WAN show debriefing forum subsection

[7heo]

What the title says

 

I believe Linus and Luke make a lot of good points (and some less good) during the WAN show, and it would be worth it IMHO to have one thread per WAN show, in a dedicated subforum, for people to debrief. I know I would like to react to, and discuss at least one or two topics every time for several WAN show now. Please give us this section

[Kilrah]

-> Moved to Forum Suggestions.

 

I also think all of LTT's channels should have their subforum with a thread for each video. Currently only LTT videos seem to have threads, and not always...

[7heo]

3 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

Moved to Forum Suggestions

Thanks, I literally searched for this section and could not find it. So I searched for another suggestion (the one about having a house remodeling subforum) and posted in the same subforum.

 

Edit: I'm using a "smart"phone, maybe it's easier to find with a PC.

[Master Disaster]

A few years back they used to post the full WAN Show Doc in its own topic for us to discuss. I guess either whoever used to do that left LMG or they made a conscious decision to not post it any more.

 

IMO a good solution would be to split LMG Official up into subs, one for each channel, then have each new video posted as it goes live but I realise this is probably not workable since its a fair chunk of extra work that someone has to do.

[Dutch_Master]

3 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

split LMG Official up into subs, one for each channel, then have each new video posted as it goes live but I realise this is probably not workable since its a fair chunk of extra work that someone has to do.

There's some (one-off) work dividing the existing topics into the various subforums, but subforum creation and usage isn't any more cumbersome then the current workflow, IMO.

 

+1 on a WAN show debrief topic/subforum

[7heo]

4 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

it's a fair chunk of extra work that someone has to do.

I mean, if it is technically possible to give a user privileges on a subsection only; we could split the load among volunteers. But with videos being released randomly (time wise), this should probably be done (mostly) by people in the PST timezone. I know I try to catch the WAN show as it goes live every time, but being on GMT+2 does not help at all: the show goes up from 2AM to 6AM for me.

[ooh shiny]

15 hours ago, 7heo said:

I mean, if it is technically possible to give a user privileges on a subsection only; we could split the load among volunteers. But with videos being released randomly (time wise), this should probably be done (mostly) by people in the PST timezone. I know I try to catch the WAN show as it goes live every time, but being on GMT+2 does not help at all: the show goes up from 2AM to 6AM for me.

It's robot work anyway.. surely some script can post it to the forums.

Anyway, I would love to see this! I love seeing what people think but the YT comments in playback are, ehh, not my bag

[BondiBlue]

This is an idea I definitely like. I listen to the WAN show usually a few days after it's live while driving to work, and it would be nice to have a place to discuss specific topics with others. The WAN doc would be nice as well. 

[LogicalDrm]

There's slight problem from moderation perspective. And that's discussion topics that are, for good reasons, not allowed on forums.

 

Mainly this would be topics that cross-over or are purely about politics. These are not allowed at all, and allowing them in this one subforum would defeat the point of the rule being in place. Another is some other topics that for reason or another bring out strong opinions. Blizzards thing for example of late, and also before (we often use the clip from that WAN Show to defend "no politics" rule).

 

The moderation of topics in LMG official sections is bit different than from other sections. Also  any criticism towards LMG is allowed as long as its constructive and mature (name calling and other personal attacks, including criticism of personal traits such as looks is not allowed). To that, section operated by members, but about LMG falls bit in between those lines.

[Guest]

On 7/31/2021 at 8:00 PM, Master Disaster said:

A few years back they used to post the full WAN Show Doc in its own topic for us to discuss. I guess either whoever used to do that left LMG or they made a conscious decision to not post it any more.

 

IMO a good solution would be to split LMG Official up into subs, one for each channel, then have each new video posted as it goes live but I realise this is probably not workable since its a fair chunk of extra work that someone has to do.

i think it used to be Jake. Tbh i think they just stopped and didn't care - which is fair since they didn't get used much. I'd expect if someone wants to talk about the topic, they used to pick out news from the news threads, so the discussion was already there. Kind of like how redundant the techlinked threads are. 

[Spotty]

I believe they stopped because WAN show was filmed after hours on Friday and most people have left the office and were on their way home. No-one really wanted to stick around an hour or hour and half after work to wait to post the youtube stream on the forum for a thread that admittedly wasn't getting a lot of attention.

 

If there's a particular news topic that was discussed on the WAN show then check the Tech News subforum, many news topics discussed on the WAN show also have a discussion thread on the forum. If there's a tech related news topic they discuss that doesn't already have a discussion thread in the Tech News section then feel free to create one if you want to discuss it. If you want to discuss a more Linus-centric topic that isn't necessarily tech news, such as buying the wall or investing in framework from recent weeks WAN shows then feel free to create a topic to discuss those in General Discussion.

[7heo]

4 hours ago, LogicalDrm said:

There's slight problem from moderation perspective. And that's discussion topics that are, for good reasons, not allowed on forums.

 

Mainly this would be topics that cross-over or are purely about politics.

I wasn't aware did not think of this. I have read the rules after joining (several months after, since I did not see them as a "must read" before I joined, and was not aware this forum had rules in addition to the usual "netiquette"), and I do not did not remember the mention of forbidden topics, aside from what would obviously harm (or attempt to) LTT's business.

 

I will re-read the rules, but that would be really nice of you if you could illustrate what would fall under those rules with a few WAN show topics.

 

Edit: re-read the rules, and the "political discussion" being banned is clearly mentioned. I did not understand, when answering, what @LogicalDrm meant with "cross-over", but in the light of the following post and explanation: any topic that might eventually include politics. And I answered subsequently, as this is bound to become literally "everything", given enough time.

[LogicalDrm]

32 minutes ago, 7heo said:

I wasn't aware of this. I have read the rules after joining (several months after, since I did not see them as a "must read" before I joined, and was not aware this forum had rules in addition to the usual "netiquette"), and I do not remember the mention of forbidden topics, aside from what would obviously harm (or attempt to) LTT's business.

 

I will re-read the rules, but that would be really nice of you if you could illustrate what would fall under those rules with a few WAN show topics.

The "no political or religious debates" rule should have already been in place, under "No trolling or flame-baits" rules. Total ban was added in late 2020 because the issues caused were too much to handle. Examples? Any discussion about country banning something. Any discussion where politically motivated decisions are in play, like Right to Repair movement. These might be tech topics, but also cross to political side of things. And ofc, the previous Blizzard drama (and pretty much anything after that regarding Chinese actions):

This is timestamped, but this is also the topic I referecned earlier.

[7heo]

Sorry, @LogicalDrm, I wanted to edit my answer to correct it after re-reading the rules, but using the LTT forum on a phone is a horrible pain in the rectum. I was literary unable to edit the text without destroying it (maybe I should do a feedback thread on the forum UX on a phone, because it is barely usable).

 

1 hour ago, LogicalDrm said:

Total ban was added in late 2020 because the issues caused were too much to handle.

I know you're being purposely vague on this subject, not citing the country, not citing the event, and that is probably because of moderator-PTSD; but I feel like if we have to ban all topics where people can't discuss in a civilized fashion, it's only a matter of time before we end up on a "greeting-only" forum... It might be better to specifically ban precise topics (like "the 2020 US election") than "politics" in general, if this ends up banning everything by creeping extension. Indeed:

 

1 hour ago, LogicalDrm said:

Right to Repair movement

if we ban discussions on the Right to Repair movement, we then have to be very wary of discussing, let alone linking, Louis Rossmann's content. And it's also disputable whether or not we can even talk about "frame.work".

 

Now, I perfectly get the rationale behind this. A "blanket ban" is a lot easier to manage than precise exceptions, as you do not have to constantly deal with the people being moderated. They are happy seeing that they are not treated differently "just because" they want "this precise group of people" to suffer more (whatever their motivation is). I just find it depressing and sad that we can't talk about very important topics like the Right to Repair just because a few adult-babies will flood the discussion with noise, causing as much emotional turmoil as possible...

 

*   *   *

 

Anyhow, as @ooh shiny said, this should be automated.

3 hours ago, Spotty said:

because WAN show was filmed after hours on Friday and most people have left the office

Since videos from LTT are mostly scripted, and have predefined talking points, it would not theoretically be too hard to feed that script/document to a robot, preemptively redacting points that would go against the aforementioned rules; and post them automatically as soon as a video with a corresponding title goes live on the specific channel it is planned for.

 

I personally have wanted automation around LTT for a while, if only to get an alert when the WAN show goes live (for example to set an alarm clock when the description on twitch changes; so that I have time to prepare, get the cold beer and the peanuts, etc), etc.

 

I would volunteer to work on this (using the youtube, twitch, floatplane, invision, etc APIs and running the bot myself) but I don't know where the staff stands on this and I don't want to ruffle any feathers

[LogicalDrm]

2 hours ago, 7heo said:

I know you're being purposely vague on this subject, not citing the country, not citing the event, and that is probably because of moderator-PTSD; but I feel like if we have to ban all topics where people can't discuss in a civilized fashion, it's only a matter of time before we end up on a "greeting-only" forum... It might be better to specifically ban precise topics (like "the 2020 US election") than "politics" in general, if this ends up banning everything by creeping extension. Indeed:

The thing is, the list would become enormous. if you want actual reasons, they were US 2016 elections, US 2020 elections, Chinese government actions in general, Russian government actions in general. Some EU privacy and copyright laws. Venezuala&Adobe (my first hard clean as moderator). Those are just few examples. Hence, "no politics" blanket ban. The discussion was banned from topics way before the full ban later. We allowed some discussion in Status Updates, but as the line was hard to draw, it was better overall to move where we are now. I can fetch the SU by @colonel_mortis discussing about this rule change.

 

 

Quote

if we ban discussions on the Right to Repair movement, we then have to be very wary of discussing, let alone linking, Louis Rossmann's content. And it's also disputable whether or not we can even talk about "frame.work".

 

Now, I perfectly get the rationale behind this. A "blanket ban" is a lot easier to manage than precise exceptions, as you do not have to constantly deal with the people being moderated. They are happy seeing that they are not treated differently "just because" they want "this precise group of people" to suffer more (whatever their motivation is). I just find it depressing and sad that we can't talk about very important topics like the Right to Repair just because a few adult-babies will flood the discussion with noise, causing as much emotional turmoil as possible...

You misinterpret what I meant. We would still allow discussion of technical side of things, and of politics to the same level with Tech News content. So laws, political decisions etc. in the view of tech-enthusiast/user. But as Linus and Luke make takes on political topics beyond tech in WAN Show, with subforum for WAN Shows would also be very likely to have takes on those subjects too. Here are couple of examples about subjects on WAN, but nope on forums:

 

[SansVarnic]

16 hours ago, 7heo said:

Since videos from LTT are mostly scripted, and have predefined talking points, it would not theoretically be too hard to feed that script/document to a robot,

The WAN Show has never followed the set outline. Many, numerous time they have completely disregarded the outline they set out to do, so as much as this would be a favorable thing to say, it doesnt work for WAN Show.

[7heo]

Either way, my initial request was about making a thread for the WAN show debriefing. Having it pre-filled with the relevant information would have been a bonus. It does not need the extra, I would still really like to have a thread to discuss it without having various threads across the forum...

[LogicalDrm]

2 hours ago, 7heo said:

Either way, my initial request was about making a thread for the WAN show debriefing. Having it pre-filled with the relevant information would have been a bonus. It does not need the extra, I would still really like to have a thread to discuss it without having various threads across the forum...

One thread for all WAN Shows? You can literally do it yourself. But ofc forum rules about topics of discussion would still stand.

 

You are talking about dedicated subforum in OP. Thats way different from one thread (to rule them all). As OP of any thread you have tools to update info, like select new post with timestamps/video link as Best Answer. (Moderators have these tools on any thread, see VAG for example).

[7heo]

3 hours ago, LogicalDrm said:

One thread for all WAN Shows?

No, one thread per WAN show, every week, with a link to the video, a reminder/disclaimer about being careful not to talk about topics that are against the rules; and all that posted in the LTT Official section. That would be dope!

 

Sorry I wasn't clear.

 

Edit: If the LTT team wants tools to do stuff like this, I would gladly volunteer to help, as long as there's no deadline

[BondiBlue]

20 minutes ago, 7heo said:

No, one thread per WAN show, every week, with a link to the video, a reminder/disclaimer about being careful not to talk about topics that are against the rules; and all that posted in the LTT Official section. That would be dope!

 

Sorry I wasn't clear.

 

Edit: If the LTT team wants tools to do stuff like this, I would gladly volunteer to help, as long as there's no deadline

It's in General Discussion, but I made this: 

I think a single thread with each new episode marked as the solution for visibility is a good way to have a good amount of discussion across the variety of topics covered on the WAN Show. 

[7heo]

1 hour ago, BondiBlue said:

a single thread with each new episode marked as the solution for visibility

That would make it quite painful to find past things; but I see how that would work for recent WAN shows. I guess that if nothing else happens, we'll have to do with that...

[BondiBlue]

1 minute ago, 7heo said:

That would make it quite painful to find past things; but I see how that would work for recent WAN shows. I guess that if nothing else happens, we'll have to do with that...

I can make a list with direct links to each episode, so it'll be easy to find the discussion related to each one. 

[7heo]

12 minutes ago, BondiBlue said:

I can make a list with direct links to each episode

I mean, if you do that in the first post, that would work.

 

I feel like this is basically like "doing different threads in a subsection" in a single thread; kinda like you would concatenate files in an archive instead of having a directory... It is not a bad idea, but still not as convenient as the subsection.

 

So, mods/staff, do you think the subsection will happen, or do we have to use @BondiBlue's solution and rely on them keeping it to date come rain or shine?

[Spotty]

There's no plans on adding a dedicated WAN show subforum. There's already LTT official which LTT staff could use if they wanted to post threads for WAN show, which is what they used to use. It's been 2 years since they've posted weekly WAN show threads so it's unlikely they have any plans to resume. They might see this interest in it and decide it's worth their time, they might not. 

 

The approach of having one thread to discuss every WAN show episode isn't a great idea. If people don't just ignore it (which is very likely) you'll end up with dozens of different topics being discussed in one thread and splitting the discussion from the dedicated threads for those topics (ie. tech news).

 

As I already mentioned you're better off creating a thread when there is a particular topic that you actually want to discuss (or use the existing discussion on that topic if there is one, such as the tech news threads that are often already being discussed before they make it on to the WAN show). That way the discussion stays focused on the topic and you're not having people repeat themselves (and repeat the same arguments) across multiple threads. 

 

On 8/1/2021 at 7:22 PM, Spotty said:

If there's a particular news topic that was discussed on the WAN show then check the Tech News subforum, many news topics discussed on the WAN show also have a discussion thread on the forum. If there's a tech related news topic they discuss that doesn't already have a discussion thread in the Tech News section then feel free to create one if you want to discuss it. If you want to discuss a more Linus-centric topic that isn't necessarily tech news, such as buying the wall or investing in framework from recent weeks WAN shows then feel free to create a topic to discuss those in General Discussion.

@7heo is there a reason or situation where creating a thread to discuss the topic that interests you wouldn't be suitable? 

[7heo]

14 hours ago, Spotty said:

The approach of having one thread to discuss every WAN show episode isn't a great idea. If people don't just ignore it (which is very likely) you'll end up with dozens of different topics being discussed in one thread and splitting the discussion from the dedicated threads for those topics (ie. tech news).

I agree entirely. This is what I was trying to say, but you did a much better job than I, so thank you

 

14 hours ago, Spotty said:

They might see this interest in it and decide it's worth their time, they might not.

It does not have to be their time. As previously said, I would gladly volunteer/help making the tools to make this possible, as it would profit me as well. I dunno exactly what the implementation of such a thing would look like, but I'm positive there are ways to populate a thread while having "sensitive" (as in prohibited) topics filtered out (and possibly reviewed/curated by mods or admins).

 

14 hours ago, Spotty said:

is there a reason or situation where creating a thread to discuss the topic that interests you wouldn't be suitable?

So, before answering your question, lemme make sure I precisely laid out my reasons for asking to have that WAN feedback thread(s) (skip if you feel like you already know why I asked):

 

I was hoping to leverage this community's potential, turning a monologue into a dialogue, while keeping things tidy, also helping the LTT staff to find feedback if they ever wanted to. There are numerous examples of topics about which Linus wishes to have community feedback; and he usually uses strawpoll.me to do so.

However that gives a very basic feedback, well suited given the quantity of participants; but I would expect a WAN forum thread (or multiple ones) to attract a lot less participants while at the same time improving the quality of that feedback.

There are also numerous examples of topics about which I wish to give feedback, and I would expect several members of the community to also wish to give (constructive - we're not talking about flaming or trolling here) feedback.

 

Now to answer your question:

I do not actually know with certainty what would fit better. My idea is not only for us to discuss, but also for Linux/Luke or the staff to easily find information we would like to communicate back.

I'm not sure the forum is the best way to do so, I'm not sure a thread per week is better than a single "rolling-release" one. I'm not sure of anything, come to think about it, but that I really wish to participate and make this a (filtered, I get that Linus and Luke's time are at a considerably high premium now) discussion more than a monologue (no matter how I appreciate listening to Linus talk for hours on end).