Thermaltake Toughpower Grand RGB 1200W

[daryoosh91]

I'm buying a Thermaltake Toughpower Grand RGB 1200W Platinum unit.  https://www.amazon.ca/Thermaltake-Toughpower-Crossfire-Continuous-PS-TPG-1200F1FAPU-1/dp/B077Z6DSXT/ref=sr_1_25?dchild=1&keywords=1000W+power+supply&qid=1627288736&s=electronics&sr=1-25

 

I can see that the iRGB 1200 is at the top of the tierlist, and the Grand RGB is way lower. This is where I'm confused.

 

Here are the Cybenetics reports for both of them. 

 

iRGB: http://members.cybenetics.report:5050/d/cybenetics_xAT_eu.pdf

Grand RGB: http://members.cybenetics.report:5050/d/cybenetics_P3N_eu.pdf

 

Now the tests are very similar, but the thing that stands out is every single component is the exact same, on the primary and secondary sides, and the 5VSB circuit. The one and only difference is the main switchers on the Grand are A26N60EFL, and A25N60EFL on the iRGB.

 

They both got the exact same certifications as well. So what makes one any different, let alone that much better? 

 

Any help is appreciated, thanks!

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, daryoosh91 said:

the Grand RGB is way lower.

I'm looking at the list right now and the Grand RGB Platinum is A+, as is the iRGB Plus, and both say they use the same CWT CST platform.  Not sure what you're looking at.

[Somerandomtechyboi]

Why do you even want rgb on your psu?

Its supposed to give you rock solid power delivery, not be a disco ball from the late 70s

 

Heck is rgb on the psu even that noticable?

Cause its usually the cooler, the ram, the case, and the mobo that has noticable rgb

[daryoosh91]

4 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

I'm looking at the list right now and the Grand RGB Platinum is A+, as is the iRGB Plus, and both say they use the same CWT CST platform.  Not sure what you're looking at.

I see Grand RGB Platinum in Tier C. In Tier 1 I see Grand (Non-RGB) Platinum / Grand RGB Gold. Also in this list https://www.gamingscan.com/psu-hierarchy/ the iRGB is S-tier and the Grand is Tier-1. Maybe I'm not understanding the abbreviations? Also thanks for the response man! Loved your forums so much.  

 

7 minutes ago, Somerandomtechyboi said:

Why do you even want rgb on your psu?

Its supposed to give you rock solid power delivery, not be a disco ball from the late 70s

 

Heck is rgb on the psu even that noticable?

Cause its usually the cooler, the ram, the case, and the mobo that has noticable rgb

Oh I 100% agree with you. They even advertise putting the PSU fan-up, cause how else could they market an RGB PSU hehe. I swap my PSU fans for Noctua or Arctic 140mm, unless they're already decent like the be quiet! models.

 

Basically, it's on sale from Amazon for $265 CAD and I thought it reviewed quite well, until I saw a lot of reported issues, this tierlist anomoly, and the fact that a couple of things don't work like the power-OK. Still going to grab it, unless there is a suggestion for something better maybe.

[Somerandomtechyboi]

12 minutes ago, daryoosh91 said:

I swap my PSU fans for Noctua or Arctic 140mm, unless they're already decent like the be quiet! models.

I consider doing this to my noisy psus and swapping them for a quieter fan

 

But i work with older psus aka 3$ oem psus and i think ill have to do some soldering on some of them

 

 

Are you doing this for quietness or better psu cooling?

[Mason Peterson]

16 minutes ago, daryoosh91 said:

 Also in this list https://www.gamingscan.com/psu-hierarchy/ the iRGB is S-tier and the Grand is Tier-1.

It's a shitty tierlist. Let's put Focus Plus, G3, GQ, GS, T2, M12ii all into same tier.

[Elisis]

17 minutes ago, daryoosh91 said:

I swap my PSU fans for Noctua or Arctic 140mm, unless they're already decent like the be quiet! models.

I feel sorry for your suffocating PSUs.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, daryoosh91 said:

I swap my PSU fans for Noctua or Arctic 140mm, unless they're already decent like the be quiet! models.

Wow!  That's a terrible idea.  My condolences.

 

[daryoosh91]

Can you clarify why it's wrong? I'd like to know if it's bad airflow-wise. I don't do it for cooling, I do it because loud fans bother me so I plug the fan into the motherboard and control them manually. 

[Elisis]

Just now, daryoosh91 said:

Can you clarify why it's wrong? I'd like to know if it's bad airflow-wise. I don't do it for cooling, I do it because loud fans bother me so I plug the fans into the motherboard and control them manually. 

The fans are loud for a reason... They're running at the RPMs they need to push the air that the heat-producing components require to not destroy themselves through the case.

[jaslion]

4 minutes ago, daryoosh91 said:

Can you clarify why it's wrong? I'd like to know if it's bad airflow-wise. I don't do it for cooling, I do it because loud fans bother me so I plug the fans into the motherboard and control them manually. 

Oh that is bad. The whole reason those normally barely active quiet fans are loud is because of the load being put on the psu. You controlling it manually is very bad as that means it is NOT going to cool like it should and drastically impact the life of your psu and can cause critical failure over time.

 

What are your specs now?

 

Also the tier list you linked is basically bs as a bunch of good and bad psu's are in the same tier.

 

This one is a lot better and more accurate to the current state of things

 

 

[daryoosh91]

4 minutes ago, jaslion said:

Oh that is bad. The whole reason those normally barely active quiet fans are loud is because of the load being put on the psu. You controlling it manually is very bad as that means it is NOT going to cool like it should and drastically impact the life of your psu and can cause critical failure over time.

 

What are your specs now?

My specs are 3800x, 3080 450W, X570, Straight Power 11 750.

 

I'm certainly not an expert in PSUs, but I am well-versed in case-fans. I know that my NF-A14 is pushing more air with a better SP rating than most fans at max RPM and is quieter than 2 of those stock PSU fans together. So unless there's something I'm missing here I don't see how swapping better fans is worse.

[jaslion]

1 minute ago, daryoosh91 said:

My specs are 3800x, 3080 450W, X570, Straight Power 11 750.

 

I'm certainly not an expert in PSUs, but I am well-versed in case-fans. I know that my NF-A14 is pushing more air with a better SP rating than most fans at max RPM and is quieter than 2 of those stock PSU fans together. So unless there's something I'm missing here I don't see how swapping better fans is worse.

Psu fans ARE DIFFERENT. They are not that comparable to case fans as they are a bit more specialized so you can't really make the statement that the nf is better without proper testing.

 

Now for why your current one is loud. Well you are basically pushing that thing over it's limit with that 3080 so yeah it runs HOT HOT. The 1200w upgrade is going to make a huge difference here and you should not have to (and please don't) replace the fan because the psu won't need to cool it's very hot running parts that much as it's not pushed to it's limits.

[Juular]

17 minutes ago, Mason Peterson said:

It's a shitty tierlist. Let's put Focus Plus, G3, GQ, GS, T2, M12ii all into same tier.

And then put Seasonic Prime Platinum and it's rebrand with a better fan - Corsair AX in different tiers lol.

[daryoosh91]

24 minutes ago, Elisis said:

The fans are loud for a reason... They're running at the RPMs they need to push the air that the heat-producing components require to not destroy themselves through the case.

To take this Thermaltake PSU for example, it comes with this fan: https://www.thermaltakeusa.com/riing-14-led-blue.html?___store=us#additional but in 256-color.

 

It's specs are 51.15 CFM and 1.58 pressure rating at 28.1 decibels. The Noctua NF-A14 is 140.8 CFM and 2.08 pressure rating at 24.6 decibels. 

 

Basically the Noctua is moving 2.75 times more air at a 31.6% higher pressure rating, at 3.5 decibels quieter. (Comparing both at MAX RPM)

 

This is why I swap fans, and plugging into the mobo lets me set it to wattage, CPU temp, GPU temp, etc.. which I don't since I just have hotkeys for profiles.

[daryoosh91]

4 minutes ago, jaslion said:

Psu fans ARE DIFFERENT. They are not that comparable to case fans as they are a bit more specialized so you can't really make the statement that the nf is better without proper testing.

 

Now for why your current one is loud. Well you are basically pushing that thing over it's limit with that 3080 so yeah it runs HOT HOT. The 1200w upgrade is going to make a huge difference here and you should not have to (and please don't) replace the fan because the psu won't need to cool it's very hot running parts that much as it's not pushed to it's limits.

My current PSU fan is not loud, nor is it swapped. It's a be quiet! fan in there, which is, not surprisingly, very quiet.

[Juular]

Just now, daryoosh91 said:

It's specs are 51.15 CFM and 1.58 pressure rating at 28.1 decibels. The Noctua NF-A14 is 140.8 CFM and 2.08 pressure rating at 24.6 decibels.

And these 'specs' are total bullshit, you need a complete PQ curve, not to mention that noise measurements are useless too unless they were done with the same methodology and hardware.

[daryoosh91]

1 minute ago, Juular said:

And these 'specs' are total bullshit, you need a complete PQ curve.

The pressure on the filter side is basically the same as radiators, case mesh, etc. and on the inside-side, it is affected exponentially less as distance increases, so PSU is not a special case. You can find the PQ curve, adjust it, if you cared to. I agree that they don't publish this info, but it doesn't matter. Let's not pretend that db/A. max static pressure and CFM rating get somehow warped because it's a power supply. 

[daryoosh91]

11 minutes ago, jaslion said:

Psu fans ARE DIFFERENT. They are not that comparable to case fans as they are a bit more specialized so you can't really make the statement that the nf is better without proper testing.

 

Now for why your current one is loud. Well you are basically pushing that thing over it's limit with that 3080 so yeah it runs HOT HOT. The 1200w upgrade is going to make a huge difference here and you should not have to (and please don't) replace the fan because the psu won't need to cool it's very hot running parts that much as it's not pushed to it's limits.

PSU fans are not different, there would be no reason other than sizing to make them different, which hasn't been done widely for years.

[Elisis]

4 minutes ago, daryoosh91 said:

PSU fans are not different

Except they are. Consider the differing starting voltages, and for PSU fans static pressure is of the utmost importance. Case and heatsink fans pale in comparison to those, y'know, designed for the workload.

[Juular]

11 minutes ago, daryoosh91 said:

you can find the PQ curve, adjust it, if you cared to.

How do you adjust the PQ curve exactly ? By replacing the whole-ass impeller ? Maybe it's better to not touch the damn thing in the first place ?

By replacing the PSU fan with the one it wasn't designed to run with you're putting the PSU at the risk of thermal runaway. And unless you have a professional testing equipment to see if the fan you're replacing the stock one with has indeed similar PQ curve - that's not going to happen, not to mention different RPM-DC response. These 'spherical cow' specs you see on fan spec pages aren't representative of the real world scenarios, they were measured in different conditions, on different hardware, with different methodologies. You can't just compare two fan spec sheets and say that :

18 minutes ago, daryoosh91 said:

Basically the 2.75 times more air at a 31.6% higher pressure rating, at 3.5 decibels quieter.

It doesn't work like that. You need testing.

Just stop. If you want to replace the fan in your PSU - do as you please, but you were warned.

PS: I mean, even if the head of Corsair PSU division, one of responsibilites of whom is to choose the right fan for their PSUs, tells you that this is bad idea then it may be actually the case, don't ya think ?

[daryoosh91]

48 minutes ago, Juular said:

How do you adjust the PQ curve exactly ? By replacing the whole-ass impeller ? Maybe it's better to not touch the damn thing in the first place ?

By replacing the PSU fan with the one it wasn't designed to run with you're putting the PSU at the risk of thermal runaway. And unless you have a professional testing equipment to see if the fan you're replacing the stock one with has indeed similar PQ curve - that's not going to happen, not to mention different RPM-DC response. These 'spherical cow' specs you see on fan spec pages aren't representative of the real world scenarios, they were measured in different conditions, on different hardware, with different methodologies. You can't just compare two fans and say that :

It doesn't work like that.

*This is an example, I know that this fan isn't installed in Corsair PSUs*

 

https://www.corsair.com/ca/en/Categories/Products/Fans/RGB-%26-LED-Fans/iCUE-QL-RGB-PWM-Fan/p/CO-9050100-WW#tab-tech-specs

 

Take Corsair's most expensive fan. It has a 1.4 mmH20 (max static pressure) rating, and a 50.2 CFM rating. This means it is a piece of shit fan. Like insanely terrible, which you can see tested in 10s of videos on YouTube and hundreds of articles online. You cannot pretend that changing environments makes this perform better than a fan with BOTH higher airflow AND higher pressure ratings (way higher for Arctic P14/Noctua A14). 

 

Noctua NF-A12x25 has 102.1/22.6, whereas the Noctua NF-F12 has 93.4/2.61. This means that depending on the situation, one will perform better, because one has a higher CFM at lower max pressure, and one lower CFM at higher max pressure.

 

Cheap fans that come in almost all PSUs have BOTH low CFM and low mmH20. Like ridiculously low. There is no magical universe where they can perform better than a fan with higher airflow/pressure, especially fans with almost triple the CFM and more than double the max pressure rating, like Noctuas.

 

So if you run a Noctua at 20% RPM, it will move more air through a single power supply than 3 Corsair PSUs combined. 

 

https://blog.orientalmotor.com/fan-basics-air-flow-static-pressure-impedance If you want to learn about airflow.

 

 

[daryoosh91]

18 minutes ago, Juular said:

It doesn't work like that.

As far as noise, again, MAX. Do you see the pattern? They don't include a curve...they include a max. Now you can go change your worthless PSU fan, because you learned something. Or do you have more reasons to believe that garbage fans magically become great when put inside a PSU?

[Elisis]

4 minutes ago, daryoosh91 said:

Take Corsair's most expensive fan. It has a 1.4 mmH20 (max static pressure) rating, and a 50.2 CFM rating. This means it is a piece of shit fan. Like insanely terrible, which you can see tested in 10s of videos on YouTube and hundreds of articles online. You cannot pretend that changing environments makes this perform better than a fan with BOTH higher airflow AND higher pressure ratings (way higher for Arctic P14/Noctua A14). 

And this fan is not used in any PSU. Your point is moot.

[daryoosh91]

1 hour ago, Juular said:

How do you adjust the PQ curve exactly ?

I mean apply, and you should be able to apply available PQ curves if you know the behavior of the basic shape of a power supply. Just assume they're going to be covered with a filter, and have a hexagon grill thing on the back. Will you be able to pick a winner between 2 similar fans? No, but that isn't the objective here. First, the fans that you know are slapped on case fans, can easily be assumed to be inferior to a better case fan. 

 

Compared to the fans like Powerlogic's 135mm fbd, if I know what RPM/noise it's running at at load, and yes if I trust the curve they provide, I can figure out whether I should swap it out or not. You're right that one cannot know, but judging from their own numbers, even the best systems have fans that are rated loud, and high mmH20, but not higher CFM. Here's NFA14 and others https://www.overclock.net/threads/official-noctua-a14-fans-p-q-curves-and-more.1710688/.

 

Cool and dandy, but in the case of case-fans in PSUs...If you have ever actually used a good fan, you will know it is much quieter at max settings than other fans. Now you can go see trusted tests, of many fans in many configs in many scenarios, and see that they align in practical use with the measurements from any tool, like one you can buy from Amazon to test airflow, or expensive machines like GamersNexus's. Knowing one moves 3 times more air at a double pressure rating, why would you think one would be anything but louder if it was normalized for airflow, or anything but like at least 4 times weaker, when normalized for noise? Hmm.