Edit: Is frameworks Laptop really that special? Is it really the right answer?

[bobthepirate]

edit: I want to open the question and discussion a bit, becaus i cant find an answer for myself as designstudent and like the discussion (edit around post 21): Who is the framework laptop really for? Will in the end only tinkerers play with it and make use of it special features and not the general consumer, so it stays a niche product?  Will it really change the mindset of the general consumer? What would really be necessary to change the consumer behaviour regarding laptops and repair?

 

 

First: I am a big Fan of right to repair and servicing stuff by myself. In the last years I used a lot of Business Laptops, mainly from hp and what made the discussion about so Strange to me is, that a lot of the praised Things there, are Standard in Business Laptops? HP Provides for example for every Laptop (Not only Business and Not only Laptops) a Service and maintenance Manual with very detailled instructions for complete disassembly and servicing every Part of the Laptop( Here an example for their actual zbook 17, nearly 300 pages of instructions http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c06907534.pdf) . It also Provides partsnumbers for every Part and has a onlineshop where you can Order spare parts. (https://partsurfer.hp.com/). Hp is Not the only one as far as I know has lenovo something similair. These numbers are also very helpful for Shopping parts second Hand.

 

The question I ask myself, have become consumer products that Bad and unserviceable? Is the consumer too dumb or uninformed to find These Things? 

 

I know the Business lineups also have their borders. Hp for security reasons whitelists some parts, so for example it needs to be one of the exact wifi Modules the Machine could ship with and mxm gpus need the correct vbios (an dell mxm  gpu doesnt work in an hp Machine and so on) and so on..

 

What I would like to See Here from the ltt Crew regarding right to repair  is on the one hand Show people more how to use what is already there regarding repairability and servicing. If a Laptop or PC is showcased have one or two sentences about this. And be consequently calling them out for shit and Not matching Standards. Soldered ram or ssds or glued stuff. On the other Hand Regarding Standards und supporting framework make them the Gold Standard. Support them by naming them for what they are in this field. As a regulär watcher I know what the fastest cpu is, because everithing gets constantly compared to it. For CPUs there are Benchmarks like cinebench or watt usage etc. I would love to See ltt create your right to repair and Environment Benchmarks and call others out based on this. Make it one of the comparison metrics for products like weight or Performance or Temperature is too. An call out Hard Bad practices like glueing and soldering parts. 

 

 

 

edit:typos

[8tg]

It’s only getting attention because it’s very different and it’s lining up with current discussions on the right to repair movement.

Remember Phonebloks?

and then suddenly Motorola goes:

and then everyone stopped caring because this product was dumb and nobody would buy it

 

same deal here, the framework laptop is appealing to a very small market, a market of people who already own machines they can service, and at the end of the day it’s a consumer tier machine with an extremely steep price tag and borderline proprietary “modules”

 

The business laptop analogy  is a good reference here. I can take apart my thinkpad P50 without issue down to it’s bare components, it has 2 nvme slots and a 2.5” sata port. It also optionally has a 2nd 2.5” sata port if you don’t use nvme. It has 4 ram slots, 3 mini pcie slots, every external I/o port anyone could ever need, it has 2 ways of plugging into docks to expand that further, you can replace wear component easily, you can replace body components, you can replace the battery. It comes with a booklet that tells you how to do all that.

 

the only difference between that P50 and the framework laptop is the framework laptop costs more and the external block things are specific to the framework laptop

 

hell, look at what people do with old thinkpads in general, 51nb and other groups have made entirely new modern internals for old thinkpads, you can take an X60/61 from 2006(2007?) and put a board into it with modern hardware, drop in a 1920x1440p display and brand new batteries, because just the same as the framework laptop partially relies on the modding community for long term upgrades, the thinkpad community has been doing it for years

There’s people right now with 9 year old thinkpad X230’s they figured out how to put 1080p displays and mobile ivy bridge quadcores on, with bga soldering and custom firmware and modified heatsinks involved. 
This isn’t anything new, it’s commercialization of it, which is fine but the reason every time someone tries this it fails is because nobody cares about it besides extreme nerds, and chances are extreme nerds would rather DIY it anyway.

 

[8tg]

So my prediction is this is either going to die because they over hype it, leaving some stray models in the wild, or it’ll remain a super niche item on the market much like buying Pinebooks now. They’re there, you can buy them, but you don’t see a ton of them for a reason.

[flibberdipper]

42 minutes ago, 8tg said:

So my prediction is this is either going to die because they over hype it, leaving some stray models in the wild, or it’ll remain a super niche item on the market much like buying Pinebooks now. They’re there, you can buy them, but you don’t see a ton of them for a reason.

I personally see it going the same way as Phonebloks. A few people care for a year or two and then it fucks off into obscurity.

[YoungBlade]

One of the biggest things that the Framework laptop has going for it is that it is consumer facing and modern looking.

 

The classic examples of repairable laptops have been mentioned: mobile workstations like the Thinkpad and ZBook. Yes, they are repairable, and that's part of why enthusiasts love them. But those things are big, heavy, and not what a typical consumer would call "elegant." I actually found one of my sisters a good deal on an old ZBook a few months ago, and she turned her nose up at it in part because of the look, the 3 mouse buttons, the trackpoint, and the fact that it weighed twice as much as her previous laptop. Normal people don't want a ZBook. They want a Macbook.

 

And that is exactly the excuse that manufactures like Lenovo and HP have given for why they "have to" make their laptops hard to repair: consumers don't want chunky, ugly, heavy laptops. Obviously, if they used standard components and slotted everything in, the result would be that kind of hulking monstrosity, and no consumer would buy it... Except, that's not true.

 

Framework has demonstrated that that whole argument is BS. A random startup made a modern laptop that is as repairable as a Thinkpad. So, no, the big boys have not run into the limits of socketable components. They were not forced to glue things shut in order to save space. They're just lazy and greedy. They see no benefit to working within those constraints, but do see the benefits of locking down hardware; it's planned obsolescence.

 

And, as you mentioned, with other companies, you have to go to them for replacement parts. Even if you are lucky enough to get a system where the WiFi module is socketed, you can't use an "unapproved" WiFi module, while Framework lets you bring your own.

 

I'm not sure if Framework can make it work. I'd like to see a company like them succeed, but their current pricing isn't that competitive and they are anything but a household name. $1000 for a 4 core i5, iGPU, 8GB of RAM isn't great. Yes, they all have NVMe and WiFi 6, which are premium features, but they aren't the core specs that people are looking for when they buy a laptop.

 

Considering that this is a first attempt, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. They're trying to recover a lot of R&D money from creating this laptop. Once some of that money has been recovered, I'm hoping that they can bring a better generation of their laptops to market. If they can give us 6 and 8 core CPUs and/or allow for dedicated graphics to justify that $1000-1500 price point (without jacking up the price to $2000), then I think they'll be in a good spot. Plus, thanks to their business model, with higher core count options, they aren't just looking at new customers. They could sell those new boards to previous customers for an upgrade, proving that their laptops are able to be used long term.

 

And that's another way that Framework is different. HP and Lenovo don't sell newer generation motherboards and CPUs to existing laptop owners. You have to buy a whole new laptop.

[bobthepirate]

Thanks for your responses. I share your Thinkpad experiences with my HP Z-Books and older elitebooks and love how people tinker with them (and hate intel for stopping making socketed laptop cpus).

 

For the consumer i sadly totally see the framework as a niche product. And as person who prefers repairability over looks i often forget the other way of thinking and the appeal of a slim and fancy design.

 

Everey laptop i recomend to friends are mostly used business models with the order to ask me if they want to upgrade or need a repair, because it is so easily possible and new business machines come most of the time with a hefty for normal user not understandable "service and warranty tax" which is not payable for people in my age/profession (university students) but totally worth if you are professional user. And yeah i have friends who preferred the macbook over an elitebook.

 

I Notice the boarders here of the repairability/tinkerer mindset. The consumer who would not try to open his normal laptop will propably not open his framework laptop. fancy looks or not.  I have not figured out, for whom this product really is. Not every person is a tinkerer or want to become one and that is okay.

 

The question is, in which direction should Laptop makers really go regarding repairability? And for what do they need to be called out for? Or to aks differently, what would be the right answer, if framwork maybe isn't?

 

What i would like to see are more standardised parts. I hate bios whitelisting an that mxm is so difficult for laptops and you mostly are stuck within the laptop manufacturer and the gpu generation. So if you are a more performance-orientated user you are forced to regularly upgrade. Spare-Part availability in general has a huge impact i think. No glue and not soldering everything on one board. Documentation also plays a great role. I hate that after some time, there are only third party batteries left on the market, with the battery being a crucial part for a mobile device that is defnitily degenerating over time. In this regard the framework tries to tackle a lot of the problems and i hope the suceed.

 

On the other hand i ask myself, what changes the repair-businesses and repair industry needs, to make repairing laptops sustainable. Where do the needs here differ from the tinkerer?

 

Last thing i see is the Consumer and here i see a lot responsebility for media and influencing parrties like LMG. I think they need to make repairablity and environmental impact a normal "performance metric", one way of looking on a product. For me it would be weird to talk about a car's looks and space but not mention gas consumption or long term maintenance cost. Consumer electronics as throwaway product with 2 year lifecycle at best has become a "normal" that it shoud not have and it should be called out hard for that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kelvinhall05]

The Framework is really not as revolutionary as people think it is. Yeah the IO is hotswappable but there is so little of it, my X260 has a smaller footprint and has HDMI, miniDP, 3x USB, fullsize SD, SIM (for LTE), smartcard, fullsize ethernet, headphone/microphone jack, and a docking connector that allows me to run 3 displays at once (along with a bunch of USB, audio, etc). The Framework's battery is not hotswappable, removable RAM and storage is absolutely not revolutionary, everything being screwed (as opposed to glue or something) in is also not revolutionary, etc etc etc.

 

They took a business laptop in terms of repairability, gave it a weird swappable IO gimmick, and made the battery internal so you can't hotswap. Oh, and it's extremely overpriced for the specs you get (I understand why, but that doesn't mean I'll forgive it). And I would be amazed if they supported it for more than a couple years.

[Roswell]

I think it's facing two big issues...

 

1. There's no meaningful upgradability, you're stuck with the processor you get, no dedicated GPU options and no way to upgrade the display. These are the three biggest areas people desire to upgrade. 
2. Your average consumer doesn't care about repairing their own computer and they definitely don't care about how easy it is for repair shops.

It's going to be super niche. I don't think they'll ever break into mass adoption and compete with large OEMs.

[Zusafek]

Personally I'm quite pleased with the design and the modularity of this new system.  To me it tends to tailor to those who might not be as well versed, nor as comfortable with doing upgrades/repairs on their own.  It reminds me of the MotoZ line of cell phones as well.  Still have mine and love being able to hotswap my different pieces.  

 

I'm looking at this to replace my Surface Pro 3.  

[LAwLz]

Haven't watched the LTT video about it but yeah, framework seems to not really be anything special compared to for example my HP elitebook. 

The only unique feature is the IO modules, and I honestly don't think those are that special either. It might be able to save you buying and carrying a dongle but that's about it.

 

To me it seems like framework is just a fairly standard laptop with a gimmicky IO module thing, and some QR codes in case you don't know how an M.2 slot looks, and that's about it. 

 

It seems like an alright laptop (although quite pricey) but judging by how crazy Linus was about it on the WAN show i expected more. 

Oh cool, a laptop where you can order replacement parts and swap out some components. Like my previous HP laptops... 

[Arika]

8 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Haven't watched the LTT video about it but yeah, framework seems to not really be anything special compared to for example my HP elitebook. 

The main thing that has stopped me from buying an elitebook, is HPs obsession with throwing all the main ports on the right side, that's where my mouse goes. Not cables 

[Lurick]

8 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Haven't watched the LTT video about it but yeah, framework seems to not really be anything special compared to for example my HP elitebook. 

The only unique feature is the IO modules, and I honestly don't think those are that special either. It might be able to save you buying and carrying a dongle but that's about it.

 

To me it seems like framework is just a fairly standard laptop with a gimmicky IO module thing, and some QR codes in case you don't know how an M.2 slot looks, and that's about it. 

 

It seems like an alright laptop (although quite pricey) but judging by how crazy Linus was about it on the WAN show i expected more. 

Oh cool, a laptop where you can order replacement parts and swap out some components. Like my previous HP laptops... 

So HP publishes the full schematics for repair of the entire laptop along with blueprints and whatnot as well? You can take third party pieces and install them for anything you want in the HP laptop?

[Lacrima]

WOW YOU CAN CHANGE THE RAM AND THE SSD?! Revolutionary! That definitely has never been done before! /s

The frameworks laptop is overhyped thanks to LTT, the stupid IO gimick among other things won't save it, It'll end up like phonebloks. First off you can't hotswap the battery, you're stuck with a soldered on CPU and it's extremely overpriced for what it is. They somehow made people think just because you can change the ram and ssd it's the second coming.

And the whole "We'll ship a new motherboard with a new CPU down the line when new stuff comes out"  has been done before with Apple's powerbooks, It ended up with franken-books with older screens,etc. with new cpu's.

I'm willing to bet that they won't last very long; they already don't have a very sizeable market, not making a gaming laptop which is what most enthusiast are probably looking for imo a bad decision

 

TL;DR: Nothing new, has been done before and didn't catch on

[Lurick]

15 minutes ago, ArdaBarda said:

WOW YOU CAN CHANGE THE RAM AND THE SSD?! Revolutionary! That definitely has never been done before! /s

The frameworks laptop is overhyped thanks to LTT, the stupid IO gimick among other things won't save it, It'll end up like phonebloks. First off you can't hotswap the battery, you're stuck with a soldered on CPU and it's extremely overpriced for what it is. They somehow made people think just because you can change the ram and ssd it's the second coming.

And the whole "We'll ship a new motherboard with a new CPU down the line when new stuff comes out"  has been done before with Apple's powerbooks, It ended up with franken-books with older screens,etc. with new cpu's.

I'm willing to bet that they won't last very long; they already don't have a very sizeable market, not making a gaming laptop which is what most enthusiast are probably looking for imo a bad decision

 

TL;DR: Nothing new, has been done before and didn't catch on

So let me get this right? Because it was tried before and failed we should just give the fuck up it completely?

No, fuck that bullshit line of thinking. Just because something didn't succeed before does NOT mean we should give up on anything that tries to improve and iterate on that. Where did Apple/Dell/HP/[Insert OEM here] provide full support for repairing any part of the device, giving the user the ability to fix and upgrade anything if they so choose? When have we had any kind of modular capability allowing third parties to come in and provide additional components not thought about day one? And no, storage/ram doesn't count. Seriously, half the discussion around this is "well it failed from XYZ so anyone trying it is a fucking twit who should fail too"

 

If you're happy with buying the next e-waste computer from whatever company you want then fine but take your cynicism and bug off when others try to change that way of thinking.

[Blademaster91]

I would definitely want a Framework laptop, if they made one with a 15" display, and an option for an AMD Ryzen CPU.

And I think people are missing the point for criticizing the laptop for having removable IO modules, either most seem to not care about being able to add or change port selection, or got accustomed to need to carry around dongles.

Also, of course you can upgrade business laptops, but most people aren't buying business laptops. Being able to replace the RAM and SSD in a thin and light form factor laptop is a feature you won't find in most other consumer laptops. And Framework letting you replace the wifi module with whatever you want is also really nice, as most other companies such as HP and Dell only let you replace the wifi module with another approved HP or Dell part.

[Lacrima]

16 minutes ago, Lurick said:

So let me get this right? Because it was tried before and failed we should just give the fuck up it completely?

No, fuck that bullshit line of thinking. Just because something didn't succeed before does NOT mean we should give up on anything that tries to improve and iterate on that. Where did Apple/Dell/HP/[Insert OEM here] provide full support for repairing any part of the device, giving the user the ability to fix and upgrade anything if they so choose? When have we had any kind of modular capability allowing third parties to come in and provide additional components not thought about day one? And no, storage/ram doesn't count. Seriously, half the discussion around this is "well it failed from XYZ so anyone trying it is a fucking twit who should fail too"

 

If you're happy with buying the next e-waste computer from whatever company you want then fine but take your cynicism and bug off when others try to change that way of thinking.

MXM, socket G1&G2&G3, the whole thing powerbooks did that kinda did succeed but not really, the very easily servicable desktop replacement laptops made by MSI, Alienware and a few other manufacturers around 2012-2014, ... The list goes on. After a certain point you should start to see the pattern, It's literal insanity, it's doing the same exact fucking thing over and over again expecting it to change

[8tg]

31 minutes ago, Lurick said:

When have we had any kind of modular capability allowing third parties to come in and provide additional components not thought about day one?

1990 to 2006 followed by expresscard until very recently with thunderbolt replacing expresscard 

not a new idea 

[Lurick]

8 minutes ago, 8tg said:

1990 to 2006 followed by expresscard until very recently with thunderbolt replacing expresscard 

not a new idea 

So I can make my own screen and swap it out without having to buy one sanctioned by [oem here]? Make my own board using the freely and widely available blueprints from that same OEM? Swap out the camera one day or speaker system? Or perhaps use any wireless card I want to because I can reference all the antenna specs and whatnot available in those blueprints referenced earlier? A third party can easily provide additional ports above and beyond the base modules using a singular interface type?

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, Lurick said:

So HP publishes the full schematics for repair of the entire laptop along with blueprints and whatnot as well? You can take third party pieces and install them for anything you want in the HP laptop?

It depends on how granular we're talking. 

Yes, you can replace parts with third party parts as long as they fit. Things like the memory, RAM, wireless module and storage are all using standard sockets. Things like the mainboard and screen can not be replaced with third party parts but neither can be said about the framework laptop from what I can tell. 

Parts aren't glued down either so you can, if you want to, replace things like the battery. HP has intrusions for that too. 

 

HP allows you to order replacement parts and have video instructions on how to go about repairing them yourself. 

Here is an example. It shows how to replace everything from individual cables, the panel and even fingerprint scanner. 

They publish written manuals as well if you prefer that.

 

And yes, you can replace parts with other third party parts and it will work. However, the market for aftermarket parts is very small and niche so not a whole lot of parts that fit specific dimensions exists. This will most likely be an issue with the framework laptop as well. 

For example here is a replacement screen for the Elitebook 840 G6 from a third party. 

https://www.amazon.com/BRIGHTFOCAL-Elitebook-L62773-001-Non-Touch-Replacement/dp/B0893HZV3D

 

[Lurick]

Just now, LAwLz said:

It depends on how granular we're talking. 

Yes, you can replace parts with third party parts as long as they fit. Things like the memory, RAM, wireless module and storage are all using standard sockets. Things like the mainboard and screen can not be replaced with third party parts but neither can be said about the framework laptop from what I can tell. 

Parts aren't glued down either so you can, if you want to, replace things like the battery. HP has intrusions for that too. 

 

HP allows you to order replacement parts and have video instructions on how to go about repairing them yourself. 

Here is an example.

There are companies out there that will whitelist explicit parts and modules that you can use, Dell is/was notorious for this and I'm pretty sure HP and Lenovo are guilty of doing it at some point too. It's nice to see at least one big manufacturer trying to open up by providing some support but until we get to the point that you can identify and try to repair more granular stuff on your own we've got a long way to go. Take dell for example, I cannot in any way find out what frequencies the antennas in their laptops support, nowhere on their site does it come close to mentioning anything other than two wireless modules that are supported for the G15 Ryzen model laptop (as an example). I have no clue if I could swap out a WiFi 6E module and it would properly work. There is proprietary stuff, sure, but don't hide even the most basic of information and call it fine. I can find out literally any bit of information (at least that I tried to find out) down to controllers and other details I needed without having to dig through mountains of useless information. They don't mention screen replacements offered via third parties right now but that might just be an oversight and I'm sure you could easily do it if you wanted.

 

[8tg]

22 minutes ago, Lurick said:

So I can make my own screen and swap it out without having to buy one sanctioned by [oem here]? Make my own board using the freely and widely available blueprints from that same OEM? Swap out the camera one day or speaker system? Or perhaps use any wireless card I want to because I can reference all the antenna specs and whatnot available in those blueprints referenced earlier? A third party can easily provide additional ports above and beyond the base modules using a singular interface type?

Ever seen a 51nb thinkpad?

Here’s an X210, it’s a coffee lake board tossed into Nehalem machine. Full modding capabilities beyond that include replacing the screen with whatever you want, camera, speakers, antenna and wifi module replacements, optionally adding LTE connectivity or generally just whatever you feel like. 
You don’t really need OEM documentation to do these things, 51nb is just a group of nerds in China who made their own motherboards as a hobby and figured out they could sell them too. 
It’s the same deal with the framework laptop. Even if they didn’t release every bit of information needed to modify the board, people would still just design their own board if they cared enough.

 

Thats why I don’t see this product going anywhere, the people who would buy this as anything more than a novelty already own things like the above X210, which is the same thing except it doesn’t have little modular external I/o ports.

Though any model with expresscard does, since that’s by design a hot swappable pcie slot you can do whatever you want with. Toss in USB 3.0, card readers, wlan, LTE, Ethernet connections, storage, or adapters to basically anything you can think of. There are expresscard sound cards, I own one and use it in my thinkpad P50.

I mean look at the specs on some of these machines and what they’re doing with them:

http://www.cnmod.cn/x210/
Theyre working on a further iteration of the X210 that’s 10th gen with a 3000x2000 display.

 

This is what I mean, everything the framework laptop is, people have already been doing.

[bobthepirate]

Thanks for the answers so far! What was said so far adds for me the question: Who is the framework laptop for?

 

The last comments Show, a lot of people do not know, that a lot of Laptop-Parts are standard parts by third Party manufacturers and generally interchangeable with third party parts: Ram, ssd, HDD, DVD/Blueray, display. These are third party parts. Go to panelook.com enter your Panelspecifics (eg pins on the back and where the mounting screws are) and choose the panel with resolution and type you like.

 

A lot of parts are generally interchangeable third party parts like the ones above, but sometimes get restricted by the manufacturer per whitelist in the bios for various reasons (for example security or power management): Wlan Cards, WAN-Cards, GPUs with MXM....

 

A lot of parts are often interchangeable within the manufacturere Lineup with many different models: Example would be here HP with webcams or keyboards (which in the Business Lineup can be often usable for 10 or more different models, sizes, generations) , power adapters, battery. Sometimes models just get a cpu or gpu refresh and a lot of the interior stays the same so for example zbook 17 g3 and g4, so daughter boards or chassis could also be reused.

 

I notice two different User groups for Laptops who could benefit from frameworks approach, either long term users (for watching Videos, browsing, Office), where a Laptop can last 5 to 10 years without slowing noticeable down for the user (a second gen i5 still feels snappy enough with an ssd here) . Problem Here are Things like the battery who definitly degrade and are hard to find as spare, or mechanical stressed parts like the Display cable In the hinge. The other ones are Power users who need a mobile Workstation or gaming Machine, where CPU or gpu Upgrades make a huge impact and could enhance, if made possible, the overall lifespan of a Laptop greatly. I hope, framework finds a way to deliver here. If i look at all the upgrade cycles that left my desktop pc a patchwork mixed build i could see myself skipping mobile upgrade cycles. Here i see big problems comming, GPU upgrade with MXM were not only a problem with whitelist or vbios but also changes in power consumption or power spikes with new generation and old slots not designed for that.

 

I notice how usb-c/thunderbolt save a lot of e waste... Universal docking stations , adding Monitors, nvme or egpus, often are able to Charge the Laptop (and Smartphones and Powerbanks and other electrical machines) all by the same port is great (and jeah… again different specification with usb c port and different bandwith here sucks…and makes buying the right cables a mess, but it has the potential to be really great..using an external nvme with 980mb/s felt crazy).

 

The Port Expansion on the framework is only a gimmick for me. Yes there have been express cards (which could add usb ports or connect an external gpu(egpu) to a laptop if the laptop interface was right), but I am happy the way usb c and especially thunderbolt as universal hub connetor go with huge bandwith and See them as the future and have no problem with using a dongle if extra or special ports or functions are needed (Laptops should still have an usb-a Port at least and the more the better, i dont like apples aproach here ). Dongles are in my thinking more versatile and universal usable than a laptop specific port addon, which creates e-waste.

 

The thing is: With all the tinkering examples shown here (DAMN the X210 with 10thgen intel is great!!!) and the existing documentation, a lot is already possible if you WANT to. Yes not perfectly in every possible way but a lot if you can follow a pictured manual step by step and use a screwdriver. But a lot could be done….and is not done by the typical consumer. Question here is: will framework really change that? Is that the right aproach to change that behaviour?

 

An other thing i talked short earlier is the "warranty and service tax" for business models. Yes these things have hefty prices, but I noticed how these changed my behaviour and perspective on these kind of laptops. Again me talking as a bit of a HP fanboy here, but i want to give an example here: Zbooks come with 3 year warranty on site next day worldwide (at least here in germany), which can be upped to 5years WARRANTY total. The manufacturer plans to service these things for 5 years or more and has spare parts ready. I had to deal with business customer support once ( i gambled on ebay on a very cheap partly defective zbook from the other end of the world which had two month warranty left and as it turned out a defective motherboard). Service was like: "lets find the error, no further questions asked. Your laptop has warranty, we make it work. We dont care where you bought it, if you have proof of purchase or what you have done to it. Warranty is warranty, you get a call in 10 minutes from our technican, he visits you tomorrow and changes the defective parts…again no questions asked and no discussion and of yourse free…becaus warranty." This was mindblowing for me, undestanding the impact service and warranty can have on the lifetime of products. Not the apple "oh no your breath near your macbook was too wet, sorry no repair" approach. Louis rossman tortured his Thnkpad p50 in one of his videos, spilling a bottle of water over it and had also no qustions asked, when he had to replace it (i think  half a year later). 

 

With this long warranty approach the manufacturer has of course interest in easy repairs. Would something like this, extended warranties (maybe by law or by the manufacturer itself) have a much bigger environmental impact than a tinkerer lego-style Laptop? And have a much bigger impact on the general consumer and the mindset of these?

 

I change the title of the question and edit my first question to open this topic a bit?