EU proposes law to generalize charging cables

[saltycaramel]

Gee I wonder why Apple’s PR doesn’t get back to Linus, with LMG posting these kind of edgy 15yo takes (btw, are they aware the previous connector lasted 11 years? and the user base was far smaller back then, nowadays we’re talking about changing billions of accessories).

 

 

[suicidalfranco]

Found the butthurt fanboy

[tikker]

15 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

nowadays we’re talking about changing billions of accessories

Not really. We're talking about requiring this on future devices, not hunting down and changing every single phone that now doesn't have a USB-C connector. The old stuff will stick around and keep working as it is until it slowly disappears as people upgrade and replace what they have now. And so what? Their jest aside, if Apple were to innovate with a new connector now would you then also complain about having to change all Apple devices? It's really not in their favour and the tweet does have a point. Apple has done everything but innovate their connector, while competitors were either trying their own thing or moving to USB-C. They wouldn't raise these concerns if every device would be forced to use Lightning.

[saltycaramel]

32 minutes ago, tikker said:

Their jest aside, if Apple were to innovate with a new connector now would you then also complain about having to change all Apple devices?

Nope provided they do it roughly every 10 years, like they’re doing,

I can totally see why they’re doing it every 10 years, and it’s not for lack of innovation.

This law happens to be discussed at a time when it’s almost time for a new innovative proprietary connector. 

The fact it was not innovated upon for 9 years doesn’t mean much. That’s exactly how it’s supposed to work. 

 

 

trivia: actually there has been a different connector in these 9 years…before 2018 (when iPad Pros got usb-c) Apple put a custom variant of the lightning connector on some ipad pro models that used all the pins on both sides and thus achieved USB 3.0 speeds…imagine not having this sort of control over one’s connector…or imagine if this law forced everyone to use miniUSB or microUSB back in the day..

[Kisai]

4 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

I don't think it's unreasonable at all.   There is nothing in newer versions of operating systems or software that makes them inherently hard to run on even moderate hardware.  My HTC desire from 2009 was still working perfectly fine in 2016.  That's 7 years without concerted effort to keep it going.  

 

 

The problem is the radios are out of date. The wireless carriers are not going to continue to operate the 2G/2.5G/3G network in perpetuity. Likewise routers are not going to support 802.11b/g in perpetuity. Wireless spectrum is scarce and continueing to use the old tech harms your ability to use the new tech at the same time. Basically all Bluetooth 1.x and 2.x devices can't be used any more if you want to use WiFi 802.11n at the same time because they will step on the 2.4Ghz spectrum in ways that cause a lot of noise. Nearly every proprietary wireless keyboard, mouse and headphones also step on 2.4ghz spectrum.

 

In 2009 smartphones were just starting to be a thing, but they still only had 2.4Ghz WiFi radios in them and GSM/UMTS radios only.

 

At any rate. Wireless devices are the exception, not the rule, for the charging cable intent.

 

There are plenty of devices out there that are less than 90w and can be powered by USB-C PD and should be. Some computer monitors can put out 90W PD USB-C intended for laptops, but can also have things like the Nintendo Switch or a smartphone/tablet use the monitor as a dock. Plug in a keyboard, mouse and wired ethernet adapter to the monitor, and you have an entire computer. Saves you spending an additional $300 on a powered USB-C dock.

 

Other than wireless devices, there are a lot of other things that out there that a USB-C to Barrel connector adapter is possible for. Like the Dell laptops, the models without the Dell barrel connector, only have USB-C on them, but you can buy an adapter for the old Dell power bricks to keep using them, as all Dell power bricks have the same connector, but are various wattages. A 17" laptop however requires TWO USB-C connectors to be powered by USB-C where as it still ships with the 240w power brick (the same brick that would be used on the WD19DC dock that has the two USB-C connectors)

[LAwLz]

These threads are always so predictable because they attracts the same three groups of people... 

1) The Apple fanboys that don't want Apple to change anything, because Apple knows best! 

2) The people who hate EU and want to be against them no matter what. 

3) The people who are against regulations in general and don't want them to exist, no matter how good or bad they are. 

 

 

 

My thoughts:

I think this is a good law and very much needed. I think it is good that the industry has moved so far on its own, but there are clearly some companies (*cough* Apple *cough*) that still wants to be assholes, so a law is needed.

By the way, it's worth mentioning that the reason we got micro-USB as a standard, and now USB-C as a standard, is because the EU pressured companies into signing an agreement to remain interoperable. This happened over a decade ago, back when smartphones were starting to come out. If it hadn't been for that agreement, we would probably still be in the old "every manufacturer uses their own charger" we had before.

 

As for "it will stifle innovation", I am not worried. If a new standard that is better gets developed they will just have to adapt the law to that too. I mean, the current agreements has already been changed to accommodate USB-C. I don't see why a new standard couldn't be incorporated into the law if it were to pass. Besides, it's not like charging standards change that often. Lightning is almost 10 years old at this point. Should we really worry that laws can't keep up with progress if the "progress" only happens like once a decade?

 

Some people have raised concern like "The Apple Watch can't fit a USB charging port on it!", to which I respond "stop only reading the headline and read the article". Devices like the Apple Watch are not affected by this proposed law. 

[saltycaramel]

Well that Apple knows best is kinda true.

Apple users got a sturdy reversible connector years before the rest of the industry caught up with usb-c (and usb-c growing pains were dispelled).

[Video Beagle]

I feel it should be mentioned, as some posts seem to have it confused, standards bodies are not governmental bodies. Standards are just that, agreed upon concepts, generally to allow for interoperability. Not following a standard has no penalty, other than not being able to claim that you use that standard. (so if your usb cable is made of cheese, you can't claim to be following the standard).

 

Standards are set by standards bodies, of which there are different levels, from local to national to international. These bodies are made up of individuals representing themselves/their companies/their technologies, and they endlessly debate technical minutia....in the case of international ones, often in luxury hotels in Geneva. (why yes, I once had career dreams of doing so).

 

Standards, by and large, are good things. Companies can follow or not follow them based on whatever reasons they want, from staking out their own path (as Apple does with lightning) or being too cheap to do the work (as CheezeTech™ does).

 

Laws, which are made by governments, are not voluntary standards. They are legal requirements. If you don't follow them, you could be fined or sent to jail. They are made by polliticians who don't know anything about the topics, but are given position papers by aids that may be from their own research, or may be given to them by political operatives from one interest or another.

[Video Beagle]

8 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

These threads are always so predictable because they attracts the same three groups of people... 

1) The Apple fanboys that don't want Apple to change anything, because Apple knows best! 

2) The people who hate EU and want to be against them no matter what. 

3) The people who are against regulations in general and don't want them to exist, no matter how good or bad they are. 

Be fair, they "We hate Apple because grrr-Apple" people who want Apple to change everything because grrr Apple, also always show up.

[tikker]

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

proprietary connector

Which is what they're trying to prevent.

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

This law happens to be discussed at a time when it’s almost time for a new innovative proprietary connector. 

Remember when every brand and their mom had its own connector? It sucked big time. You'd have 4 phones in the house and thus 4 different chargers. Nothing was interchangeable or compatible. I love being able to just plug my laptop charger into my phone nowadays. Whether that's USB-C or Lightning I don't care. I like them having the same connector.

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

The fact it was not innovated upon for 9 years doesn’t mean much. That’s exactly how it’s supposed to work.

It means that they've gotten by just fine without innovating for almost a decade, making their point about USB-C for charging (they can still do their on thing on other ports) limiting innovation a bit hard to believe as they've been free to innovate as much as they want yet never saw the need.

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

imagine not having this sort of control over one’s connector…

See connector hell above. I don't care if it's Lightning or USB-C, but at this point in time having a proprietary connector on a phone is just to be different and to lock you into their ecosystem with their products. I would be giving this same critique to Samsung if they came up with a triangular connector for their phones. Apple even lists e.g. fast charging on their own website as needing a Lightning to USB-C converter, so certain aspects already "require" it.

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

or imagine if this law forced everyone to use miniUSB or microUSB back in the day..

We didn't care about this at that point and perhaps also didn't consider mini/micro USB as sufficient quality to enforce as a standard connector.

24 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

Well that Apple knows best is kinda true.

Apple users got a sturdy reversible connector years before the rest of the industry caught up with usb-c (and usb-c growing pains were dispelled).

They're extremely good at taking something that exists and marketing that to the masses. Their closed down tightly controlled ecosystem also puts them on a level that open platforms can not attain simply due to the variety of them, and lack thereof in Apple's ecosystem. They have great inventions a well  (e.g. M1), but I wouldn't say they necessarily know best.

[mr moose]

55 minutes ago, Kisai said:

The problem is the radios are out of date. The wireless carriers are not going to continue to operate the 2G/2.5G/3G network in perpetuity. Likewise routers are not going to support 802.11b/g in perpetuity. Wireless spectrum is scarce and continueing to use the old tech harms your ability to use the new tech at the same time. Basically all Bluetooth 1.x and 2.x devices can't be used any more if you want to use WiFi 802.11n at the same time because they will step on the 2.4Ghz spectrum in ways that cause a lot of noise. Nearly every proprietary wireless keyboard, mouse and headphones also step on 2.4ghz spectrum.

 

In 2009 smartphones were just starting to be a thing, but they still only had 2.4Ghz WiFi radios in them and GSM/UMTS radios only.

 

At any rate. Wireless devices are the exception, not the rule, for the charging cable intent.

 

There are plenty of devices out there that are less than 90w and can be powered by USB-C PD and should be. Some computer monitors can put out 90W PD USB-C intended for laptops, but can also have things like the Nintendo Switch or a smartphone/tablet use the monitor as a dock. Plug in a keyboard, mouse and wired ethernet adapter to the monitor, and you have an entire computer. Saves you spending an additional $300 on a powered USB-C dock.

 

Other than wireless devices, there are a lot of other things that out there that a USB-C to Barrel connector adapter is possible for. Like the Dell laptops, the models without the Dell barrel connector, only have USB-C on them, but you can buy an adapter for the old Dell power bricks to keep using them, as all Dell power bricks have the same connector, but are various wattages. A 17" laptop however requires TWO USB-C connectors to be powered by USB-C where as it still ships with the 240w power brick (the same brick that would be used on the WD19DC dock that has the two USB-C connectors)

Well then network companies are just going to have to do what they do in Australia,  run each network for a reasonable time and only cut it off when the technology hasn't been sold for at least 5 years.  That should keep 99% of people happy. 

 

Honestly, you'd think I was recommending we cut off half our legs.  The fact of the matter is modern mobile tech is good enough for everyone to have a decent internet connected smart phone that isn't rubbish and should last 10 years.  I know it's along time, but if they want to keep pushing the "climate change will kill us" narrative then ten years is nothing to support a computing device for.  Fuckme if MS can support an OS for ten years,  phones can be supported for that long too.   

[mr moose]

46 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

These threads are always so predictable because they attracts the same three groups of people... 

1) The Apple fanboys that don't want Apple to change anything, because Apple knows best! 

2) The people who hate EU and want to be against them no matter what. 

3) The people who are against regulations in general and don't want them to exist, no matter how good or bad they are. 

 

 

 

 

Wicked, I fit all 3 this time.  What do I win?

 

 

[Dracarris]

47 minutes ago, tikker said:

They're extremely good at taking something that exists and marketing that to the masses.

So the lightning port/connector existed before Apple released it? That being said, you forgot to add "make it work properly and reliably instead of a half-assed party trick feature" in the middle of that sentence.

[LAwLz]

53 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Wicked, I fit all 3 this time.  What do I win?

I don't think you fit 1 or 3.

 

I don't have the impression that you're an Apple fanboy who thinks they always know best, and most of our disagreements have been about you being for some regulation that I am against. So I don't see you as a "all regulations are bad" type of person either.

[tikker]

52 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

So the lightning port/connector existed before Apple released it? That being said, you forgot to add "make it work properly and reliably instead of a half-assed party trick feature" in the middle of that sentence.

You clearly ignored the second sentence where I said they also have great inventions. I love their touchpads and macbooks are great machines. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to copy something and improve it, we even have a saying for that. They also have had plenty of issues. Their low ultra low profile keyboards were the worst I've every typed on, the butterfly switches were fragile, their touchbars have/had issues, screens are cracking due to ridiculous tolerances. They've made plenty of missteps in their quest for the thinnest thing possible and pull stupid stuff like charging $999 for a monitor stand. So no, they don't "know best". Neither does any other company in my opinion. That's why I also don't care what the standard connector will be. Make it USB-B for all I care. It would just be nice to see some wide de facto thing for things like chargers.

[Spindel]

19 minutes ago, tikker said:

You clearly ignored the second sentence where I said they also have great inventions. I love their touchpads and macbooks are great machines. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to copy something and improve it, we even have a saying for that. They also have had plenty of issues. Their low ultra low profile keyboards were the worst I've every typed on, the butterfly switches were fragile, their touchbars have/had issues, screens are cracking due to ridiculous tolerances. They've made plenty of missteps in their quest for the thinnest thing possible and pull stupid stuff like charging $999 for a monitor stand. So no, they don't "know best". Neither does any other company in my opinion. That's why I also don't care what the standard connector will be. Make it USB-B for all I care. It would just be nice to see some wide de facto thing for things like chargers.

Hmmm USB-B in a phone

 

[tikker]

16 minutes ago, Spindel said:

Hmmm USB-B in a phone

 

So majestic. No more flimsy connector, ensures all the room for headphone jacks and juicy batteries will exist. We should invent USB-D that's just symmetrical USB-C.

[Mark Kaine]

Wait, apple can't use their proprietary lightning port bs anymore? Hahaha

 

(I believe it when I see it)

[Mark Kaine]

On 9/23/2021 at 12:39 PM, Beerzerker said:

Exclude chargers?
If I'm understanding this correctly (And I hope not), are they saying they can't include a charger for the device you're buying?

yeap, they want you to use your old charger that you have laying around anyways,  to reduce e-waste,  the horror! 

 

 

On the other hand... i don't buy a phone every year, more like every 8 years... i don't have a lot of working chargers at all... this law should include a guaranteed life expectancy for chargers, like 5 years minimum,  otherwise people will just have to buy new chargers every few years anyways as they dont last very long.  : /

 

 

On 9/23/2021 at 1:13 PM, Zodiark1593 said:

If this was law in 2011, would Apple have been allowed to use the Lightning connector, which by that point was legitimately far superior to Micro USB?

Companies also would have far less incentives to develop new charging methods / ports as its part of their marketing scheme "new charging technology,  newest bestest port!" if they have to wait years (decades?) for the EU to (maybe) ratify their new tech... as usual EU proves to not really think things through, or even understand tech on a basic level...

 

 

Don't get me wrong I'm happy if this means end of proprietary bs, but the rest of the law not so much, especially that I now probably have to buy random no name chargers instead of getting one from manufacturers for free doesn't really sound like much of an advantage to me...

 

 

[Dracarris]

1 hour ago, tikker said:

You clearly ignored the second sentence where I said they also have great inventions.

I wasn't even talking about inventions, but copy-improve is sth totally different than simply copy. And I don't get why you bring this up in the context of Lightning, which AFAIK isn't copied from anywhere.

1 hour ago, tikker said:

Their low ultra low profile keyboards were the worst I've every typed on

That's your personal opinion. If it weren't for the ridiculous fragility, I'd love this keyboard. But I am also one of the few that doesn't enjoy hammering on keys that go click-clack with 10mm of travel, it annoys the hell out of me.

1 hour ago, tikker said:

screens are cracking due to ridiculous tolerances

No. Even Louis Rossmann disagrees.

[tikker]

27 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

I wasn't even talking about inventions, but copy-improve is sth totally different than simply copy. And I don't get why you bring this up in the context of Lightning, which AFAIK isn't copied from anywhere.

I didn't. It was in regard to the "Apple knows best statement".

27 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

That's your personal opinion. If it weren't for the ridiculous fragility, I'd love this keyboard. But I am also one of the few that doesn't enjoy hammering on keys that go click-clack with 10mm of travel, it annoys the hell out of me.

Fair enough.

27 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

No. Even Louis Rossmann disagrees.

Well Apple themselves say it:

Quote

If you close your Mac notebook with a camera cover installed, you might damage your display because the clearance between the display and keyboard is designed to very tight tolerances.

and their recent warning:

Quote

To enable the thin design of Mac notebook computers, the clearance between the display (screen) and the top case is engineered to tight tolerances. If you use a camera cover, palm rest cover, or keyboard cover with your Mac notebook, remove the cover before closing your display. Leaving any material on your display, keyboard, or palm rest might interfere with the display when it's closed and cause damage to your display.

 

[Guest willies leg]

Great news! Apparently all other problems are solved!

 

Maybe next we can attack cereal bowls, I like them a certain depth and product material.

[Jeskspie]

Cant wait to never get this update....

[Dracarris]

22 minutes ago, tikker said:

Well Apple themselves say it:

That was not the point of the discussion, which was about "Macbook displays breaking by themselves". Who would've guessed that you can't place an object between the lid and body that exerts a point-force to your display? As a huge surprise to no one, this most probably also happens on thin-and-lights from other companies.

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, Dracarris said:

That was not the point of the discussion, which was about "Macbook displays breaking by themselves". Who would've guessed that you can't place an object between the lid and body that exerts a point-force to your display? As a huge surprise to no one, this most probably also happens on thin-and-lights from other companies.

It happens to all ultrabook designs, that includes dell, hp, lenovo, asus, etc. What makes Apple's extra succeptable to it is that the webcam is behind the glass, where Dell and such put the camera in the frame. So the difference is that the cover on the screen creates a pressure point and cracks the screen directly where it comes in contact, where as on a Dell unit, it will usually crack the screen if you put anything on top of it, while closed. You can also break the screen if you replace the accupoint with a model from the wrong laptop.

 

At any rate, this is very derailing the topic. 

 

USB-C PD should be the one-and-only power/charging method for all devices 90watts and under. That includes smartphones, laptops, tablets, small monitors and televisions, video game consoles, game controllers, blueray players, etc.

 

If we were to correctly re-design things to remove a lot of the E-waste, your TV would be the thing that has the power supply in it, and everything gets plugged into a USB-C backplane where your speakers, game consoles, etc all plug into it without further DC power/built-in power supplies. Only things with more than 90 watts would not be powered by a single USB-C alone, and anything with more than 90 watts instead has a connector with USB-C signaling but physically has larger wire gauge bound to two/three/four USB-C connectors.

This is a Dell WD19DC docking station. Note the dual USB-C connector on the dock. A "stand-alone" (eg no other dock functionality, would simply have that dual USB C connector attached after the choke on the 240w power brick, and interim models would could simply have the barrel connector feed into the end of it.

 

Now, as silly as it sounds, I actually don't like the idea of fusing two usb-c connectors together as that means one of those will inevitably fail. Multiply that over the number of connectors. Instead what I'd like to see is a larger USB-C connector capable of pushing the maximum power that can be pulled from a 110/120/220/240v AC outlet (eg 1800watts) so the connector we have now would be considered the regular one, and the high-power model would be a connector that surrounds the regular model so you can still use usb-c devices with it without yet more stupid cables.