Elon Musk and the AI Team introduce The Tesla Bot at AI day, talk about FSD and their DOJO AI supercomputer

[Master Disaster]

Just now, leadeater said:

With all that said I I fully get where it's coming from I do have to thank Tesla the company for what they did for the EV market. Now this might sound stupid but Tesla actually set out to make cars that happened to have electric drive, this statement is extremely important to me. Every other effort before and after, and largely still today companies are designing EVs that just happen to look car like.

Sorry but that's incorrect.

 

Tesla was founded by Marc Tarpenning and Martin Eberhard 2 years before Elon bought majority, stacked the board with his own people then kicked out the 2 founders and deleted them from Tesla's history.

 

The original vision was from Eberhard and it was for nothing more than to build his personal dream car. He never wanted to make Evs popular, just to build something he thought would be cool.

 

Making EVs popular was Musks idea and I assure you, it was totally self serving. He needed something he could rely on as a steady revenue stream and since he had already stolen the company he already had the perfect platform.

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Tesla was founded by Marc Tarpenning and Martin Eberhard 2 years before Elon bought majority, stacked the board with his own people then kicked out the 2 founders and deleted them from Tesla's history.

I know the origins of Tesla, it has no affect on what Tesla the company actually did for vehicles on the market.

 

5 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

The original vision was from Eberhard and it was for nothing more than to build his personal dream car

That's still the point, he wanted to make a dream car, his dream car. Not a statement piece that others would buy only for that reason i.e. BMW i3 or many other putrid Hybrids and EVs that have existed.

 

5 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Making EVs popular was Musks idea and I assure you, it was totally self serving. He needed something he could rely on as a steady revenue stream and since he had already stolen the company he already had the perfect platform.

Of course, he's in it for the money. Exactly why he knew the wider population wanted a Model S not an i3.

[leadeater]

@Master Disaster

 

I'd rather walk than own this.

[Master Disaster]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I know the origins of Tesla, it has no affect on what Tesla the company actually did for vehicles on the market.

Agreed and TBC, I'm not taking anything away from the actual engineers at any of his companies. Both Tesla & SX obviously have a lot of very talented employees, its just that Musk is not one of them.

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

 

That's still the point, he wanted to make a dream car, his dream car. Not a statement piece that others would buy only for the reason i.e. BMW i3 or many other putrid Hybrids and EVs that have existed.

I personally hold Eberhard as being more responsible than Musk, he literally designed and built the Roadster from nothing and caused a revolution in the industry.

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

 

Of course, he's in it for the money, Exactly why he knew the wider population wanted a Model S not an i3.

He's a businessman, he'd be stupid if he wasn't in it for the money however the money is literally his only interest.

[Sauron]

On 8/22/2021 at 8:22 PM, willies leg said:

If the AI's been trained to understand where it's safe to drive, it will, and in fact, does, drive there. Snow and target practice road signs are irrelevant to the model, just like elephants and shooting stars.

The problem is that you can't train it to recognize absolutely everything correctly. You're necessarily going to run into overfitting issues at some point. You can work around this sort of issue with sanity checks but only to a point.

 

And yes, dirty or broken road signs will *absolutely* throw off image recognition AI, no matter how good the camera is. Here's a real example from just last year: https://electrek.co/2020/02/19/tesla-autopilot-tricked-accelerate-speed-limit-sign/

 

Personally I'm very skeptical we'll get something that is truly and completely autonomous any time soon; I don't know what kind of network routing you use AI for but it's easy to see that it's not comparable to navigating roads. Network routing happens within a fairly well defined set of rules and you always have an accurate picture of the system's state. You can't assume the same for anything that senses and attempts to navigate the real world.

[leadeater]

8 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Personally I'm very skeptical we'll get something that is truly and completely autonomous any time soon; I don't know what kind of network routing you use AI for but it's easy to see that it's not comparable to navigating roads. Network routing happens within a fairly well defined set of rules and you always have an accurate picture of the system's state. You can't assume the same for anything that senses and attempts to navigate the real world.

This really only going to happen, or should, when every car knows exactly where it is at all times and is connected in real time to traffic control so knows the speed limits and traffic data as well as additionally every car being locally connected to each other by proximity and shares information about what it is doing and also what it thinks the rules and conditions of the road is.

 

It's easy for one autonomous system to get it wrong, it's much harder for many multiples to make the same mistake especially if they all have different input information, as well as common input information.

 

Until road systems themselves are designed for autonomous vehicles then it's simply not to a strong enough degree of safety, until then firmly driver aids only.

[Sauron]

9 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

He's a businessman, he'd be stupid if he wasn't in it for the money however the money is literally his only interest.

The same goes for every businessman, especially billionaires. The only difference is that Musk for some reason gets idolized and credited for things that he just didn't do. He's kind of like Steve Jobs, acting like some sort of supergenius inventor off the backs of actually talented people. Aside from the concrete harm he does (like abusing incentives and treating employees like shit, or engaging in covid denial), he also gives people a completely warped idea of how technological advancements work and what areas we need to focus on to improve our world.

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

This really only going to happen, or should, when every car knows exactly where it is at all times and is connected in real time to traffic control so knows the speed limits and traffic data as well as additionally every car being locally connected to each other by proximity and shares information about that it is doing and also what it thinks the rules and conditions of the road is.

Yep, and I wouldn't classify that as being "autonomous". We have similar systems today in warehouse management; automatic guidance vehicles that can respond to their immediate surroundings but depend on a central system to coordinate the "fleet". I don't know if I would trust something as potentially dangerous and on such a massive scale as traffic control to be handled through a wireless connection, even if you had sufficient processing power and a good enough control algorithm.

 

Consider something like Google Maps; despite virtually unlimited processing power and extremely detailed information on the whereabouts of millions of vehicles it can still fail spectacularly, or simply stop working due to you entering a tunnel.

 

I agree that if we want to get something close to fully autonomous driving it will have to come through specially fitted roadwork. You could have the car self-drive on main roads and let the human handle the last couple of km to reach unsupported locations.

[Master Disaster]

13 minutes ago, Sauron said:

The problem is that you can't train it to recognize absolutely everything correctly. You're necessarily going to run into overfitting issues at some point. You can work around this sort of issue with sanity checks but only to a point.

 

And yes, dirty or broken road signs will *absolutely* throw off image recognition AI, no matter how good the camera is. Here's a real example from just last year: https://electrek.co/2020/02/19/tesla-autopilot-tricked-accelerate-speed-limit-sign/

 

Personally I'm very skeptical we'll get something that is truly and completely autonomous any time soon; I don't know what kind of network routing you use AI for but it's easy to see that it's not comparable to navigating roads. Network routing happens within a fairly well defined set of rules and you always have an accurate picture of the system's state. You can't assume the same for anything that senses and attempts to navigate the real world.

 

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

This really only going to happen, or should, when every car knows exactly where it is at all times and is connected in real time to traffic control so knows the speed limits and traffic data as well as additionally every car being locally connected to each other by proximity and shares information about what it is doing and also what it thinks the rules and conditions of the road is.

 

It's easy for one autonomous system to get it wrong, it's much harder for many multiples to make the same mistake especially if they all have different input information, as well as common input information.

 

Until road systems themselves are designed for autonomous vehicles then it's simply not to a strong enough degree of safety, until then firmly driver aids only.

https://www.plainsite.org/documents/242a2g/california-dmv-tesla-robotaxi--fsd-emails/

 

Contained in this email exchange between the California DMV & Tesla is an admission that the system current Tesla's have installed is level 2 and will always be level 2 despite Musk telling people that, by the time FSD (whish isn't actually FSD) hit Beta it would be at least level 3.

[Sauron]

3 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Contained in this email exchange between the California DMV & Tesla is an admission that the system current Tesla's have installed is level 2 and will always be level 2 despite Musk telling people that, by the time FSD (whish isn't actually FSD) hit Beta it would be at least level 3.

To be fair the wording seems to imply they won't do it because it would currently be illegal, not necessarily because it wouldn't work as level 3.

 

Though I have no doubt that it wouldn't.

[Master Disaster]

Just now, Sauron said:

To be fair the wording seems to imply they won't do it because it would currently be illegal, not necessarily because it wouldn't work as level 3.

 

Though I have no doubt that it wouldn't.

Well we have a perfect, closed and privately operated example.

 

The LVCC Loop, a 1 mile tunnel that Musk literally built from scratch and yet he still couldn't get anything more than level 2 autonomy working.

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Yep, and I wouldn't classify that as being "autonomous". We have similar systems today in warehouse management; automatic guidance vehicles that can respond to their immediate surroundings but depend on a central system to coordinate the "fleet". I don't know if I would trust something as potentially dangerous and on such a massive scale as traffic control to be handled through a wireless connection, even if you had sufficient processing power and a good enough control algorithm.

I'd still have the vehicles do their own processing and decision making but aided by those external data sources so it's not a system reliant only on it own sensors. Losing connection shouldn't be a problem because it's not going to forget the information it's been given and it'll still be highly relevant even in a long distance tunnel. Also with vehicle to vehicle data sharing that cuts down on those and other issues as well.

 

But more over I would require implementation of road systems with data transmitters as close together as road markers and intersections etc and if a vehicle is not within such a zone it's impossible and illegal to be in autonomous operation. That means only allow within city limits basically, unless a country wants to massive invest in major highway upgrades.

[Sauron]

5 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

The LVCC Loop, a 1 mile tunnel that Musk literally built from scratch and yet he still couldn't get anything more than level 2 autonomy working.

If only there was a way to get something to drive through a single-lane tunnel with virtually no chance of going wrong...

 

oh wait!

Spoiler

They literally just invented a terrible subway train.

 

Honestly I don't get how anyone could look at the whole boring company fiasco and see anything other than a scam.

[Master Disaster]

Just now, Sauron said:

If only there was a way to get something to drive through a single-lane tunnel with virtually no chance of going wrong...

 

oh wait!

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Honestly I don't get how anyone could look at the whole boring company fiasco and see anything other than a scam.

Very recently it emerged that, after a video hit YouTube of LVCC Loop Drivers talking to passengers about crashes, Musk made all of the drivers sign a contract that literally states they cannot do that any more and that they have to instead say how good it is to work for Elon and Tesla.

 

No I'm really not making that up.

[Sauron]

3 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

a video hit YouTube of LVCC Loop Drivers talking to passengers about crashes

What do you even do about a crash? Just try to climb out of the wreckage and walk to the end of the tunnel trying not to suffocate?

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, Sauron said:

What do you even do about a crash? Just try to climb out of the wreckage and walk to the end of the tunnel trying not to suffocate?

Nothing, they don't crash, that's what I was told.

[Master Disaster]

47 minutes ago, Sauron said:

What do you even do about a crash? Just try to climb out of the wreckage and walk to the end of the tunnel trying not to suffocate?

When I say crash, I mean scrapes and dings, AFAIK there's never been an actual "crash".

[leadeater]

24 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

When I say crash, I mean scrapes and dings, AFAIK there's never been an actual "crash".

Oh no, Musk got to him!

 

 lol

[Master Disaster]

48 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Oh no, Musk got to him!

 

 lol

I realise this was a joke but it actually proves the point very succinctly, nothing has exploded, no car has crashed into anything, its been a few tunnel side scrapes and corner dings yet he still felt the need to make all his staff have to deny it by contract.

[wanderingfool2]

3 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

SpaceX is not profitable, Tesla is not profitable, nothing Musk has ever done has ended in profitability.

Looks at my previous post regarding earnings, and then looks at the earning since Q3 2019...yes Tesla is so not profitable /s...let's just ignore the fact the publicly released information shows they are making a profit (since second half of 2019).  Their large cash reserve is based on investors, but that doesn't get counted towards revenue.

 

SpaceX is generally thought as being highly profitable, with the government contracts.  While it's not a public company, it's clear by the amount of money being spent without additional investor money (which btw is still a private company).

 

To your responses.

The Hyperloop by 2025 - To say it isn't happening but at the same time listing something in 2025...yes very good, nice timetravel device you own...but even with that  said, the hyperloop was literally thrown out as a joking idea that he hopped on.

Mars by 2025 - Their Falcon Heavy could actually bring people and cargo to mars, but in reality it would be a one way mission.  Also, Musk's timelines are always optimistic at best (going on current trajectories without production problems.  He has come out and said that in interviews.  It's best to set tighter deadlines and be delayed than setting a deadline way in the future and never completing it...human psychology if you give people more time to do the same task they will complete the same amount of work but take more time)

$100,000 ticket to Mars - "Maybe even as low as 100,000" != "100,000"...and the numbers being thrown around about a prototype ship.

FSD by 2019/Robotaxis - See above *idealistic timeline yes, but lots of companies promise tech that takes longer to come to market

Tesla Semi - Tesla Semi's actually do exist in prototype, the driving factor why they aren't on the market is the battery shortage (or rather put...one Tesla Semi you could sell 10 normal vehicles...and the 10 normal vehicles have a lot higher markup)

Cold gas jet propelled flying cars - You are sensationalizing things.  The new Roadster is still planned to have COPV's (mainly to break the speed barriers...as you can accelerate a lot faster than gravity that way)

VTOL electric planes - Yes because talking about dreaming about making one so means making

SolarCity being the "future of solar energy" - Solar and renewables will be the way we move forward

The Loop - (Giving this an X because he promised 150mph automated FSD 12 seat vehicles and delivered non auto Tesla cars with human drivers)

Reusable rockets are more cost effective - The basic math...so I am assuming you watch ThunderF00t, he twisted the numbers and out right chose wrong numbers

Lowered the cost of per KG to LEO by a factor of 10 - Cost does not equal prices charging the government.  SpaceX is making a killing off of the government contracts.

 

In a serious question, do you watch ThunderF00t videos? [And is that where you got the SpaceX stuff from].

 

The fact is, despite saying that this is clearly a publicity stunt to essentially get free advertisement...I have no doubt in 2-3 years it will be again people having to defend Tesla because it will be used as another "thing" against Tesla of a "broken promise".

 

  

3 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Agreed and TBC, I'm not taking anything away from the actual engineers at any of his companies. Both Tesla & SX obviously have a lot of very talented employees, its just that Musk is not one of them.

Elon's biggest talent is being able to surround himself with those engineers, and drum up interest to keep attracting those engineers.  A good example would be looking at the similarities between Tesla and Nikola...both making claims, but Tesla actually has the talent to back things up.  (Well that and they don't out right lie about technology they have)

 

 

[Master Disaster]

1 hour ago, wanderingfool2 said:

To your responses.

The Hyperloop by 2025 - To say it isn't happening but at the same time listing something in 2025...yes very good, nice timetravel device you own...but even with that  said, the hyperloop was literally thrown out as a joking idea that he hopped on.

Err what? No, it was him that started the entire thing and I don't need a time machine to tell you a 200 mile vacuum is not happening in his life, my life, your life or anyone born in the next 50 years life.

Quote

Mars by 2025 - Their Falcon Heavy could actually bring people and cargo to mars, but in reality it would be a one way mission.  Also, Musk's timelines are always optimistic at best (going on current trajectories without production problems.  He has come out and said that in interviews.  It's best to set tighter deadlines and be delayed than setting a deadline way in the future and never completing it...human psychology if you give people more time to do the same task they will complete the same amount of work but take more time)

Getting things into orbit and getting things to Mars are not even remotely similar. At this moment Musk has never demonstrated anything beyond ISS payload delivery and any other claims he is making are nothing but pure speculation on his part.

 

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Quote

$100,000 ticket to Mars - "Maybe even as low as 100,000" != "100,000"...and the numbers being thrown around about a prototype ship.

Right now it costs 10s of millions of dollars per seat to get to the ISS, IDGAF what he says he can do, he is not launching anything into Space for anything remotely close to 6 figures, ever. Fun fact, six figures doesn't even cover the fuel cost of an empty rocket by a factorial.

Quote

FSD by 2019/Robotaxis - See above *idealistic timeline yes, but lots of companies promise tech that takes longer to come to market

Earlier I posted an email exchange between Tesla & the DMV where Tesla admitted their current system is only capable of Level 2 autonomy and Level 3 is not possible without something entirely new. Level 3 is a dream until he demonstrates otherwise and remember, FSD is Level 5.

Quote

Tesla Semi - Tesla Semi's actually do exist in prototype, the driving factor why they aren't on the market is the battery shortage (or rather put...one Tesla Semi you could sell 10 normal vehicles...and the 10 normal vehicles have a lot higher markup)

No, the reason they're currently 30 months late (and counting) is because they make absolutely no sense in the real world. Hauliers DGAF about 0 - 60 speed, they do care about carry weight and the thing with the Tesla Semi is that 60% of its total highway allowed weight is taken up by batteries. Nobody actually bought one because it would have meant them taking a 60% reduction in volume moved per delivery.

Quote

Cold gas jet propelled flying cars - You are sensationalizing things.  The new Roadster is still planned to have COPV's (mainly to break the speed barriers...as you can accelerate a lot faster than gravity that way)

No I'm not, its straight from the horses mouth.

Quote

VTOL electric planes - Yes because talking about dreaming about making one so means making

Talking about dreaming? So the clip of him repeating the claim 6 or 7 times to 6 or 7 different audiences is what then?

Quote

SolarCity being the "future of solar energy" - Solar and renewables will be the way we move forward

And SolarCity won't be there after Musks brother ran the company into the ground then Musk tricked his investors into buying an insolvent company using Tesla money then immediately proceeded to gut the company, sever all ties and contracts and let the company collapse, after he had taken his own money out of it first of course.

Quote

The Loop - (Giving this an X because he promised 150mph automated FSD 12 seat vehicles and delivered non auto Tesla cars with human drivers)

?

Quote

Reusable rockets are more cost effective - The basic math...so I am assuming you watch ThunderF00t, he twisted the numbers and out right chose wrong numbers

Except he didn't and if you watched his follow up he explained the discrepancy. The simple fact is, he didn't change the one number because it didn't affect the outcome at all. When you're talking about 10 million more or 30 million more it really doesn't matter, neither is a win for the musk rats.

Quote

Lowered the cost of per KG to LEO by a factor of 10 - Cost does not equal prices charging the government.  SpaceX is making a killing off of the government contracts.

This is the biggest load of nonsense and I see it repeated over and over. If you go to the shop to buy X and X costs you $1 then the cost of X is $1. He said he has lowered the cost to LEO, the cost to LEO has increased with Dragon and no amount of spin will change that.

Quote

 

In a serious question, do you watch ThunderF00t videos? [And is that where you got the SpaceX stuff from].

I watch a lot of different creators and I try to watch a good balance but in the case of Musk, its so obvious he's a conman it wouldn't matter if the pope endorsed him.

 

I'll repeat this because its relevant to almost all the above points

 

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

 

Edit

 

Also getting back on topic....

 

Boston Dynamics have been in business for nearly 20 years, they've never turned a profit and are only still around because of one very passionate person.

 

In those 20 years they have created a robot dog that's operational and a humanoid that isn't close.

 

20 years for actual robotic engineers to create nothing that is marketable outside of niche applications and Musk, the guy who cannot get FSD working in a tunnel he literally bored himself reckons he can do it in a year? If you believe that then...

 

Did you know, I recently spoke to a guy who is looking to sell Tower Bridge in London, you interested?

[Guest willies leg]

It's so funny so many people here know what Tesla should and shouldn't do, but the fact of the matter is - what they are currently doing produced a company with over 700 billion dollar market cap.

I'd say they're doing something right. So do their shareholders (based on market cap) and their customers (https://insideevs.com/news/486130/tesla-consumer-reports-owner-satisfaction-win-2020/)

 

Looking forward to their disruption in the robot space, much like their disruption in all the other spaces they've conquered.

 

 

[Master Disaster]

24 minutes ago, willies leg said:

It's so funny so many people here know what Tesla should and shouldn't do, but the fact of the matter is - what they are currently doing produced a company with over 700 billion dollar market cap.

I'd say they're doing something right. So do their shareholders (based on market cap) and their customers (https://insideevs.com/news/486130/tesla-consumer-reports-owner-satisfaction-win-2020/)

 

Looking forward to their disruption in the robot space, much like their disruption in all the other spaces they've conquered.

 

 

First lets establish 2 basic fundamentals of security trading

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/09/difference-between-investing-speculating.asp

 

OK, now I'm going to post 2 links, one to GM and one to Tesla. The important number here is the P/E Ratio, this is a ratio between the current price of stock vs how much the company earns. A higher ratio means the companies shares cost more compared to earnings. Heck I'll even save you the trouble of having to click the links too

 

GM - https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GM?p=GM&.tsrc=fin-srch

GM P/E - 5.76

 

Tesla - https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/TSLA?p=TSLA&.tsrc=fin-srch

TSLA P/E - 376.28

 

Now I challenge you to go find any other company on Yahoo Finance from any market anywhere on Earth with a P/E over 100.

 

Amazon - 56

Alphabet - 31

Microsoft - 37

Apple - 28

Honda - 5

Toyota - 9

Coca Cola - 30

 

Noticing a pattern here?

 

Tesla are only making any money because of hyper inflated stock, their current market cap is totally unwarranted and totally unrealistic and sooner or later the bubble will burst, the market will self correct and anyone holding Tesla is in for a very bad day.

 

Edit - Also should point out, Tesla Motor Company has never and will never pay any of its shareholders any dividends on their investment. This turns it into a pyramid scheme since the only way to get out on top is to sell your shares to someone else for more than you paid, if you cannot do that you lose. The only people earning any real money are those at the top.

[Guest willies leg]

13 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

First lets establish 2 basic fundamentals of security trading

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/09/difference-between-investing-speculating.asp

 

OK, now I'm going to post 2 links, one to GM and one to Tesla. The important number here is the P/E Ratio, this is a ratio between the current price of stock vs how much the company earns. A higher ratio means the companies shares cost more compared to earnings. Heck I'll even save you the trouble of having to click the links too

 

GM - https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GM?p=GM&.tsrc=fin-srch

GM P/E - 5.76

 

Tesla - https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/TSLA?p=TSLA&.tsrc=fin-srch

TSLA P/E - 376.28

 

Now I challenge you to go find any other company on Yahoo Finance from any market anywhere on Earth with a P/E over 100.

 

Amazon - 56

Alphabet - 31

Microsoft - 37

Apple - 28

Honda - 5

Toyota - 9

Coca Cola - 30

 

Noticing a pattern here?

 

Tesla are only making any money because of hyper inflated stock, their current market cap is totally unwarranted and totally unrealistic and sooner or later the bubble will burst, the market will self correct and anyone holding Tesla is in for a very bad day.

 

Edit - Also should point out, Tesla Motor Company has never and will never pay any of its shareholders any dividends on their investment. This turns it into a pyramid scheme since the only way to get out on top is to sell your shares to someone else for more than you paid, if you cannot do that you lose. The only people earning any real money are those at the top.

 

Stock price is set by investors.

Investors are saying Tesla is worth way more money, and has way more potential, than others.

The masses of investors recognize the difference between a great leader and someone who just sells sugar water to their own monopoly. Not one person, the masses of investors.

Speculative is what happened to GameStop, stock price without any product or potential. This clearly isn't that. So many cars, so many solutions, so many gigafactories, so many happy people.

 

But hey, to each their own.

 

[Master Disaster]

1 minute ago, willies leg said:

 

Stock price is set by investors.

Investors are saying Tesla is worth way more money, and has way more potential, than others.

The masses of investors recognize the difference between a great leader and someone who just sells sugar water to their own monopoly. Not one person, the masses of investors.

Speculative is what happened to GameStop, stock price without any product or potential. This clearly isn't that. So many cars, so many solutions, so many gigafactories, so many happy people.

 

But hey, to each their own.

 

Nope, speculative trading simply means taking on a short term high risk investment that you know is likely to fail in order to sell it off in a matter of (usually) hours for a relatively high profit.

 

The productivity of the company has no bearing on it what so ever.

 

The masses of investors recognise the hyper inflated stock prices and realise they can make a metric fuck tonne of money in a short period of time as long as they're not the ones holding when it all collapses (hence it being short term high risk investment).

[Guest willies leg]

19 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Nope, speculative trading simply means taking on a short term high risk investment that you know is likely to fail in order to sell it off in a matter of (usually) hours for a relatively high profit.

 

The productivity of the company has no bearing on it what so ever.

 

The masses of investors recognise the hyper inflated stock prices and realise they can make a metric fuck tonne of money in a short period of time as long as they're not the ones holding when it all collapses (hence it being short term high risk investment).

 

Call it what you want, it ain't speculation at this point. Coca Cola in particular is dead money, the rest you mentioned aren't all that great either. Don't quit your day job.