequencies. The 280Pro has minimal isolation below 200Hz. ANC attenuates low frequencies. Passive isolation is better than active isolation when possible, but in this case the only passive isolation on par with ANC headsets is going to be either high clamp force safety muffs or deep insertion IEMs.

 

32dB NRR is not the same thing as 32dB broadband attenuation; neither is NRR a good metric for noise isolation as opposed to hearing protection (and arguably, it's a bad metric for hearing protection too). The manufacturer gets to determine the test fit, allowing them to inflate clamp-force related effects; the computation is designed to favor higher frequency (rather than more audible) attenuation; and the NRR algorithm lets you bake in A-weighting, leading to significant overstatement of low frequency attenuation; technically open air has a 16dB NRR at 125Hz.

 

Having worn both the 280Pro and Sony/Bose ANC headphones, the 280 provides nowhere near the same amount of attenuation. None of them hold a candle to proper open-backs sound quality wise, but that's not a relevant comparison; for this particular use case, ANC is the way to go.

[greeatzy]

5 hours ago, OfficialTechSpace said:

Noise isolation is always superior to noise cancelling. There's a reason why at shooting ranges, they hand you protective isolating sets rather than a set of Bluetooth Bose cans. So really as long as it blocks out the sound (doesn't matter how) it should get the job done. The Sennheiser HD280 Pro's for example have up to 32 dB attenuation of outside sound.

Audiophile isn't a description of sound, it's a distinction between people. Consumers, and enthusiasts. People who appreciate audio, and those that don't. You can get a decent set of headphones that isolate well at that budget. It's unnecessary to avoid options considered acceptable by audiophile standards in order to seek out other traits, they can be one-in-the-same.

 

Not to mention, the tradeoffs of going Bluetooth are astronomical.

 

4 hours ago, Nimrodor said:

Passive isolation is high at high frequencies and low at low frequencies. The 280Pro has minimal isolation below 200Hz. ANC attenuates low frequencies. Passive isolation is better than active isolation when possible, but in this case the only passive isolation on par with ANC headsets is going to be either high clamp force safety muffs or deep insertion IEMs.

 

32dB NRR is not the same thing as 32dB broadband attenuation; neither is NRR a good metric for noise isolation as opposed to hearing protection (and arguably, it's a bad metric for hearing protection too). The manufacturer gets to determine the test fit, allowing them to inflate clamp-force related effects; the computation is designed to favor higher frequency (rather than more audible) attenuation; and the NRR algorithm lets you bake in A-weighting, leading to significant overstatement of low frequency attenuation; technically open air has a 16dB NRR at 125Hz.

 

Having worn both the 280Pro and Sony/Bose ANC headphones, the 280 provides nowhere near the same amount of attenuation. None of them hold a candle to proper open-backs sound quality wise, but that's not a relevant comparison; for this particular use case, ANC is the way to go.

Thank you guys for the input.

My current setup is Sennheiser cx 300s wired ear buds and also on top of that 3M peltor optime III earmufs.

Let me tell you the cable isn't working.

I like to metion that I'm willing to pay more because I like quality sound and also if I'm in the mood that I can crank the volume up and not be disappointed.

Sending you noise sample so you know what we are up against in the beginning the bow thruster is running and later ono at 17sec the winch kicks in.  

*Sound meter app on phone - position of phone at work table height, winch only working.

elec ws winch and bow thruster.aac

[ShearMe]

On 12/2/2021 at 6:58 PM, greeatzy said:

*Sound meter app on phone - position of phone at work table height, winch only working.

I'm not sure how much help ANC is going to be in this scenario, to be honest. The microphones are going to clip at a certain SPL and then you'll have no cancellation. The Sony set handle clipping well in my experience with noisy work vans, but I wouldn't want to use them in any industrial setting. Next time I'm on a plane I should take some dB readings...

 

Haven't owned a Bose set to give any personal experience on them.

 

On 12/2/2021 at 1:53 PM, OfficialTechSpace said:

Audiophile isn't a description of sound, it's a distinction between people. Consumers, and enthusiasts.

Enthusiasts can recognize when their personal standards don't need to be met in another person's scenario. Audiophiles can't. <removed by staff>

Edited December 5, 2021 by SansVarnic
Removed content.

[Spuriae]

On 12/2/2021 at 4:58 PM, greeatzy said:

Sending you noise sample so you know what we are up against in the beginning the bow thruster is running and later ono at 17sec the winch kicks in. 

The loudest noise in the clip is the 1kHz motor noise (which I think is a harmonic of a 500hz fundamental). When it slows down slightly around 30 seconds the fundamental (~450Hz) seems to dominate. The chain rattles mainly at ~2Khz.

 

ANC on any of the models mentioned in this thread will heavily attenuate the fundamental, slightly attenuate the 1kHz harmonic, and basically have no effect at 2Khz.

7 hours ago, ShearMe said:

I'm not sure how much help ANC is going to be in this scenario, to be honest. The microphones are going to clip at a certain SPL and then you'll have no cancellation. The Sony set handle clipping well in my experience with noisy work vans, but I wouldn't want to use them in any industrial setting. Next time I'm on a plane I should take some dB readings...

The papers I read seem to suggest that airlines try to just barely make it under the 85dB(A) average required for occupational safety in the US, with peak levels consistently >100dB(A). I know smartphones aren't the most accurate for SPL measurements, but since the microphone used for the measurement in this thread didn't seem anywhere near clipping, I don't think ANC microphones will be too stressed either.

 

ANC microphone clipping is also normally only an issue with loops that rely primarily on feedforward microphones or microphones with improper frequency cutoffs, which shouldn't apply to any of the models discussed in this thread. The loop on the QC and XM series is dominated by a large electret inside the cups, where they have the additional benefit of passive isolation.

[ShearMe]

@NimrodorThanks, you've given me some good keywords to learn a few things. Didn't know about the different ANC implementations... thought it was as simple as DSP algorithms but now I know there are important physical setups as well! https://www.jabra.com/blog/anc-headsets-arent-all-the-same-three-types-of-anc/

 

So the "clipping" I thought I heard on some ANC sets is more likely a feed-forward design amplifying certain frequencies? This is a good thing to know... Most egregious example I have is the Shure Aonic 50. Hitting a road bump with tools clanking around in the back of a van gets you a painful burst of audio. Reminded me of clipping, but amplification makes more sense.

[Spuriae]

45 minutes ago, ShearMe said:

So the "clipping" I thought I heard on some ANC sets is more likely a feed-forward design amplifying certain frequencies? This is a good thing to know... Most egregious example I have is the Shure Aonic 50. Hitting a road bump with tools clanking around in the back of a van gets you a painful burst of audio. Reminded me of clipping, but amplification makes more sense.

I don't know much about the Aonic 50's circuit. Based on my experience with the original 1000X, if vibration/impact is the trigger, it could also be something like the microphone(s) not properly being damped or coupled to the headphone enclosure, or something like hair or fabric brushing against the internal feedback microphone.

 

If the trigger is loud noises alone, the most likely culprit is the feedforward microphone.

[Roswell]

On 12/2/2021 at 2:53 PM, OfficialTechSpace said:

Noise isolation is always superior to noise cancelling.

There isn't a pair of passive headphones in existence that can come close to proper active NC.

 

It's cool that you prefer wired headphones but that's not what's being asked for. Trying to justify it by making claims that passive isolation is superior to ANC is just absurd.

[jec6613]

On 12/2/2021 at 4:49 AM, greeatzy said:

Both Bose and Sony are a great choice. Im leaning towards bose because of the noise cancelling. Am I wrong? 

Have the Bose QC35's, and love them.  Fantastic when on a train or aircraft to block noise.  But neither Bose QC nor any Sony are OK for a noisy work environment, at least if you actually care about your hearing.

 

Instead, 3M has a product for exactly situation you're dealing with, and as a bonus, the microphones will let you take a call even in said noisy environment, and they're cheap, to boot! https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/cbgnawus1754/

 

In my experience, the sound quality is good, but more importantly they can be heard over machinery.  There's also a cap on max volume before you hit hearing damage, and the microphone's noise cancelling somehow lets you actually make/receive a call when operating power equipment or even in a datacenter with A/C failure and be understood (I think it's basically magic).

 

If you're curious, Bose does sell some level of hearing safety products in their aviation line, and also for the US Army mechanized and armor, but they're very expensive and all require wiring in.