US schools gave kids laptops during the pandemic. Then they spied on them

[Quackers101]

6 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

So I think the discussions about electronic devices completely misses the actual point.

 

You do not have a right to privacy while sitting in person in a classroom, and if you were either being disruptive to your fellow students or not paying attention, your teacher would have every right to call you out on it and every duty to pass act in some way to mitigate those selfharm expressions. A virtual classroom at home does not gain additional rights because it is remote.

 

However, likewise any and all monitoring outside of those times is often and should be strictly illegal and punishable.

which was touched on and said before?

then again not all "home teaching" would go under "public teaching" and can be at times private due to private matters.

For one reason or another, but if they should be allowed to control those they are having a classroom with? sure, but it can also depend on how much control should they be allowed for certain tasks remotely... more so if they are not shown when they are "spied" on or breaching privacy.

Like for instance due to covid, some are doing remote schooling and working, should their work be messed with by teachers due to whatever they think of their Computers content or such. (could get into political, religious topics and economical and ofc some privacy etc etc).

Edited October 13, 2021 by Quackers101

[Curufinwe_wins]

2 hours ago, Quackers101 said:

which was touched on and said before?

then again not all "home teaching" would go under "public teaching" and can be at times private due to private matters.

For one reason or another, but if they should be allowed to control those they are having a classroom with? sure, but it can also depend on how much control should they be allowed for certain tasks remotely... more so if they are not shown when they are "spied" on or breaching privacy.

Like for instance due to covid, some are doing remote schooling and working, should their work be messed with by teachers due to whatever they think of their Computers content or such. (could get into political, religious topics and economical and ofc some privacy etc etc).

Literally none of that is an answer or address to the extremely specific and clear line I drew with respect to dedicated managed time. 

 

Students tend to know when their classes are.

[CTR640]

You know, aren't we all having our heads entirely up our ass? I mean, what's the difference between schools loaning laptops and we, yes, WE, the consumers buying laptops and phones and YET we are still being spied on? We are still being monitored? Aka telemetry bullcrap and harvesting our private data? And I'm not partically talking about us adults but also like 14-16 years old girls and bois buying their first smartcrap to share their precious instashit pictures and that age, they're still kids. It doesn't make a difference, loaned or bought, young, old, ancient, we are all being monitored.

[leadeater]

10 hours ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

So lets be clear, there is a difference between monitoring programs while on in the dedicated time that the class is running vs monitoring outside of those hours. The first is 100% acceptable IMO and exactly how things work in a real classroom, with or without computers. The second is 100% unacceptable, for all the aforementioned privacy reasons.

Tools like AB Tutor to aid in classroom management when using computers for teaching and learning is extremely useful. Like you say it's how these are used and when that is important, not that they are used. Certainly not illegal either, unless being inappropriately used.

 

Anyone that has actually worked in the education sector knows how useful something like this can actually be. Not every school needs it, comes down to a lot of factors so I've only put AB Tutor in to schools I know will benefit from it.

 

If I were doing a larger deployment of loan devices to be used at home I'd probably look at dual boot Windows, one managed and one not managed. During class time you have to boot to the managed install and it's up to the teacher to check they are, AB Tutor will say if it can contact the device or not, or w/e they are using.

 

Whether at school or at home if you are in class time doing school work you are subject to the policies and conduct rules you agreed to when enrolling, especially if the device is school provided. Most schools will apply school rules to you at any time and situation, anywhere, if you are wearing your school uniform so people should have a think about that before complaining specifically about computer monitoring.

[leadeater]

6 hours ago, Salv8 (sam) said:

this kind of software shouldn't exist, PERIOD, anyone who thinks otherwise really needs a crash course on privacy and WHY IT'S A HUMAN RIGHT.
i will forever support the shutdown of this kind of bullshit, and you should to.

Become a teacher or IT support for schools and your views on that will change a lot. If your screen got locked at school by a teacher YOU were either doing something you shouldn't or it's time to pay attention to them because they are addressing the room and you should be listening not using the computer.

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

6 hours ago, Salv8 (sam) said:

this kind of software shouldn't exist, PERIOD, anyone who thinks otherwise really needs a crash course on privacy and WHY IT'S A HUMAN RIGHT.
i will forever support the shutdown of this kind of bullshit, and you should to.

Because this isn't hardware you own. This is hardware owned by the school/ Government. It would be a different story if it was something that was forced upon you to install on your own personal device. The argument with proctoring software still rages on. But if it's a machine that's loaned to you, don't expect any sort of privacy. That device provided should be used for its intended purpose only. If you want to go on chat rooms, shop on eBay, watch porn (this is something that actually happens on corporate networks I kid you not) or whatever, don't use a device that's been provided to you. And if you chose still do it, be aware of the risks and consequences. 

 

Just because it's a "human right" doesn't mean you can do whatever you want on someone else's stuff. Schools and businesses have policies on what their devices can be used for and they have the right to enforce those policies. There are many other circumstances where items that you borrow are being tracked. Think of your rental cars, library computers, etc.

[Gegger]

Not surprising at all.

 

I don't like that my school can monitor my correspondence, however I realise that I do not have any legal standing when it comes to privacy on a school device. The software my district uses has a tool that they may have enabled (have no idea) that screens for search terms related to self-harm, suicide, etc. I am very aware that the IT dept. can monitor my activities, not so sure about my classmates but surely high school students know...actually you never know. I have spoken to some classmates that share the opinion that snooping in messages or emails is unwanted, and some have paranoia about their internet activity related to LGBTQ+ may out them to parents that are unaccepting. Legally I may have no real right to privacy on this device, but my school has done a terrible job of informing students about their "privacy rights".

[WhitetailAni]

Wait this is surprising?

 

US Schools monitor and lock down everything they can. EVERYTHING.

Don’t want to use AdBlock Plus as your adblocker? Too bad.

Want to use Reddit at all? Nuh uh.

Want to watch a YouTube series? Half the videos are going to be blocked for no reason.

etc.

[IWolfieI]

Their mistake was asking teachers about this. I'm a SysAdmin for a school in the UK only a couple of our teachers actually understand how our monitoring and filtering software functions. As we provided devices to students we explain to the parents that the device is owned by the school and is our duty to monitor and filter the device, they then sign a document confirming they understand this.

 

Most of what's in place won't be to spy and scrap information it'll be to make sure bullying isn't happening, that a Web filter is in place as it's the schools duty to protect the child. There is more to it but it's all about the wellbeing of the student.

[suicidalfranco]

2 hours ago, IWolfieI said:

it's the schools duty to protect the child.

No it's not. It's the parent's.

[greenhorn]

I think the expression "With great power comes great responsibility" is also appropriate in this case.

I understand the need for some type of monitoring when the devices are at school and exclusively meant for school related activities. When used at home, where these devices might be the only pc/laptop that student has regular access to, it becomes a much more serious issue. Students AND their parents should be appropriately warned not to store any personal, non-school related stuff on there. In my opinion, it is not enough to rely on the entirety of teachers using these powers responsibly.

If I had a child who is a student and has to use such a device, I would at least buy a cheap plastic slider so that the webcam can be covered and I would consider trying to disable the inbuilt mic at a hardware-level (and provide another one that can be controlled by my child).

I suppose those devices have protections in place that prevent people from just booting into an OS from a flash drive (which would be a neat solution).

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

No it's not. It's the parent's.

No it's actually the school's while they are under school supervision. This is a legal requirement as well as policy requirements set above the school level at multiple different layers of government.

 

It is no different to a child getting injured at school or daycare or wherever, liability is on the person who is caring for the minor at the time.

 

You'd like to think it's the parents but it's not, in the same way a child is legally required to get school education and even if you choose to homeschool that right can be taken away and be forced in to public schooling.

 

It's also the governments responsibility to make sure you, a person/parent in general, aren't a horrible parent that is negligent, neglecting or otherwise more serious offences. Schools have a role in these situations, often even though they wish they were not.

[Lightwreather]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

No it's actually the school's while they are under school supervision. This is a legal requirement as well as policy requirements set above the school level at multiple different layers of government.

During school hours it is understandable.

However, from what I can understand of the article, it involved surveillance AFTER school hours

[mr moose]

25 minutes ago, suicidalfranco said:

No it's not. It's the parent's.

I'm getting tired of hearing this argument all the time.  Try being a parent in this day and age,  you simply cannot protect your child from 90% of what society will throw at them.  The best you can do is prepare them for what you think they will encounter.  But given today's tech/social media changes so often good luck with that. And lets not forget, if parents successfully block internet nastiness at home, but they get to watch it on a schools device then who's responsibility is that?  Not the parents fault. 

 

It's just not that simple.  Go too far and you ostracize them from peer development,  don't go far enough and they become victims of their own ignorance.   And just where that sweet spot is requires every parent know and understand every aspect of their child's social and formal life.  Not going to happen.

 

And just to hammer home the point, when my son was 8 he watched a man die on youtube on a schools computer during class time at school.  Not a single thing I could to stop that.

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, J-from-Nucleon said:

During school hours it is understandable.

However, from what I can understand of the article, it involved surveillance AFTER school hours

I would suggest separation of points and specific events and also inaccuracies of reported events. It doesn't change what schools should or can do, inappropriate usage of computer monitoring doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

 

To raise the dark point in the room, not all teachers are or have been safe to be around children and that is not a technology issue. I have personally been involved in data evidence collection on more than one occasion for this type of thing, so yea... speaking from experience.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I would suggest separation of points and specific events and also inaccuracies of reported events. It doesn't change what schools should or can do, inappropriate usage of computer monitoring doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

 

To raise the dark point in the room, not all teachers are or have been safe to be around children and that is not a technology issue. I have personally been involved in data evidence collection on more than one occasion for this type of thing, so yea... speaking from experience.

Having spent the last 10 years working in schools as an integration aid/student support,  I have seen way more than I wish to of shit things from parents, teachers and other students.   It's just grossly ignorant to think the only people who should be responsible for kids are the parents.  Everyone needs to be looking out for them (hence the mandatory reporting laws we now have).

[Moonzy]

I'm personally against reading private mails, even if they're minors, everyone deserves privacy, and I know people are against this

 

But the main issue is, were the people using the machine aware of such monitoring is happening? That's important, because if they are aware of it then I'm absolutely fine with it as long as they are fine with it

But if it's not disclosed then it's absolutely abusing the trust that minors have in them

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, Moonzy said:

But the main issue is, were the people using the machine aware of such monitoring is happening? That's important, because if they are aware of it then I'm absolutely fine with it as long as they are fine with it

But if it's not disclosed then it's absolutely abusing the trust that minors have in them

Usually when giving a school device on loan you have to sign a loan agreement and pay a bond, this is where it's also verbally explained that the device is controlled and monitored by the school even though it's written in the agreement, because who really signs everything they read. Important things like that have to be specifically pointed out, just the responsible thing to do.

 

Can't say this will always been done though.

[IWolfieI]

24 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

I'm personally against reading private mails, even if they're minors, everyone deserves privacy, and I know people are against this

 

But the main issue is, were the people using the machine aware of such monitoring is happening? That's important, because if they are aware of it then I'm absolutely fine with it as long as they are fine with it

But if it's not disclosed then it's absolutely abusing the trust that minors have in them

It should be explained as leadeater said when the device is given to the parent. As for emails all parents have to sign a data consent form that explains that we have the right to access their emails.

Now we don't go doing that when we feel like it. It's only ever done when there is legitimate concern about a vulnerable student, often triggered by monitoring software. These emails and any supporting evidence are sent to the schools safeguarding lead. I've personally dealt with investigations of cyber bullying, self harm and abuse at home.

Whilst everyone deserves privacy, it is everyone's duty in a school to look out for the wellbeing of a child. You need to remember not all students have happy households and these are sometimes the only clues for vulnerable students.

 

[Sauron]

13 hours ago, Haaselh0ff said:

As literally everyone else seems to be saying, a school device is akin to a work device and the school still owns the device and is free to do whatever they want with it. If a student is using the device they are (usually) required to sign a waiver saying that the school is monitoring their device and they understand that they have the ability to look up and see what they're doing at any time. If you don't want to be watched, dont use a device you don't actually own.

Yeah, too bad most of these students didn't really have a choice... school attendance is mandatory and during the lockdowns the only way to attend has been online. If a students couldn't afford their own device then they were forced to take what the school gave them.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Sauron said:

Yeah, too bad most of these students didn't really have a choice... school attendance is mandatory and during the lockdowns the only way to attend has been online. If a students couldn't afford their own device then they were forced to take what the school gave them.

So they are no worse of than they were before lock downs.   They didn't have a PC for personal use then and they still don't now.  

[Sauron]

20 minutes ago, mr moose said:

So they are no worse of than they were before lock downs.   They didn't have a PC for personal use then and they still don't now.  

Except that, again, the lockdowns forced them inside and may have created a need for a PC that wasn't there before. Also I don't think it's particularly fair to place children in a situation where they need to read the fine print or risk their privacy being invaded.

[fUnDaMeNtAl_knobhead]

why do they give out the devices in the first place if they don't trust you?

[Quackers101]

53 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Usually when giving a school device on loan you have to sign a loan agreement and pay a bond, this is where it's also verbally explained that the device is controlled and monitored by the school even though it's written in the agreement, because who really signs everything they read. Important things like that have to be specifically pointed out, just the responsible thing to do.

 

Can't say this will always been done though.

and for some, some of these devices is not just loaned or by after time be bought AND owned devices.

and still since the device is going to be used not on just the school (could be a requirement to leave it there which would complicate other things).

But I could understand if they dont want a bricked loaned device or malware on it, or other spying content on the device for future students.

8 hours ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Literally none of that is an answer or address to the extremely specific and clear line I drew with respect to dedicated managed time. 

 

Students tend to know when their classes are.

I'm just saying they don't need this control all the time, and they should respect peoples privacy. As for using it AT the school would be less complicated and through schools servers. "tend to know when their classes are", but when do they remotely know they are in the "classroom"? aka when does the access start and end, and will the students know this or not? As to why I mentioned the teacher leaving on this camera too after class, as that is at least or can be easier to know since THEY put it ON than a teaching using YOUR device? (of course software can be obscure at times or just fail).

 

when the "classroom" gets into your home, then it likely touches on other stuff that people mentioned in this thread. From doing other projects and/or other types of work, if they should or shouldn't do so? isn't that more up to the student? (of course some control can be nice). I just find it a bit shady.

[IWolfieI]

17 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

and for some, some of these devices is not just loaned or by after time be bought AND owned devices.

and still since the device is going to be used not on just the school (could be a requirement to leave it there which would complicate other things).

But I could understand if they dont want a bricked loaned device or malware on it, or other spying content on the device for future students.

I'm just saying they don't need this control all the time, and they should respect peoples privacy. As for using it AT the school would be less complicated and through schools servers. "tend to know when their classes are", but when do they remotely know they are in the "classroom"? aka when does the access start and end, and will the students know this or not? As to why I mentioned the teacher leaving on this camera too after class, as that is at least or can be easier to know since THEY put it ON than a teaching using YOUR device? (of course software can be obscure at times or just fail).

 

when the "classroom" gets into your home, then it likely touches on other stuff that people mentioned in this thread. From doing other projects and/or other types of work, if they should or shouldn't do so? isn't that more up to the student? (of course some control can be nice). I just find it a bit shady.

So you need to remember these are not owned by the student or their family, these are owned by the school. Therefore the school needs to provide web filtering and monitoring as the devices are often locked down to prevent students installing whatever they want. Due to this parents can't their own monitoring or filtering software.

 

This means the school has to provide it at all times or the school could be blamed for little Jimmy coming across something he shouldn't. Yes there are other solutions that don't need to be installed on the device, but the parents may not know this. As long as owned by the school, it is the schools responsibility.

 

These devices are provided so that students can participate in classes and do homework, this means that after school hours it's still a school device, not a personal device.