Nvidia DLAA, "quality" anti aliasing image over FPS (now in ES:O)

[Quackers101]

Just a quick update

Recent release 20.09 driver 472.12

 

Summary

Nvidia is testing more AI stuff in games, this being on anti-aliasing.

To improve image quality like edges etc, instead of boosting performance.

Certain things that DLSS was going to be used for, and using some of the similar tech with likely similar problems or worse.

Need to look into how it goes in more titles and how it's implemented.

 

Currently added option to Elder Scrolls Online test/beta servers.

 

Quotes

Quote

Test Drive New NVIDIA DLAA (Deep Learning Anti-Aliasing) On Elder Scrolls Online Test Servers

Many gamers want higher frame rates. But others have plenty of FPS and instead want to maximize image quality. NVIDIA DLAA (Deep Learning Anti-Aliasing) is a new AI-based anti-aliasing mode for users who have spare GPU headroom and want higher levels of image quality. DLAA uses the same technology developed for DLSS, but works on a native resolution image to maximize image quality instead of boosting performance. The first implementation is available today on the Elder Scrolls Online test servers.

 

My thoughts

Always fun with new AI and solutions, however the implementation and Nvidia trying to own or trying to control a market I'm not a fan of.

Have not tested this but seems like it could help, if it gets motion data right (like a few bugs/glitches with DLSS).

 

Sources

@SkilledRebuilds

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/windows-11-game-ready-driver/

https://www.pcmag.com/news/nvidia-dlaa-tech-can-boost-image-quality-in-older-games

 

*might scrap random video due to low quality find and if real world*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YMvg0fA5PI

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Quackers101

[Action_Johnson]

This really is nothing more than DLSS, but scaling in the other direction. 

 

For example, you're playing at 4k, and DLSS is on performance, rendering at 1080 and then upscaling back to 4k.. yadda yadda.. This is just taking the 4k image, running DLSS on it to 8k, and scaling it back down to 4k, but with the crisper image. 

 

I'm all for this, I think supersampling, especially with how aggressive TAA is now, is going to be the answer. 

 

You can effectively do the same thing, today, by turning on DSR (VSR for AMD), and running your game at a higher resolution than your monitor. For example, run a game at 4k instead of 1080 on your 1080p monitor, and you will see a better image. RDR 2 is probably the most obvious example of where this brings in a crisper image. I do this in every game I have the headroom for because it really does significantly boost IQ, especially if you're running at 1080p or 1440. Less so for 4K. 

 

I'm sure DLAA though would have alot less overhead to deal with vs regular ol' DSR/VSR. And Nvidia's DSR really does need alot of tweaking to get right, too. AMD's version is way way better. 

[suicidalfranco]

Cool.

Now, if only armor gear in Eso looked as good as what they look like in any elder scroll, would probably go back in and reactivate my plus membership

[Quackers101]

12 hours ago, Action_Johnson said:

This really is nothing more than DLSS, but scaling in the other direction. 

 

For example, you're playing at 4k, and DLSS is on performance, rendering at 1080 and then upscaling back to 4k.. yadda yadda.. This is just taking the 4k image, running DLSS on it to 8k, and scaling it back down to 4k, but with the crisper image. 

 

I'm all for this, I think supersampling, especially with how aggressive TAA is now, is going to be the answer. 

 

You can effectively do the same thing, today, by turning on DSR (VSR for AMD), and running your game at a higher resolution than your monitor. For example, run a game at 4k instead of 1080 on your 1080p monitor, and you will see a better image. RDR 2 is probably the most obvious example of where this brings in a crisper image. I do this in every game I have the headroom for because it really does significantly boost IQ, especially if you're running at 1080p or 1440. Less so for 4K. 

 

I'm sure DLAA though would have alot less overhead to deal with vs regular ol' DSR/VSR. And Nvidia's DSR really does need alot of tweaking to get right, too. AMD's version is way way better. 

agree, but I'm curious what they do with it now. will it be better than what they wanted from DLSS in the beginning, did they choose other solutions and will there be the same bugs and quirks to make anything out of it. Also how this goes on performance compared to other AA solutions to actual image quality in motion.

 

want to hope it's easier to get into the game, but knowing Nvidia and the use of DLSS stuff, RIP.

 

Seems like it has some pros and cons for DLAA compared to TAA, and sometimes worse result for the performance and sometimes better details at times?
But then using DLSS over DLAA, is to me the best. Other examples might be better, and other titles could show what DLAA might be capable of.

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Quackers101
Added video

[Quackers101]

like the trail shown around 1:10 behind or around the armor on the video above, something my eyes are very sensitive to motion details?

stairs with their lines or foilage further away that can have improved details. could be a lot better on lower resolution images, but seems like DLSS just gives you more.

[Vishera]

I wonder how it fares against SSAA - an antialiasing technique that favors looks over performance.

[Quackers101]

11 minutes ago, Vishera said:

I wonder how it fares against SSAA - an antialiasing technique that favors looks over performance.

not sure what you would call that of all the AA types, so many of them can be easy to confuse different versions.

 

not sure why some games have gone away from some of these AA modes?

 

[Vishera]

21 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

not sure why some games have gone away from some of these AA modes?

SSAA - a performance hog,can cut performance by half or more,but gives the best quality.

CSAA - while it gives similar results to SSAA for better performance,not many adopted it.

 

The most popular techniques are:

FXAA - can make things blurry,but it barely affects performance.

TXAA - looks good and performance is pretty good as well.

MSAA - looks good,but a bit of a performance hog.

 

Some games combine two techniques of antialiasing to work at the same time.

 

My favorite one is TXAA,but MSAA is good option as well.

[ouroesa]

I can't stand the ghosting in most titles (esp UE games) when using TXAA.

[Action_Johnson]

On 9/22/2021 at 5:43 AM, Quackers101 said:

agree, but I'm curious what they do with it now. will it be better than what they wanted from DLSS in the beginning, did they choose other solutions and will there be the same bugs and quirks to make anything out of it. Also how this goes on performance compared to other AA solutions to actual image quality in motion.

 

want to hope it's easier to get into the game, but knowing Nvidia and the use of DLSS stuff, RIP.

 

Seems like it has some pros and cons for DLAA compared to TAA, and sometimes worse result for the performance and sometimes better details at times?
But then using DLSS over DLAA, is to me the best. Other examples might be better, and other titles could show what DLAA might be capable of.

 

Wow TAA is significantly sharper. DLAA looks to be a total dud. WOMP WOMP.

 

Still looks like TAA in combination with supersampling using DSR or VSR will be the best way to top IQ. That sucks because DLSS if it actually did Deep Learning SuperSampling of native res, would look freaking amazing and would be less computationally expensive than normal supersampling. 

[Quackers101]

14 minutes ago, Action_Johnson said:

Wow TAA is significantly sharper. DLAA looks to be a total dud. WOMP WOMP. 

yes right now TAA looks better in many cases. But some question how it does in performance on lower resolutions.

Also since it's based around DLSS like stuff, it could be improved more or doing more "cheating" to the image now or in the future.

That it also does some curious stuff in 4K, were extra details can be noticed further away. But could also be due to other things.

[Quackers101]

rant

ah okey, you can see it better through this method.

a lot of pros and cons. mostly when you are going to make the most details at a confined space.

where the sharpness of TAA can produce a loss of details. (see link below)

techpowerup has a nice slide and focus on 1080p were you got less pixels in the background.

Spoiler

it can feel to us that it produces lesser quality when it actually is regaining some details that are lost.

however, since the details are so far away... it can be worse in what one see as details as it will stand less out due to the smearing and lesser sharpening of details. since they are in such a tight space, they could bring up more contrast to define the details more or between objects instead of smearing it into the background. sadly there is a lot of issues and other details are lost in this smearing, like the plants in the front becoming a colored mess instead of harsh defining colors, it's just all blended together. which means there is a lot of work needed for DLAA and what it tries to do and any reason to use it over other solutions.

 

there might be other cases where a lot of objects in the background it could help detailing, right now this doesn't seem like the best use of it.

Also when it might be harder to spot the objects due to lower sharpness, which would be worse for shooters and faster pace games, and with the addition of various motion issues there could be.

 

and I do wonder if HDR could help it?

best seen in distance on 1080p (last slide)

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/nvidia-dlaa-anti-aliasing/

[Vishera]

15 hours ago, Quackers101 said:

rant

ah okey, you can see it better through this method.

a lot of pros and cons. mostly when you are going to make the most details at a confined space.

where the sharpness of TAA can produce a loss of details. (see link below)

techpowerup has a nice slide and focus on 1080p were you got less pixels in the background.

  Reveal hidden contents

it can feel to us that it produces lesser quality when it actually is regaining some details that are lost.

however, since the details are so far away... it can be worse in what one see as details as it will stand less out due to the smearing and lesser sharpening of details. since they are in such a tight space, they could bring up more contrast to define the details more or between objects instead of smearing it into the background. sadly there is a lot of issues and other details are lost in this smearing, like the plants in the front becoming a colored mess instead of harsh defining colors, it's just all blended together. which means there is a lot of work needed for DLAA and what it tries to do and any reason to use it over other solutions.

 

there might be other cases where a lot of objects in the background it could help detailing, right now this doesn't seem like the best use of it.

Also when it might be harder to spot the objects due to lower sharpness, which would be worse for shooters and faster pace games, and with the addition of various motion issues there could be.

 

and I do wonder if HDR could help it?

best seen in distance on 1080p (last slide)

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/nvidia-dlaa-anti-aliasing/

From the screenshots it seems like it doesn't come close to the quality of SSAA.

[Quackers101]

2 hours ago, Vishera said:

From the screenshots it seems like it doesn't come close to the quality of SSAA.

depends on what you mean by that?

some goes under different names or use other methods or were they mix different resolution or AA modes.

Spoiler

FXAA - Fast approximate AA

CMAA - Conservative Morphological AA, this works similarly to FXAA, It doesn't blur the image nearly as much and does a better job at only smoothing out edges
SMAA - better FXAA with sub pixel samples?

 

MSAA - multi sample AA
TXAA - temporal approximate AA (mostly used for motion AA)

FSAA - full screen AA
SSAA - spatial supersampling AA, each x times more, x amount of extra pixels and resolution for better AA.
DSR or VSR - Dynamic Super Resolution or Virtual Super Resolution, in some ways similar to SSAA and more used now? (for each brand a nvidia vs amd solution)

Quote

VSR, a feature that is game and engine agnostic to simulate SSAA in games that do not have native SSAA support and can be used with other AA

TSSAA - temporal like AA with SSAA, but more TXAA issues?

Upscaling or downscaling the image, does more or less what some of these do but hit in performance.
So DLAA could be better than higher hitting SSAA to performance. over other AA solutions or if SSAA improves.
from stuff like TSSAA (might have been tried in uncharter 4). While sure, its not something I would pick over TAA/TXAA or DLSS, it can have it's use case when found.

 

Greg Salazar - Frame Scaling: What Is It and Should You Use it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDgRS7n754c

Techquickie - What is Supersampling?

https://youtu.be/mN4pFfrc7xg?t=93

 

but got to say, its hard to follow on all the changes and opted out features, that might bleed into other settings.

and if one is going to also compare resolution scaling options against DLAA and what it might give there.

Also again, DLAA could likely be given the DLSS support or upgrades, or hopefully that is the case.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Quackers101

[Vishera]

55 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

DSR or VSR - Dynamic Super Resolution or Virtual Super Resolution, in some ways similar to SSAA and more used now? (for each brand a nvidia vs amd solution)

DSR and VSR are completely different.

VSR works like SSAA

DSR takes an images,enlarges it,sharpens it,then it resizes the image to the original size and smoothens it (to mask the artifacts that result from the sharpening)

 

55 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

depends on what you mean by that?

SSAA seems way better than DLAA when it comes to looks.

It's still the best looking AA out there.

[Quackers101]

5 hours ago, Vishera said:

SSAA seems way better than DLAA when it comes to looks.

It's still the best looking AA out there.

sure, but what when it comes to image quality vs performance? does it stand a chance with 5-10% reduction at times vs closer to 50-30% reduction of FPS?

also how less expensive for FPS it seems to be, in lower resolution compared to having it off. Still not sure has I don't have the ESO or their beta, how it works on lower resolutions frame timings or FPS.

 

then again I don't know many games that even offer SSAA/FSAA that you speak of, where MSAA is more used or VSR/DSR.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Quackers101

[Quackers101]

A few pictures to show it better, might have been hard to see just scrolling through

Taken from the TechPowerUp website, if what they show is DLAA in action.

 

Do be noted, motion could be a deal breaker and other known DLSS issues ontop of that.

 

First set: certain details brought forth in the scene. 1080p

Spoiler

zoomed in picture

 

1. here the tree seems flatter to my eye in the DLAA side, but with smoother edges.

2. Here you can see a clear case of added details for DLAA, a good improvement on the edge for this stone structure, but sadly also some blending into the background too.

3. Here you can see some on this stone structure too, that some of the object is recovered in the scene, the middle bump were the arrow tries to point at, shows it's a bit raised and is more noticeable on their website in realtime.

 

another point could be towards the object in the middle, for the object with fire. less contrast and more blended... which I find to be a downside with DLAA in this scene. But is more up for each person to judge if they prefer one or the other. Could however be a downside on critical objects that would be harder to see in a scene or in for example a shooter. or fast moving games, unless they can match recovered details vs loss of identity/edge (not sure if it has a name like the purpose of SSAO and it against DLAA).

 

second set: Stone bricks 1080p

Spoiler

1. Highlights removed for "better edges"

2. DLAA is recovering some of the edge around here, and other areas for the bricks.

 

Also a side note, at this lower resolution and less unlike in 4k

Do you notice how the shadows are reduced by good margin?

It affects a lot more on 1080p compared to 4K, were it's considerably less shadows to gain some "detail" that might feel more like blurring out the texture to smooth the edges than to make the details "pop out" or whatever term to be used for it.

Any dark spot on this wall has also been sort of reduced in the original image for the DLAA version, were dark spots are filled by smoothening edges. Which might not be great for all scenes, but can be adjusted by game devs if needed. (but means more work on devs or if nvidia updates specific game "filters" for DLAA, when needed)

 

TAA 1080p DLAA

 

DLAA 1080p

 

third set: Closer up, flowers, 1080p

Spoiler

 

1 and 2, shows just a preference thing.

for me that 1 is sort of improved while 2 is getting more in the background with DLAA, nearly faded out of existance.

Do be noted some color shift during each picture can happen or due to movement, although this seen as more on TAA vs DLAA.

3. a bit harder to see here, but there is a noticeable difference around the edges of the flowers, a lot sharper in the DLAA version. Not sure if the colors was washed out in some areas there or due to movement.

4. the grass around here, just have to look a bit around that area, was recovered (hard to point at, in DLAA)

5. Here was a noticeable sharpness in TAA but could also be lost information on this yellow leaf, however right there it seems to stand out more.

 

TAA

DLAA

 

fourth set in 4K, close and far away, and what that is making a difference

Spoiler

Close

One can clearly see a difference on the entrance is a big one, and the middle for the torch's details. Which could be good on some titles or scenarios.

Although some areas for sharpness and shadows like edges are decreased. Like they say, reducing "jagged edges" and what you prefer.

Some seen on the sharp thing in the middle of the screen, the one next to the entrance in the forefront.

1. You can see a sharper line on the tree, but some shadow effect and depth seems to be lost to me.

2. This shows a good area for DLAA, here it BOTH smooths out and keeping more details in some areas with lesser reduction in detail of depth over more shown.

 

First TAA (123 fps), second is DLAA (111 fps)

 

Far away

You can notice how the sharpness and certain color details are faint, but could be said to be either more accurate or just smoother or more "details" on the DLAA one. This is how you will see them from far away, and what do you prefer and able to see?

 

TAA   -    DLAA 4K

 

 

Not sure if people like DLAA content as much like DLSS ;/ but find it a little interesting. Although some expectations from something that is DLSS based.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Quackers101
Editing in the sets

[Quackers101]

Again from Techpowerup and youtube.

showing a kind of positive side of DLAA in Deathloop.

BUT it does NOT show against TAA, unlike in ESO.

 

Also mostly a focus on LOWER resolution? 1080p, were it CAN be close enough to DLSS but can lose more frames depending on the scene.

Not sure what will cost it the most when using DLAA. As it has sort of similar FPS target, but of course DLSS beats it in many other areas and should rather be used in 4K or if one got a lower card that needs the extra frames.

 

So now it might show/work more in closer proximity to the player to give maybe a sharper DLAA image (or adjusted to be a sharper DLAA version?).

 

[Justaphysicsnerd]

On 9/22/2021 at 10:31 AM, Action_Johnson said:

This really is nothing more than DLSS, but scaling in the other direction. 

 

For example, you're playing at 4k, and DLSS is on performance, rendering at 1080 and then upscaling back to 4k.. yadda yadda.. This is just taking the 4k image, running DLSS on it to 8k, and scaling it back down to 4k, but with the crisper image. 

 

I'm all for this, I think supersampling, especially with how aggressive TAA is now, is going to be the answer. 

 

You can effectively do the same thing, today, by turning on DSR (VSR for AMD), and running your game at a higher resolution than your monitor. For example, run a game at 4k instead of 1080 on your 1080p monitor, and you will see a better image. RDR 2 is probably the most obvious example of where this brings in a crisper image. I do this in every game I have the headroom for because it really does significantly boost IQ, especially if you're running at 1080p or 1440. Less so for 4K. 

 

I'm sure DLAA though would have alot less overhead to deal with vs regular ol' DSR/VSR. And Nvidia's DSR really does need alot of tweaking to get right, too. AMD's version is way way better. 

so wait, this DSR thingy. It would hurt the performance of a normal GPU though, right ? since what I am referring to as a normal GPU is one that doesn't have any special hardware for upscaling or AI stuff in it like say a 1660 super

[Quackers101]

19 minutes ago, Justaphysicsnerd said:

so wait, this DSR thingy. It would hurt the performance of a normal GPU though, right ? since what I am referring to as a normal GPU is one that doesn't have any special hardware for upscaling or AI stuff in it like say a 1660 super

are you thinking of DSR/VSR or FSR? as FSR is kind of the DLSS for AMD or older cards.