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With M1X Macs now mere weeks away, Intel’s cringey PR is at it again

saltycaramel

As you can see in the die photo above console APUs are a massive GPU and small CPUs, because that's what's needed in consoles. PC APUs are big CPU and small GPU because that's what makes most sense there. Both approaches are fine on a signle die, but both big CPU AND big GPU wouldn't, hence why they're separate on PCs. 

F@H
Desktop: i9-13900K, ASUS Z790-E, 64GB DDR5-6000 CL36, RTX3080, 2TB MP600 Pro XT, 2TB SX8200Pro, 2x16TB Ironwolf RAID0, Corsair HX1200, Antec Vortex 360 AIO, Thermaltake Versa H25 TG, Samsung 4K curved 49" TV, 23" secondary, Mountain Everest Max

Mobile SFF rig: i9-9900K, Noctua NH-L9i, Asrock Z390 Phantom ITX-AC, 32GB, GTX1070, 2x1TB SX8200Pro RAID0, 2x5TB 2.5" HDD RAID0, Athena 500W Flex (Noctua fan), Custom 4.7l 3D printed case

 

Asus Zenbook UM325UA, Ryzen 7 5700u, 16GB, 1TB, OLED

 

GPD Win 2

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1 hour ago, Dracarris said:

Just now I wanted to check again on the pricing of the MBA. When I clicked on "Buy", Apple showed me this:

 

1578408552_ScreenShot2021-10-08at13_05_36.png.ee8932e25e404552c27acadeb9128059.png

 

Apple, what are you hiding there?

Edit: This shows up for trying to buy every product on their page and not only on the US version. Huh?

For me it just works:

image.thumb.png.108d84d6da217805ff9e98f78407a715.png

Maybe it was somekind of maintainance?

"A high ideal missed by a little, is far better than low ideal that is achievable, yet less effective"

 

If you think I'm wrong, correct me. If I've offended you in some way tell me what it is and how I can correct it. I want to learn, and along the way one can make mistakes; Being wrong helps you learn what's right.

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1 hour ago, J-from-Nucleon said:

For me it just works:

 

Maybe it was somekind of maintainance?

The posted reopening time was like 15 minutes after this post was made

F@H
Desktop: i9-13900K, ASUS Z790-E, 64GB DDR5-6000 CL36, RTX3080, 2TB MP600 Pro XT, 2TB SX8200Pro, 2x16TB Ironwolf RAID0, Corsair HX1200, Antec Vortex 360 AIO, Thermaltake Versa H25 TG, Samsung 4K curved 49" TV, 23" secondary, Mountain Everest Max

Mobile SFF rig: i9-9900K, Noctua NH-L9i, Asrock Z390 Phantom ITX-AC, 32GB, GTX1070, 2x1TB SX8200Pro RAID0, 2x5TB 2.5" HDD RAID0, Athena 500W Flex (Noctua fan), Custom 4.7l 3D printed case

 

Asus Zenbook UM325UA, Ryzen 7 5700u, 16GB, 1TB, OLED

 

GPD Win 2

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10 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

Just what @Johners said immediately after.

CPU+GPU are on the same die on latest gen consoles.

There are other chips for other purposes (networking, etc.), just like on a M1 Mac motherboard.

But the GPU is an “integrated”, in PC parlance.

Just like on M1 Macs (so far…I suspect they’ll need to come up with discrete GPUs once they get to the point of creating a successor to the Intel MacPro).

 

Here’s an xbox series X die shot

 

 

CC2383EA-2D7D-4800-9865-C19E33B3958C.jpeg

That’ll do it. So why does the 5700g have a vega gpu and why are the newer ones still so power short then?  Beating them by just a little, which seems to be the current plan, makes intel chips look OK.  If they can easily easily step out of striking range of intel CPUs if they want, why are they not laying on the hurt?  Must be a reason.

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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On 10/7/2021 at 1:39 AM, Spindel said:

Of the software that I use that is x86 it runs everything with no problems (or at least with no more problems than that software had on my intel mac, I'm looking at you OneDrive you piece of shit software).

 

But to be honest for work I do the software that is not AS native it's mainly AutoCAD, MS Teams and OneDrive (and the odd session of some other software that is not native i e TeamViewer from time to time etc). The rest is office suite that is native, outlook etc.

The only game I do play on my computer is Civ 6 (and it is x86) through Steam and that runs good and round times are waaaaaaay faster than my old iMac and I can run on higher graphics settings (the iMac had a GTX780M so it was an old graphics card, but it was still very much faster than the intel integrated graphics on the newest intel macs).  

I don’t like cloud storage at all myself, good or not.  I don’t have a lot of choice with an iPhone, but I’m working on it.  

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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7 hours ago, Kilrah said:

The posted reopening time was like 15 minutes after this post was made

A ceremonial iron for well placed irony.  I hope it doesn’t mean something weird.  Emoji language is beyond my Ken.

 

 

1842E3AA-7323-45EF-8C1E-AEFFF5C9ADBB.jpeg

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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10 hours ago, Laborant said:

 

 

Yes, at least Vivado (and Quartus as well) has good Linux support - but that's strictly on x86. To my knowledge, there is (outside of the inofficial Windows 10 ARM VM) no possibility to run non-Mac x86-Software on an M1 Mac.

While you can run a Linux VM on an Apple Silicon Mac, it won't run x86 code - that's a non-issue for open-source software, but for Vivado and Quartus, you can only download a precompiled x86 binary. As Quartus is owned by Intel (formerly Altera) and Vivado is soon to be owned by AMD (still Xilinx) I highly doubt that these companies will offer an ARM version anytime soon.

I thought people did that all the time with windows games.  It was the whole reason the M1 was looked on so highly.  Even running windows native stuff it was competitive with windows native machines.  Might not apply to Linux though.  Would depend on how they did it.  My memory was they were doing a kernel system FOR the m1. Ignoring Rosetta entirely.  MacOS is a BSD fork, so it can’t be too terribly foreign.  Unless of course apple refuses to release critical info.  Which would be like apple.

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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10 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

 

 

Many things “could” be done but don’t make sense from a financial standpoint, from a manufacturing standpoint, from a software standpoint (on consoles, games will be tailored to that specific integrated GPU for years), etc.

 

CPUs/APUs/SoCs need to make sense based on their purpose and the returns on the investment. 

 

There’s only one chip maker (that I know of) with zero OEM customers: Apple. Their CPUs are designed only for their own usage. They don’t need to make financial sense strictly, it’s enough that the final product as a whole makes sense. Kinda like game consoles.

The competition aspect is pretty strong though.  They’ve already got jaguar2 built, and if all they need to do is update it a bit to make it full ryzen2, not even ryzen3 it would be a better chip for a bunch of what people bought the new g chips for. A lot of people bought the 5700g thinking it WAS going to be like that.  (And were disappointed) Plus there’s the cryptocrunch to push it harder.  “Go AMD and you won’t neeeed no steeenkin GPU”can be a real powerful motivator for switching which is straight up market share. 

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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10 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

Just like on M1 Macs (so far…I suspect they’ll need to come up with discrete GPUs once they get to the point of creating a successor to the Intel MacPro).

Probably sooner, the current M1 GPU is likely tapping out the memory bandwidth as it is. There will be some performance gain with a bigger GPU but anything that actually need quite a bit of memory bandwidth should already be on the limit of performance for the LPDDR4X.

 

The consoles can do what they can because of the very wide GDDR memory bus and much large memory bandwidth, 68GB/s vs 448GB/s / 560GB/s.

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27 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I thought people did that all the time with windows games.  It was the whole reason the M1 was looked on so highly.  Even running windows native stuff it was competitive with windows native machines.  Might not apply to Linux though.  Would depend on how they did it.  My memory was they were doing a kernel system FOR the m1. Ignoring Rosetta entirely.  MacOS is a BSD fork, so it can’t be too terribly foreign.  Unless of course apple refuses to release critical info.  Which would be like apple.

Rosetta is a dynamic recompiler, it's not that far off from how N64 HLE, GC/Wii/WiiU / PS2/PS3 emulation works. It's not recompiling it at the OS level, it's recompiling it at the library level. If you know and control the library, you can dynamically recompile anything that uses that library. That's why you can't just "install windows" or "install linux" on it, it's not a hardware emulator.

 

The reason IMO they can get Linux on the M1 in the first place is because the Mach Kernel has always been open source. That's also the same reason Hackintosh's have been possible. Whatever drivers they need to make to get the OS to boot, they can port from DarwinOS. That will obviously do nothing for the GUI, since the GUI invokes Apple libraries that won't exist on Linux.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Rosetta is a dynamic recompiler, it's not that far off from how N64 HLE, GC/Wii/WiiU / PS2/PS3 emulation works. It's not recompiling it at the OS level, it's recompiling it at the library level. If you know and control the library, you can dynamically recompile anything that uses that library. That's why you can't just "install windows" or "install linux" on it, it's not a hardware emulator.

 

The reason IMO they can get Linux on the M1 in the first place is because the Mach Kernel has always been open source. That's also the same reason Hackintosh's have been possible. Whatever drivers they need to make to get the OS to boot, they can port from DarwinOS. That will obviously do nothing for the GUI, since the GUI invokes Apple libraries that won't exist on Linux.

 

 

Those GUI libraries are OS level though.  Most of them anyway.  There’s linuxes for lots of weird CPUs. All of whom would have had that problem to one degree or another. Took a long time to get distros for Pis other than  raspberry’s own thing.  BSDs actually beat Linux to the punch by a good bit there.

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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On 10/5/2021 at 4:28 PM, saltycaramel said:

Summary

Intel recently published a supposed “social experiment” (judge by yourself if the reactions look genuine or scripted) in which Apple fans (allegedly) are confronted with the amazing world of customization, cheap memory upgrades after the fact and wild form factors that lies outside of the Apple bubble. 

 

Video

 

My thoughts

We are now just a few weeks away from the 10-core M1X Macs (2 Macbook Pros and possibly 1 Mac Mini), the timing of this ad may not be a coincidence. I see cringe, “nerdy” tone deafness, failing to acknowledge what the Apple “spell” is all about. And honestly faux social experiments belong to clickbaity youtubers, not to a company at the pinnacle of chip design. I get that PR is a separate team from engineering, but I thought the new leadership at Intel was supposed to stop it with this kind of self-deprecating smell-of-desperation PR stunts.  

 

Also, since already 90% of desktop/laptop users live outside of the Mac bubble, why is Intel acting so nervous and proactive to convert that 10% of Mac users? What are they afraid of? Are they connecting the dots about the M1, the M1X and the M2’s hard to beat perf-per-watt and perf-per-buck?

 

The more Intel and MS embarrass themselves with this kind of ad campaigns, the more I know Apple is onto something with these new custom silicon Macs.

Might I play Devil's advocate here for a moment, and suggest that the likes of those of us who've signed-up for LTT forum memberships aren't necessarily the target market, here...?

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Vegeta: Nappa! Let's get off this planet! CRINGE LEVEL IS OVER 9000!!!!

Nappa: OVER 9000????!!! THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE! FUCK THIS PLANET!!!!!

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Headphones: Klipsch Heritage HP-3 Walnut, Meze 109 Pro, Beyerdynamic Amiron Home, Amiron Wireless Copper, Tygr 300R, DT880 600ohm Manufaktur, T90, Fidelio X2HR

CPU: Intel 4770, GPU: Asus RTX3080 TUF Gaming OC, Mobo: MSI Z87-G45, RAM: DDR3 16GB G.Skill, PC Case: Fractal Design R4 Black non-iglass, Monitor: BenQ GW2280

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7 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

Vegeta: Nappa! Let's get off this planet! CRINGE LEVEL IS OVER 9000!!!!

Nappa: OVER 9000????!!! THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE! FUCK THIS PLANET!!!!!

Science fiction has been about just that for many years.  Seems there’s no way to do that though.  

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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22 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Science fiction has been about just that for many years.  Seems there’s no way to do that though.  

Damn it!

DAC/AMPs:

Klipsch Heritage Headphone Amplifier

Headphones: Klipsch Heritage HP-3 Walnut, Meze 109 Pro, Beyerdynamic Amiron Home, Amiron Wireless Copper, Tygr 300R, DT880 600ohm Manufaktur, T90, Fidelio X2HR

CPU: Intel 4770, GPU: Asus RTX3080 TUF Gaming OC, Mobo: MSI Z87-G45, RAM: DDR3 16GB G.Skill, PC Case: Fractal Design R4 Black non-iglass, Monitor: BenQ GW2280

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15 hours ago, FruitOfTheLum said:

Might I play Devil's advocate here for a moment, and suggest that the likes of those of us who've signed-up for LTT forum memberships aren't necessarily the target market, here...?

That's absolutely true... but Intel is arguably still on the wrong track.

 

Campaigns like this can backfire by drawing attention to products customers might have otherwise ignored, especially when there's a strong whiff of desperation (see: Samsung's ads mocking iPhone lineups). Apple might look like the cool one, and Intel is effectively admitting that it can't compete on raw performance by focusing on variety and customization.

 

That and the golden rule in comparison ads is to punch up, not down. Intel, Microsoft and Samsung have floundered with efforts like this because they come across as the unfeeling megacorporations telling you to conform, submit and obey, to roll with the status quo instead of thinking for yourself. Apple isn't exactly counterculture anymore, but its "I'm a Mac" ads worked in part because it was the interesting alternative in an era when stuffy, boring Windows was still the centre of the tech world.

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This is a better version of the ad fixed by MKBHD

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USn9EWaaBnc

I have an ASUS G14 2021 with Manjaro KDE and I am a professional Linux NoOB and also pretty bad at General Computing.

 

ALSO I DON'T EDIT MY POSTS* NOWADAYS SO NO NEED TO REFRESH BEFORE REPLYING *unless I edit my post

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1 hour ago, linux fanboy said:

This is a better version of the ad fixed by MKBHD

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USn9EWaaBnc

I agree that apple needs to allow a Linux on its machines. Or at the very very least a BSD (because they’re really very similar and BSD can run Linux apps) the command line remains insanely powerful.  Big advantage of BSD over Linux atm imho is no Lennart Poettering

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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On 10/5/2021 at 7:42 PM, r821e228 said:

Not sure why but it makes me really mad when they do cringe stuff, if Apple stuff wasn't so freaking expensive I'd have switched long ago. Reminds me of the Microsoft Surface ad 

My family is on the same page really. 

We all use iphones, ipads, but the other stuff is just sooo much more than alternatives that its really not worth it. We have debated not upgrading out phones for a couple years to replace our... frankly, terrible.... windows laptop, with maybe a 8gbram 512gbstorage m1 macbook air, but its a lot of money to spend on a laptop when I can get a windows machine that can do what i want it to (mostly web bassed stuff) for half the price at walmart.

 

But a full ecosystem like that is so tempting. I cant think of the number of times ive been having a conversation on my phone over text while sitting using a laptop. Having that texting on my laptop would be so convient.

 

AND AMG AIRDROP IS SOMTHING THAT IS SO HELPFUL SOMETIMES

I could use some help with this!

please, pm me if you would like to contribute to my gpu bios database (includes overclocking bios, stock bios, and upgrades to gpus via modding)

Bios database

My beautiful, but not that powerful, main PC:

prior build:

Spoiler

 

 

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On 10/8/2021 at 6:18 PM, Kisai said:

The reason IMO they can get Linux on the M1 in the first place is because the Mach Kernel has always been open source. That's also the same reason Hackintosh's have been possible. Whatever drivers they need to make to get the OS to boot, they can port from DarwinOS. That will obviously do nothing for the GUI, since the GUI invokes Apple libraries that won't exist on Linux.

Not at all. While Darwin is open source, the drivers aren't. Most of the work was done with disassembling shader binaries and analyzing syscalls (like memory allocation, command buffer creation and command buffer submission).

 

Here's some blog post from Alyssa Rosenzweig that was the main effort behind it. There's a lot of cool insights about how Apple's gpu is unique.

https://rosenzweig.io/blog/asahi-gpu-part-1.html

https://rosenzweig.io/blog/asahi-gpu-part-2.html

https://rosenzweig.io/blog/asahi-gpu-part-3.html

https://rosenzweig.io/blog/asahi-gpu-part-4.html

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5 hours ago, kvuj said:

Not at all. While Darwin is open source, the drivers aren't. Most of the work was done with disassembling shader binaries and analysing syscalls (like memory allocation, command buffer creation and command buffer submission).

 

Here's some blog post from Alyssa Rosenzweig that was the main effort behind it. There's a lot of cool insights about how Apple's gpu is unique.

https://rosenzweig.io/blog/asahi-gpu-part-1.html

https://rosenzweig.io/blog/asahi-gpu-part-2.html

https://rosenzweig.io/blog/asahi-gpu-part-3.html

https://rosenzweig.io/blog/asahi-gpu-part-4.html

I was talking about the booting the system, not the GPU. The GPU is of course something that there are no drivers for, and someone who actually has written drivers for any GPU, either for a big brand or another architecture would likely understand but not someone trying to "use the binary blob" as it were, like it were an nVidia driver.

 

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8 hours ago, HelpfulTechWizard said:

We all use iphones, ipads, but the other stuff is just sooo much more than alternatives that its really not worth it. We have debated not upgrading out phones for a couple years to replace our... frankly, terrible.... windows laptop, with maybe a 8gbram 512gbstorage m1 macbook air, but its a lot of money to spend on a laptop when I can get a windows machine that can do what i want it to (mostly web bassed stuff) for half the price at walmart.

To really compare prices, you have to include build quality, display, KB/trackpad, speakers and so on. The only machines that compete these days are the high-end Lenovo (Carbon X1 and similar) and the Dell XPS, maybe some Surface machines. And I suggest to have a look at the prices of these machines. Comparing a MBP/A to a 500$ Acer is simply not fair.

 

And the M1 MBA starts at 1k - given the performance you get in addition to what I mentioned above, that is imho an awesome deal. In general I don't think 1k for a laptop that lasts many years is a lot of money.

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3 hours ago, Dracarris said:

To really compare prices, you have to include build quality, display, KB/trackpad, speakers and so on. The only machines that compete these days are the high-end Lenovo (Carbon X1 and similar) and the Dell XPS, maybe some Surface machines. And I suggest to have a look at the prices of these machines. Comparing a MBP/A to a 500$ Acer is simply not fair.

 

And the M1 MBA starts at 1k - given the performance you get in addition to what I mentioned above, that is imho an awesome deal. In general I don't think 1k for a laptop that lasts many years is a lot of money.

aaaaaand the upgradability

I have an ASUS G14 2021 with Manjaro KDE and I am a professional Linux NoOB and also pretty bad at General Computing.

 

ALSO I DON'T EDIT MY POSTS* NOWADAYS SO NO NEED TO REFRESH BEFORE REPLYING *unless I edit my post

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22 minutes ago, linux fanboy said:

aaaaaand the upgradability

That one has sailed a long time ago in this type of thin&light ultrabook or however you want to call them. If you are lucky you can exchange the SSD.

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